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The future of Linux

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Banjo...

If you haven't set your URPMI sources using easyurpmi then you will have problems ...

 

Its one of the best things about Mandrake. (an essential in my view - I wouldn't use MDK without it) If I didn't have internet access I think I'd use Suse and hate it!

 

If you want backports then Debian is the way to go... it only really happens in a completely non commerical environment. (This is posted from AMD64 Debian) but unless you have an obsession with not changing the version then MDK is pretty good at this but you do need to keep your sources updated. (see bvc's post) but like Iphitus says there is no reason to have the latest cooker and if you do expect it to break...its work in progress. The whole release thing is pretty much fashion...trends etc. and unless the particualr prob with Quanta is in previous versions and not just a bug in the version you have then perhaps could be solved for now by downgrading or perhaps just going to a intermediate version?

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Gowator wrote:

 

and unless the particualr prob with Quanta is in previous versions and not just a bug in the version you have then perhaps could be solved for now by downgrading or perhaps just going to a intermediate version?

 

Thanks for that tip. It never occurred to me to downgrade. I really use very few

of the fancy features of most apps. I tend to stick to the basics. So a downgrade

could be just the ticket.

 

But I did not aim my discussion at getting my particular issues with the apps solved.

I will work that out eventually. My point was to add to the discussion about why

the Linux desktops are not taking over the market. Linux desktops are so obviously

superior to fnWindoze (at least to me) that it is puzzling why they have not already

destroyed fnWindoze completely.

 

And yet, when I talk it up to people I know, they say "That is really cool, but

it is too hard for me" and then they go back to their crashing, spamming, fnWindoze

system and tolerate it. I don't get it. We are missing something.

 

Here is another interesting quote, from iphitus

banjo: the thing is new versions of Linux programs come out at like 5 times the rate of windows programs, its evolving at such a rate that yoursystem is 'old' after half a year, whereas with windows, office is every year or so, as are most programs.

 

So, maybe the problem is that we are still playing catchup, and it is still a waiting

game before we take over. My poor old Mandy 9.1 is so far superior to any fnWindows

system that it is hard to imagine what 10.x has in it. It must be really nice.

 

I will have to investigate an upgrade.

 

 

Linux rocks!

 

Banjo

(_)=='=~

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UrpmX is 10 times what it was 2 years ago.

Is apt still better? I think so, but not by much.

urpmi has always worked very well for me. I agree there's not much to choose from between apt vs urpmi anymore.

One reason I've stuck with Mandrake is urpmi and that I still think rpm's will win out as the default Linux ".exe" equivilent of the future. For example, I just bought Symantec's pcAnywhere 11.5, partly because it offers Linux support now (to a point anyway). It only supports installation on "Red Hat Linux, Red Hat Enterprise Linux WS/ES, SuSE Professional, or SuSE Enterprise Server" - all rpm-based distros. I don't see anything changing the situation. More likely, eventually .deb or source-based distros will eventually need to offer rpm installation, as least as an option, to support commercial Linux software.

(And no, I haven't tried to install pcAnywhere on MDK 10.1. I use it to connect to Win hosts at my office. Has Java Browser-based support only for Linux remotes right now, and I don't need or want to install and run the Linux host application on Linux here at home. But I may try just to see if I can.)

 

I recently thought I was going to have to finally reinstall mandrake after what??? 2 years

I ran the same 8.2 install for almost 3 years, through many, many upgrades and modifications. Never became unstable or f*scked up in any way despite my not knowing what the heck I was doing much of the time. I could've used the same 8.2 install happily for another 3 years, but decided it was just time to make a move to 10.1, go to Xorg, 2.6 kernel, etc. My club membership let me ftp the 10.1 Power Pack, so why not? And, like going from Win98 to Win2000, it has been a very worthwhile upgrade, if not really necessary.

 

But to get back to the thread subject...I think there's 4 things holding Linux back from catching on with desktop users, mostly unrelated to Linux itself as far as it's quality or capabilities. Not that any of the rant below is new, but in no particular order...

 

1. You can't run to Best Buy, CompUSA, etc and grab a desktop or laptop with Linux pre-installed and assorted software to go with it. So most people are unaware they have another option, except for a few who know there's something called a Mac. Most people think of Apple as the Beatles' record label.

