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pbpersson

The future of Linux

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To keep it interesteing---- B)

 

The notion that windows is easy for Joe blow is quite simply marketing and adverising. I work with windows home and office users all of the time. Joe blow is not having an easy time of it! Whether malfunction due to virii, user error, or os error, the problems and issues abound. I can't fix windows like I can linux because I have not payed to take classes where they teach you "you can't do that because it is a secret." :lol: I have freinds who have taken these classes. Guess what? I'm better at fixing windows than they are. Whether networking or home use, windows has issues at the same frequency as linus as long as I account for the lack of vendor support!

 

Here is what I mean. Vendors provide drivers for their hardware so that it will work with an os. This means the guys that know their hardware the best are writing the drivers. Us linux types must frequently make our own drivers because there is not marketing and support pressure for the vendor to do so. Or worse yet, Microsoft has provided negative financial incetives to ignore linux. At any rate, despite the Microsoft dominion, drivers for windows cause issues, especially after a "repair service pack" is issued by ms. But there is very little real negative publicity. Microsoft has excellent marketing and advertising, and great pr. As the syaing goes, they could sell refrigerators to eskimos.

 

Linux is going to have to join the marketing ga,e, pure and simple. It is ready now. There is nothing like business pressure to make a better product. Mandrake, SuSE, Libranet, and other commercial distros are improving the environment because of marketing. Does this mean that money will be involved? Yes, it does. Nobody is working for free at Microsoft. Does it have to cost $250 for an os? Only if you have a marketing monopoly and people believe your pr. Oh, and vendors buy into your threats.

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To keep it interesteing---- B)

 

The notion that windows is easy for Joe blow is quite simply marketing and adverising. I work with windows home and office users all of the time. Joe blow is not having an easy time of it! Whether malfunction due to virii, user error, or os error, the problems and issues abound.

 

ah they just need a push is all

twice in the past 2 months I've had 2 friends ask for my help. i wouldn't help them anymore like in the past and convinced/forced them to help themselves. They are independent now and will never have to call me, you, or anyone to fix their crap again.

 

nano (my wife) almost posted here yesterday in reply to someone (don't know who) but to say basically..."what's wrong with wanting it easy?" "what's wrong with wanting everything to work w/o effort?" and that if bvc was to die she wouldn't mess with linux and would go back to windows. The notion that windows is easy for Joe blow is quite simply the truth.

Edited by bvc

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I have tried to install some 3D linux games in the past, and to date not one of them worked and were hard to install. All most windows users have to do is to drop in a cd and click "next" a few times.

 

I hope linux has a good future :) !!!

 

Anyone who needs high-end games can setup their system as a dual boot. When they feel the need to play games they can boot over to Windows. When they want to do something real that matters and will improve their life they will use Linux. It's better, stronger, and faster (because Windows is slowed down by spyware, registry corruption and who knows what else).

 

Microsoft Windows can just be a game platform and nothing else. It's too unsafe to use for email, web surfing, or anything serious. In my mind that could be a form of victory.

 

Right now in my apartment I have three computers and two thirds of them are running Linux. The Penguin is taking over! :D

 

 

Phil

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Anyone who needs high-end games can setup their system as a dual boot.  When they feel the need to play games they can boot over to Windows.  When they want to do something real that matters and will improve their life they will use Linux.  It's better, stronger, and faster (because Windows is slowed down by spyware, registry corruption and who knows what else).

 

Microsoft Windows can just be a game platform and nothing else.  It's too unsafe to use for email, web surfing, or anything serious.  In my mind that could be a form of victory.

 

Right now in my apartment I have three computers and two thirds of them are running Linux.  The Penguin is taking over!  :D

 

Phil

On a side note, I installed Unreal Tournament 2003 on SuSe 9.1 today and it was hell easy! Also the gameplay experience was really good. I don't care about FPS -still do not- but it was fun for a while. Apparently, if the game publisher is willing to make an effort... it's not that big a problem.

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Whether malfunction due to virii, user error, or os error, the problems and issues abound. I can't fix windows like I can linux because I have not payed to take classes where they teach you "you can't do that because it is a secret."

