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pbpersson

The future of Linux

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Urpmi is still a blackbox for me. I'm not sure how to use it properly.

Last time I looked at the recommended sources, I could not find the

upgrade packages I was looking for. I have lost the details of that

adventure. What sources do you use?

 

I also have seen a pointer on this board about how to set up Easy Urpmi,

but I have lost that as well.

 

Banjo

(_)=='=~

 

 

Hey Banjo

 

Easy Urpmi FAQ here at MUB

 

Also, checkout aRTee's site

 

for using urpmi and relevant links

 

Remember, Easy Urpmi link is also available at the top of the MUB pages

 

But I guess this is now straying :offtopic::oops: sorry all.

 

EDIT: TWiki has a site called "All You Ever Wanted to Know About Urpmi But Never Dared Asking Before" which can be found here

Edited by ChrisM

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I am no fan of fnWindows, but fnWindoze application upgrades

often get installed with a minimum of heartburn (or they trash

your entire system, but hey.....).

 

That's the point.

 

'We' are out here complaining about how 'hard' things are to do in Linux. They aren't any harder than things in Windows. These kazillions of posts on the web of people complaining about how 'hard' Linux is is what keeps people from trying it. I've been using Linux for, what, 3 years now...and it has been my exclusive OS for the past year and a half. Windows will never again be on my hard drive. I do miss some of my games, but until enough people stop buying those games because they don't work in Linux, they aren't going to make Linux ports.

 

Have any of you ever tried to install Windows without driver disks? It's even a nightmare with driver disks alot of times if you don't install your drivers in the right order.

 

As for the Quanta issue...remove all your urpmi sources...add the next MDK release's sources and urpmi quanta...what's so hard about that?

 

People are lazy...thank God. They'd rather pay me $200 to come fix their broken Windows than to learn to use another OS. They point and they click and they click 'Yes' and 'Continue' their computers into oblivion. When they get tired of paying me to come fix it, they buy another computer.

 

Anyway, Linux will grow when we, the Linux users, let it grow. Stop bitching about how 'hard' this or that was. Remember the popups and the adware and the trojans and the going out to buy another program to make the programs you already bought work again.

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but Banjo, that problem exists on windows.

 

I'm running IE4 on Win95, but IE4 sucks, I want IE6....

I have to upgrade to 98.

 

Many software packages do the same, they only run on XP now.

Latest version of windows media player afaik is XP only.

 

Its not a unique problem.

You're on mandrake 9.1, you should upgrade to 10 or 10.1. Or another distro. 9.1 does not support newer quanta version.

 

From a developers side, im with the quanta developers here, Linux is evolving at a faster rate than windows is, and this means more features and power is available to the developers using the GTK, QT and other libs. We want to use these, not idle back and use old stuff. Besides, if i continued to write application X so it would support all the past Kdelibs and QT versions, i would have to go to extensive work, and this in turn, will mean I cannot use newer features. Which would in turn reduce the consistency of the interface.

 

Sorry, but thats not a problem there Banjo, You're using an old version, dont expect it to work with the newest stuff.

 

iphitus

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1) A user has an application on fnWindoze that s/he likes.

2) App has a major show-stopper bug.

3) User asks about it and the answer is "upgrade"

4) User downloads later version and installs it ... problem solved

 

 

Banjo

(_)=='=~

 

I work for a software development firm and we of course only deal with Windows. When a user contacts us with an old version from 2002 we will not even talk to them until they upgrade. They must at least be on Windows 98 but NT, 2000, or XP is preferred. They must install MSDE (SQL server lite) which typically means they must upgrade their hardware or buy an entirely new system. They must upgrade their MDAC and Jet Libraries, they must be running a fairly new version of IE, and they must be able to load the .NET framework (which leaves out all our customers that use Windows NT 4.0 terminal server edition).

 

I don't want you to think that a Windows person who has not upgraded for a couple of years has an easy time of it either. :wall:

 

 

Phil

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I think that I need to clarify my statements.

 

I am NOT defending fnWindoze at all. I bailed out of fnWindoze upon

the first announcement of the WinXP fiasco. I run strictly Linux, and my

current system is Mandy 9.1. It works great. I love it. It is a rock compared

to my old Dell with fnWindoze 98SE (which crashes three or four times

a day).