 

2. Business users have a large investment in licenses for Windows, Office, etc, but that's not really the problem. It's the much larger investment compaies have in custom-made Windoze software, including my company's, as an example. Our proprietary managment software is probably *never* going to be ported to Linux. Emulation such as Win4Lin is the only solution for these apps. That's OK to a point, but there's other problems...

 

3. Many businesses, and more all the time (like mine, again, for example) have to do business over websites which *require* IE (6 SP1 or later) in order to run features using DirectX, VBS, or IE-only custom plugins. Firefox, Opera - no matter how much better they are than IE - are simply not an option. Gotta have Windoze and IE6. This is the unsurmountable problem in moving my office desktops to Linux.

 

4. Linux and Mac both have the same problem trying to get people to switch. People are comfortable with what they're familar with, and Windoze is what people know, at least what little they do know. Keep in mind that most Windoze users don't know how to do even simple things like create and copy folders. It was very hard for most users just to learn doing the most basic computer things, like how to turn it on, go on the web or do email. They don't want to fool with starting over with a new system, even if such doing simple tasks actually are functionally basically the same (click "Check email" button, click "Bookmarks" button, etc). It's too scary to them. So they stay with Windoze, IE, Outhouse Express, stuff they at least know the name of and where a few buttons are.

 

Think of it as kinda like changing from a car with a steering wheel and pedals to one with a joystick to steer and buttons for brakes and gas. It would be a better system, offering easier, quicker, even safer and more accurate control of the vehicle, but how do you convince people who've used a steering wheel and pedals all their life to buy newfangled joystick cars and learn to drive again? Just too scary for most. They'd rather stay with the familiar than learn something better.

 

All that said, I still think Linux is definetly the future, we're just gonna have to be really patient. The rest of the world will forge ahead of the U.S., while we try to legislate the M$ monopoly (a U.S. company with global domination) into permanancy - which will of course fail and fail ugly, costing the U.S. in ways we can't yet imagine...

 

But then, what do *I* know?

Edited by Crashdamage

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My honest opinion. Linux will/maybe/might someday be almost as popular as windows. The only thing that is holding it back is human nature and Crashdamage touched on it just a little. Human nature especially in the U.S. (yes I'm American) is lazyness. People are happy with the easiness of windows. Double click and install/go whatever. Part of it maybe not wanting to learn, but I think most of it is because Windows is so damn easy to run, use, install, setup, than linux, in most cases. Java, just double click. Flash, just double click. Sharing between pcs, just double click. No terminal involved. People/humans are lazy. They like to take the easy way out. Even though they have to learn how to run antivirus/adware/spyware software they don't really understand or notice they are doing extra work to run those apps to keep their pc safe. Why? Cause again its just download the app and double click and boom its installed and running and they think they are safe.

 

What gets me is simple things like java and flash. Why can't all distros come with this running. I know that Slackware that comes with java and flash working. Now if Slackware can do it, why can't they all come with such simple and "internet" needed apps running. The big 3 don't. Mandrake/Fedora/Ubuntu (ok Ubunut is only in 4 but thats besides the point . ;P ) have java/flash working for the get go.

 

Just my simple observations of what is going on. I have converted a couple of people to use Linux to some extent. They seem to enjoy it and really didn't find it that hard to 'install" ( mandrake and ubuntu), but they have asked me questions about setting certain things up. These are computer savy people too. Two are network admins. and one is going to school for computers. Now granted I didn't help them out much, but still gave a hand here and there. If people that have degrees in computing are going to be asking questions on how to get this/that working, how to setup their urpmi or apt sources what do you think the average homeowner is going to do with linux. I took it on myself to learn and use linux, but the neighbors who I installed it for don't want to take the time to learn it. Why, cause windows is on the other parition and all they have to do is double click. They don't have to worry about windows coming out with a new version or update. (I'm talking like updates like going from gnome 2.4 to 2.6 to 2.8 or kernel updates). Yet his wife always complains about this spyware and this adware/malware program on her pc. I tell her, boot to Linux and run that, but still she runs windows and keeps fighting with the crap. Why, cause to her even though you have viri and malware with Windows, in her mind windows is easier to run.

 

Now that I just babbled for a couple of paragraphs and really didn't say anything. My point is. Until linux becomes easier to run and biggest point because its evoling fast, easier to 'update/upgrade' it will be awhile before it even gets close to windows.