 

Back when I worked in a corporate help center and the Windows registry would get corrupted, we wouldn't even try to fix it. It could take days to fix a problem like that. Due to the "black magic" that defines how Windows works we would just re-image the machine. We would have the machine up and running in two hours with the OS image and department applications that employee needed to do their job. Of course, all the desktop customizations the user had was gone so they learned not to add that stuff to Windows.

 

I don't know where people get the idea that Windows is easy. A month after I did a fresh install of Windows XP it just stopped working for me because I didn't have spyware protection on it. The OS just sort of started falling apart before my eyes and after working on it for an hour it would not even boot up in safe mode. Does that sound easy?

 

 

Phil

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You all are forgetting something and its the main point. We are geeks, not in a bad sense, but still, we are geeks. Joe Blow is not a geek. He's just your regular pc user that likes to play games once in a while. Don't say they don't exist because they do. I have a couple of friends that are pretty good with computers, but at windows.

 

Everyone is putting the damn cart in front of the horse here with this stupid game talk. Before you get the games for linux you need a easy way to get the damn vid drivers installed, plain and simple. The future of any O.S. depends on the Joe Blows out there running the internet, email, and maybe a simple or complex game or two. I can tell you right now that for ME the nvidia drivers are easy to install for ME, but my neighbor even though I'd have him use Ubuntu, wouldn't know how to "apt-get install nvidia*" and even if I showed him, I'd also have to show him how to edit files to get it to load on boot and other crap. Plain and simple Linux is not easy!! Joe Blow is NOT going to use Linux if its too much work!!!!

 

Don't go running back to virii/malware/spyware excuse either. Yes Linux is good in that area and it does really shine, but with proper software, knowledge (common sense for a better word) and the use of a different browser than I.E. windows can be just as safe as Linux. In the years I used Windows before finding Linux I never had one virus and still on my gaming machine when I surf the net with it I still do not get any of that crap. So it can be done.

 

The other factor most of you are forgetting is the "update and upgrade" times of Linux. Who is going to download 1,2,3, sometimes 4 damn cd's every six months to update or upgrade to the next release, but I covered that before. Also what about the people and there are still alot of them that are on dialup. Joe Blow on dialup updating his Linux install even for the releases that come out inbetween the 6 month major release is going to have a hell of a time. Yes Windows has the same problem to an extent with their releases every first Tues of the month or whatever it is. That doesn't compare to the updates you get with Linux. Hell you download and install and distro and 9 times out of 10 there are 100 to 500 megs of updates for it right away after the install. Take a week for a dialup user to get them all.

 

Better PR for Linux would help that I will agree with. They need to get the word out more, but with the issues that are still with linux, few to some MIGHT take it up.

 

<rant>One last thing about Bill Gates and him being a money hungry, money grubbing selfish bas***. Well sorry but yes he is in it for the money, plain and simple. If thats such a bad thing, well then I think the people that bitch about it should go tell there boss, "Listen I've been thinking about it and I feel bad taking money from you for the work I do. Tell you what, you don't have to pay me anymore, I'll work free." And yes that comment has everything to do with the way Bill runs his business. Everyone yelps about Bill and how much he charges for Windows and other software he develops, but yet take a look at Apples/Mac's site once and start pricing out systems there. Not only that, but the price to replace hardware that HAS to be Apple/Mac specific.</rant>

 

Now plain and simple. Windows has issues but liveable to Joe Blow, but Linux has improving to do before it will go anywhere in major leaps and bounds. Why? Cause Joe Blow home pc guy wants it that way!! He wants it easy!!!

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I'd also have to show him how to edit files to get it to load on boot and other crap. Plain and simple Linux is not easy!! Joe Blow is NOT going to use Linux if its too much work!!!!

 

This time getting into Linux I decided it had to be easy and it has been. The only thing I had to do at the command line I think is say "Hostname PhiLinux". No, I take that back, I also had to type something like "smbnewpasswd -a phil" or something like that. If Mr. Joe Blow can't handle that complexity he should not be using a computer. Perhaps a pen and a pad of paper would be more his cup ot tea - really easy to use.

 

When I want to install new software I click on install in the RPM manager and it installs for me. What is so difficult about that? Why are you trying to make Linux so difficult? I don't really see anything difficult here.