 

My statement was directed at the problem that Linux is having of

taking over the mass desktop market. The perception is that it

is too hard to use. I find that, for me, fnWindoze is harder to work

with than Linux because everything MUST be done using their

fnWizards, and you never know what it is doing to your system.

My Linux is open, so I can make it do what I want it to do.

 

But......... the desktop market is not going to be gained by addressing

the system toward those of us who understand this stuff. My

suggestion was not intended to make Linux "better", and it certainly

was not to complain about it or say it is "hard". It was intended as

a suggestion to make it more.......... um........ how do I say this?.......

"presentable" to the general population.

 

I believe that the original topic of this post was "The future of Linux.

Will it ever catch on?"

 

It has not caught on in the general population. The folks who are moving

to Linux are the cognescenti, who understand how much better it is.

The mass market lies in the millions of people who use computers without

having a clue. I think we have shot ourselves in the foot in that regard.

 

Just my $0.02. The people I have tried to sell on Linux have

indicated to me that they could never deal with it. I know that they

would run right back to their old fnWindoze box, viruses and trojans

and all, at the first page of alphabet soup that shows up on an install.

The mass market desktop belongs to the OS that deals with that

issue.

 

BTW, this is a great board. As a help desk, this blows away any

of the fnWindoze help desks that expect you to sit on hold for 20

minutes just to reach the cleaning lady in India who tells you to

reinstall the OS.

 

Banjo

(_)=='=~

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I think that I need to clarify my statements.

 

I am NOT defending fnWindoze at all. I bailed out of fnWindoze upon

the first announcement of the WinXP fiasco. I run strictly Linux, and my

current system is Mandy 9.1. It works great. I love it. It is a rock compared

to my old Dell with fnWindoze 98SE (which crashes three or four times

a day).

 

But......... the desktop market is not going to be gained by addressing

the system toward those of us who understand this stuff. My

suggestion was not intended to make Linux "better", and it certainly

was not to complain about it or say it is "hard". It was intended as

a suggestion to make it more.......... um........ how do I say this?.......

"presentable" to the general population.

 

 

Banjo

(_)=='=~

 

You are comparing Win98 with something modern. You need to stay in the same era. Compare Win98 to RedHat 5.0 and see which one works better. In 2000 I was using Windows NT and compared it to RedHat 6.2. In RedHat I couldn't get anything to work and applications either did not do what I expected them to do or they would just crash. I obviously stayed with NT because it worked.

 

In 2005 we can compare Mandrake 10.1 to Windows XP. They both work, they work well, they are stable, and I like them. Sometimes when I install defective software in Windows the OS will get "weird" and I need to reboot. I have already hung Mandrake 10.1 a few times just by clicking on some wrong options and had to cold boot. I now have applications that crash. It's software and nothing is perfect.

 

I have been approaching Linux from a "Joe user" point of view - I don't want to know about the kernel, I don't want to recompile source code, etc. I have been very impressed with URPMI and it has made things quite easy for me - except when I get crazy and install too many options. In a corporate environment the network admin is the one that needs to know the OS and how to configure it, the users just need to know the applications. A stripped down Linux desktop with only the most functional applications I think would work very well in a corporate environment. The users would not have root so they could never install new software.

 

You had made a comment about application programs always requiring the newest libraries. Let us say that I write software in 2005 that will work on some old 1998 library. Can I be assured that in 2005 Mandrake 10.1 has library functions that will duplicate exactly what was available in 1998? Can I always be assured in the future that when my program makes a function call the 1998 library listings will be there and will work as I expect them to?

 

 

Phil

Edited by pbpersson

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Can I always be assured...

 

Without going too philosophical...I think the only things we can always be assured of is the fact that technology, both software and hardware, will continue to develop and change. Until such time as 'Omnipotent OS' is developed - I will stick with Linux. It has its issues to be sure, but I can do whatever I want about them.

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Banjo, you think the Linux installers are an alphabet soup, go put in a windows XP install and watch it boot up, then tell me a newbie could deal with that.