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bvc: I didnt say it was impossible, but running cooker isnt really intended for the average user,

 

iphitus

Ah.... but running a debian unstable is no diff. Yet, it's ok? cooker isn't? :wall:

 

there's lots of average users running debian unstable but people scream about cooker? :wall:

 

twice, debian fried an install...urpmi? 0

 

 

 

 

2. Business users have a large investment in licenses for Windows, Office, etc, but that's not really the problem. It's the much larger investment compaies have in custom-made Windoze software, including my company's, as an example. Our proprietary managment software is probably *never* going to be ported to Linux. Emulation such as Win4Lin is the only solution for these apps. That's OK to a point, but there's other problems...

 

3. Many businesses, and more all the time (like mine, again, for example) have to do business over websites which *require* IE (6 SP1 or later) in order to run features using DirectX, VBS, or IE-only custom plugins. Firefox, Opera - no matter how much better they are than IE - are simply not an option. Gotta have Windoze and IE6. This is the unsurmountable problem in moving my office desktops to Linux.

there's 2 big reasons for the big picture but they don't effect the average user/desktop. Edited by bvc

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I think that Crashdamage and FX have hit the problem on the head.

They articulated it much better than I did.

 

My entire family has been converted to Linux for a year and a half now.

It took about a day for them to get used to it and learn how to use it. Even

my wife, who has little knowledge of how computers work, just jumped right

in and started using it. So much for ease of use. Mandrake is already there.

 

But they have me for their sys admin. And therein lies the rub, because I have

been using Unix since 1975, and I set this thing up and keep it running. It has

been tricky at times, even for me. So, until we can get by that problem, Linux

will not grab the desktop away from fnWindoze.

 

Banjo

(_)=='=~

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My point is. Until linux becomes easier to run and biggest point because its evoling fast, easier to 'update/upgrade' it will be awhile before it even gets close to windows.

 

My partner and her daughter went *straight* from a winblows environment to Mandrake - and to be honest, they use it just as - Office applications, internet, email, music, games, blah de blah - just about everything the average user would use. Furthermore, work can be saved with M$Office compatibilty for use at work - brilliant. They have never ever (in 8+ months) been *stuck* using it - mdk 9.2/10 the only times we've had problems is when I play around on the network :P No need to worry about virus defence, spyware blah de blah. Turn it on, use it, turn it off.

 

OK, I do the updating, only because I 'have to' - so I've suggested they get mandrakeonline for auto security updating - much the same way it would happen when running winblows with AV/Firewall etc. Heck, I've even got my partner to download iso's/burn em - and she thought it was a treat cos her hardware could and mine wouldn't!

 

Whats more amenable is the cost we've saved - 4 PCs (networked), to be legal on M$ would cost a stack. Plus, we don't have the security issues running 98/XP etc - more of a bonus.

 

I use these forums cos I wanna learn and develop - my partner just want to use the darn thing - which she does, with relative ease.

 

But look in comparison to some winblows users I know. I work in a samll office. I'm not the IT guy - in fact I never really took any kind of interest in IT stuff at all, until I started using MDK. But just because i didn't take an interest didn't mean to say I was hopeless, not at all. I learnt because I had to to (say to use an application) or because its a darn site easier learning the fundamentals than having too continually ring round mates to do this, that or the other - or worse, pay silly money to some PC World 'expert' to put a plug, wire or a screw in somewhere! So I'm now the unofficial IT guy at the office - winblows XP networked - confidential data in some files.

 

I say, "as this PC acts as the network server, don't let it be used as a desktop" - so its always used as a desktop.

 

I then create 2 users - 1 admin 1 general user. I say " don't use admin unless you really need to. Don't let anyone else use admin at all. If the admin account is used, always log out for security" - how many times have I looked at the box to find someones been downloading s**te on the admin account - and leaving it open for all and sundry.

 

I'm asked virtually everyday - how do you do this that and the other - even though I've told them how to do this that and the other a half dozen times before. And I'm talking simple stuff like how/where to save stuff, send to print to a particular printer, put an attachment in an email, restart the bloody network - that kind of stuff. And I know people who have problems understanding the concept of installing drivers for a winblows environement - even though its clickity click stuff.

 

Worse still. My boss has recently invested in at least 3 or 4 spanking Dells and a Lappy for public use in the training room that is hired. I say, he needs virus defence/firewalls all round - how many has he bought - zip, in about 4 months or so *(hey the dells come with 30 days of protection :o !!)

 

He knows I've dual booted my desktop with Mandrake. I've tried convincing him of the benefits, but will he listen, nah!

 

What I'm getting at here, is its all about peoples attitudes. You can be put in front of something a little alien and just get on with it, learn it and use it. I've offered to put M$ back on my partners machine, but she won't have any of it now. Or, you can be given a brand new shiny PC running XP and you can just be totally ignorant in its use and security - then one day you'll be bitten badly on the arse but by then it'll be too late.

 

If Mandrake can develop something like Mandrake online (for a lot less the cost of AV software) - click click updates done, then surely something in a similar vein could be developed for urpmi/MCC - get over that and whats the major problem (other than gaming)? Pre installed yes of course, marketing - badly needed, get it to work on a number of modems (speedtouch hell comes to mind here) and away you can go - plug and play.

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...

3. Many businesses, and more all the time (like mine, again, for example) have to do business over websites which *require* IE (6 SP1 or later) in order to run features using DirectX, VBS, or IE-only custom plugins.  Firefox, Opera - no matter how much better they are than IE - are simply not an option.  Gotta have Windoze and IE6.  This is the unsurmountable problem in moving my office desktops to Linux.

this is not really a problem of the internetbrowser you are using but the webpage-coder who was lazy/ignorant. everything that can be done with ie can be done with opera, netscape, mozilla, firefox,... it just needs to be coded.

4. Linux and Mac both have the same problem trying to get people to switch.  People are comfortable with what they're familar with, and Windoze is what people know, at least what little they do know. 
there were times before windows. somehow people also managed to work with commodore, amiga, amstrad, sinclair, atari etc. and these were absolutely more problematic/difficult to use, compared to todays systems. you and almost everyone else underestimates the ability of people to learn some things. if i do point and click on OS1 or OS2 is irrelevant. the basic procedure is always the same and people will only have problems, adjusting to new operating systems, if they are absolutely refusing to learn ANYTHING. if you buy a new car, the basic tools are still the same. but you have to think where e.g. the radio is located now. is this soooo difficult? nah....
Keep in mind that most Windoze users don't know how to do even simple things like create and copy folders.  It was very hard for most users just to learn doing the most basic computer things, like how to turn it on, go on the web or do email.
how can such people survive? how do they manage to open a can, make some coffee, how to use a spoon (and for what!?!) and how do they change clothes? oh my god.... :end:

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Keep in mind that most Windoze users don't know how to do even simple things like create and copy folders.  It was very hard for most users just to learn doing the most basic computer things, like how to turn it on, go on the web or do email.
how can such people survive? how do they manage to open a can, make some coffee, how to use a spoon (and for what!?!) and how do they change clothes? oh my god.... :end:

 

 

Aye, t'is true...some people (I think to say 'most' is a bit over qualified really)just do not want to know , it's a kind of 'ignorance is bliss' outlook... almost a well why can't I just take it out of the box and use it immediately (even tho I never used one before):lol2: until something goes wrong and then the whole world and his dog is to blame.

 

as for making coffee...try explaining the concept of only putting enough water in the kettle for what is actually needed...you get looks as if the world will burn (but they have no part to play in it :wall: )

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artic:

this (requirinjg IE) is not really a problem of the internetbrowser you are using but the webpage-coder who was lazy/ignorant. everything that can be done with ie can be done with opera, netscape, mozilla, firefox,... it just needs to be coded.

I partly agree. I disagree that anything that can be done with IE can be done with other browsers. Opera, Firefox, etc will never (thank God) do DirectX, VBS or custom-made IE-only plugins.

I totally agree that it's lazy/ignorant webpage coders. No browser should ever need use any of that crap. Any coder that uses it on their pages should have a Mandrake CD stuffed up his butt. But the reality is they do, so IE6 is, at least for some of us, an evil necessity not about to go away soon.

 

...you and almost everyone else underestimates the ability of people to learn some things.

Nah, you misunderstand my point. Most people certainly aren't that stupid, they have the *ability*. What they lack is the *willingness*. Short supply of that.

 

how can such people survive? how do they manage to open a can, make some coffee, how to use a spoon (and for what!?!) and how do they change clothes? oh my god....

Hey, day-to-day life is pretty challenging for a lot of people...I struggled for years about which end of the toothbrush to grab...