 

Linux won't go mainstream on the desktop till it's put on the desktops by the vendors. Many users out there wouldnt know what a folder or partition, and wouldnt be able to either conciously see the difference between XP and Linux, nor make the switch.

 

We need vendors to preinstall Linux, all setup and running. And some are starting to, so we are on the way.

 

iphitus

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We need vendors to preinstall Linux, all setup and running. And some are starting to, so we are on the way.

 

I think that this is partially true. One of the ways that Billy Gates made such massive

inroads into the desktop was to force the vendors to pay for fnWindows for every

PC that they sold........ whether they actually installed it or not. So they installed it.

 

However, there currently are vendors who install Linux on PC's. You can

buy 'em online at WalMart, and I think that Dell offers them too. They don't sell in

large quantities.

 

One more story. I have a Dell with Win98SE on it. The whole setup is about

six years old. When I set up my Verizon DSL a couple of months ago, I had to

use it because the setup program required fnWindoze. When I ran the setup

program it complained about my old browser (IE 4) and it installed a new one

(IE 6) and wham, bam, thank you ma'am, it was done. No alphabet soup. No

OS upgrade. No gibberish to read. No tutorials to search.

 

On a 6 year old, out-of-date platform.

 

I got lucky.

 

My linux box is less than two years old. Hardware and software both.

 

I cannot upgrade my apps without jumping through hoops. As I said, this is not

a problem for me because I understand that the technology has moved on. I

have simply not had time to upgrade. But most of the computer users I know,

especially the home computers, would find that appalling. Right or wrong, they

think that is barbaric.

 

I can't put my finger on exactly what is wrong, but it feels like the Linux camp

is missing a piece for getting regular folks to use it.

 

I have a colleague at work who has a PhD in physics. He has inherited his wife's

old computer to play with because he got her a new one. He was going to put

WinXP on it until he saw the price. So, I burned him a Knoppix CD and gave it to

him so he could try out Linux. He booted it, and was blown away. With no

installation at all, in five minutes he was surfing the net on his old PC on Linux.

You cannot make an OS that is easier to use than that.

 

"Works just like Windows" he said. Then he took out the CD and put it in the

drawer and went back to fnWindows. He is trying to find a cheaper way to

get WinXP.

 

Something is missing.

 

Banjo

(_)=='=~

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banjo: the thing is new versions of Linux programs come out at like 5 times the rate of windows programs, its evolving at such a rate that yoursystem is 'old' after half a year, whereas with windows, office is every year or so, as are most programs.

 

The other thing is, that mandrake isnt designed to be kept up to date the way you want it, its not designed to upgrade to the latest version of everything. You wouldnt have to jump through hoops if you had urpmi setup with mirrors for 9.1. You just wouldnt have the latest.

 

If you desire the latest so much, then either go cooker or another distro, like ubuntu.

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As long as people are told and believe that "instant" computing is safe and reliable, there will be windows. Remember that "trusted computing" means that everything will be windows or the computer won't work. Soon, there will be two internets: the windows one and the real internet. Oh, the real one will have us criminals on it.

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The other thing is, that mandrake isnt designed to be kept up to date the way you want it, its not designed to upgrade to the latest version of everything. You wouldnt have to jump through hoops if you had urpmi setup with mirrors for 9.1. You just wouldnt have the latest.

 

If you desire the latest so much, then either go cooker or another distro, like ubuntu.

tell that to my ML-9.1>urpmi/cooker>ML-10.2 ;)

 

yes, I'v been in hairy situations but it was, all but once, because of me....doing what joblow wouldn't do ;)

so no one can say that it's 'because you're bvc' because that is not true. I have the same urpmX and rpm commands available to me as anyone else. The biggest thing is picking the rigth mirrors. That they are kept updated and the hdlist's/rpm's are kept in sync.

 

UrpmX is 10 times what it was 2 years ago.

Is apt still better? I think so, but not by much.

 

I recently thought I was going to have to finally reinstall mandrake after what??? 2 years :)

Spending all my time in ubuntu I finally booted to mandrake and let urpmi do it's thing shooting me to 10.2. All is well now :headbang:

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bvc: I didnt say it was impossible, but running cooker isnt really intended for the average user,

 

iphitus

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