 

BTW, I stand by what I said about most Windblows users not being able to do simple tasks like create/copy folders/files. Betcha if you put 100 randomly picked, ordinary Winshaft users (including those that who claim they use computers everyday at work) in front of a simple Win98 box and asked them to turn it on, create a folder, put some files in it, and copy the folder to a different location, over 50% could not do it without help. Users like that, who don't want to *learn* anything, "Just tell me what to click to get my email..." are what Windoze went after and successfully got. Well, good for you, Billy Bob Gates, and how about a smalll loan?

But real-world computer "expertise" like that makes migration to Linux or Macs seem awfully difficult, no matter how easy it installs and configures itself.

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In fact, I believe there would be a niche for a distro, which is made for the people we IT guys are laughing at. I mean, soooo many people have asked a simple question "why computing is so complicated". And honestly, I can't give a good answer. Could think that simple things are also simple to create...but still we tend to have "bigger is better"-syndrome. And how we're reacting to user inconfidence? Laughing and joking, yes. Basicly, "we are smarter/better people than you are"-attitude. I hate that...

 

Just a very basic GUI on Linux would be needed. Only the few options: internet connection, emails, instant messanging, music player and a word processor. For example. Of course when installing OS user could select from the very limited number of choices what (s)he would like to use. But the main thing is to keep simple. Give them what they want, uh? We may find it restrictive, but for them it's a benefit.

 

I mean, the main thing most of people use their computers isn't the beauty of computing. They want to pay their bills, chat with their friends. Their relation is more pragmatic (I hope it's the right word) than ours. And what important: they don't give a damn if there are two OSs, M & L. And if there are dozen of different painting programs. If they get their chores done, great. And nothing else matters...so if there's an OS marketing itself as being easy-to-use and there's an other one being technically advanced and maybe easy-to-use, then there's no doubt will the user choose the MS products.

 

I guess a OS like that could be a tough competitor for Windows. I feel that IT people are all "donquijotes" when trying to get everybody interested of computing. No, that won't happen - unfortunately. So, if the mountain isn't getting nearer to us, then...

 

Sorry, I again started preaching. But hope somebody can find the clue...

Edited by Huerzo

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If you track down all of the technology that is required just to type an email and send

it, people would be amazed at how complex it all is. There are thousands of pieces of

hardware and software that must work together to get that job done. There are

dozens of protocols that must be used and millions of lines of code. Any one of

them can go wrong and make it all stop. When people ask me how it works, and

I try to explain it, they glaze over immediately.

 

But then, if you track down all of the technology that makes your car run, you will

also have the same situation, including material science, physics, mechanics, chemistry,

and.......... egad.......... even software these days. And yet idiots still learn to drive their

cars.

 

The mass market is in selling to the idiots. That is where Billy Gates has made

his dough. Linux needs to be made superficially understandable by idiots.

Perhaps we need to sell Linux computers with everything pre-installed and

a maximum of three buttons on it. We could include one of those no-words,

pictures-only instruction sheets that explain what the three buttons do.

Then we sell it cheap, say $300.

 

Since Linux is so much more stable than fnWinblows, the help desk for such a

product would be a lot less busy than the Dell or Gateway help desk.

 

I think there is a market there to be tapped.

 

Banjo

(_)=='=~

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I'm working part time fixing windows computers...in promoting linux, I'm actually trying to eliminate my job, and I gladly will. Since even if I lose my job, I could work instead as a linux support person and things are much better documented - open source software is much more fixable than closed source. Many useless, redundant IT jobs will vanish, but many new ones will be created as well if Linux wins.

 

Maybe some IT people only see the first part of what I said - that's why they're going to fight the spread of Linux, but in the end, they'll lose. The price/performance gap is just too big for Microsoft to hold back for long.

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Fry's Electronics already sells an inexpensive $300 pc with linux on it. The only people that buy it are those either know how to install and configure win or linux users that want a cheap pc ;) I'm about to buy one since my back up pc bit the dust and it cost less for the same specs if I bought the hardware and put it together myself. :D

 

are you crazy?!? Helpdesk are not reduced because of stabilty. Stability has nothing to do with helpdesk. If what you say is true this and so many other forums wouldn't be so busy ;)

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I think the thing that strikes me as being one of the things I love most about Linux is mentioned by Banjo when he says that he contacted the quantas developer directly for help and received it. How often does that happen on the windoz side of the fence??

I had an error in burning something using K3b the other day, the error message stated to e-mail me (the developer) the above error report.

You gotta love that kind of community and group dynamics.....

 

Capn

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