 

When I was going to buy a new video card when I built this machine and looked at the NVidia web site it looked like you needed to be a programmer to install it. I discovered that ATI Radeon cards would just work so that's what I bought - and it just worked. Nothing complicated. I don't even think I had to make any choices when I installed Mandrake.

 

Now......if I'm Joe user and in my ignorance I'm still using Windows 98SE and my computer is being buried by spyware and viruses and isn't working and I move to Linux and it's nice......explain to me why I have to upgrade to a new OS version every six months? I don't understand that part of your arguement either. There are people here who are using Mandrake 9.1 and they seem quite happy.

 

In the Windows world people have to re-image their machines quite often because of spyware, viruses, registry corruption, etc. I thought the beauty of Linux was that it could run for years without even crashing - let alone requiring an upgrade. Now you are confusing me!!

 

 

Phil

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echo FX

windows is as safe as you make it

you just need to know what you are doing

in most areas...windows is faster than linux...again, if you know what you are doing

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Hey man, relax!

 

I should also mention that those 'geeks' make up a big part of the 'middle men', e.g. Joe User who does not even know where to begin for a simple task, asks help from a person which he thinks to be technically skilled. This is one of the reasons why Firefox has taken off so well recently: most of the 'middle' men decided it is better than that other browser that is currently out there, so they're installing it on PC's like crazy. I see your point about the nvidia drivers, sound, etc. BUT you are also forgetting one thing: it is up to you to make an informed decision about the product you buy, just as is with everything else.

 

And pre-installed systems with Linux come a long way, since then OTHER people made sure it 'just works' (and pick the hardware pieces). Just like the hardware makers writing drivers for Windoze try to make sure it 'just works'. When more of these machines are going to appear, Joe User won't have to worry about nvidia drivers not functioning correctly, having trouble setting up sound, etc... plus it'll be much cheaper then Windoze all things considered.

 

My own experience with Windoze (XP with SP2) is this: you have to put in a lot of work to make it secure and even then you STILL have to baby-sit it constantly! Again, a lot of those 'middle-men' do the babysitting for them (e.g. me for my parents... and if I didn't my parents PC would have been zombified by now!)

 

Myself, I use SuSe 9.1 right now. If you want a home desktop but are using a cutting-edge distro like Fedora Core 3 for your home desktop... well chances are you will get frustrated. This is what distro's like Mandrake, Suse, Xandros, Linspire, ... are for. With SuSe I get 2 years of security upgrades and bug fixes after the version you bought is out. So I will only have to buy 1 new version every 2 years. For the price you can buy it, this is not bad at all. And you could still keep running it after support is discontinued... however that's not something I myself would feel comfortable with.

At least when I buy a new version of Linux after 2 years, I know there will be lots of improvements and it will be worth it!

 

As for the money issue, note that it's mostly not about money when people rant about M$. I can't say it better than this guy can though:

http://www.euronet.nl/users/frankvw/rants/...teMS_intro.html

 

A new PC, pre-installed with a recent and decent desktop Linux distro, can hold its own against WindozeXP and I'm serious about that.

 

But choose whatever you wish: Windows, Linux, MacOSX, ... but at least make it an informed decision. One of my main gripes with Windoze is that often it will not let you use what you want to use!!

 

All in all, I'm quite happy with my Linux installation ATM and curious about where it's heading.

 

You all are forgetting something and its the main point. We are geeks, not in a bad sense, but still, we are geeks. Joe Blow is not a geek. He's just your regular pc user that likes to play games once in a while. Don't say they don't exist because they do. I have a couple of friends that are pretty good with computers, but at windows.

 

Everyone is putting the damn cart in front of the horse here with this stupid game talk. Before you get the games for linux you need a easy way to get the damn vid drivers installed, plain and simple. The future of any O.S. depends on the Joe Blows out there running the internet, email, and maybe a simple or complex game or two. I can tell you right now that for ME the nvidia drivers are easy to install for ME, but my neighbor even though I'd have him use Ubuntu, wouldn't know how to "apt-get install nvidia*" and even if I showed him, I'd also have to show him how to edit files to get it to load on boot and other crap. Plain and simple Linux is not easy!! Joe Blow is NOT going to use Linux if its too much work!!!!

 

Don't go running back to virii/malware/spyware excuse either. Yes Linux is good in that area and it does really shine, but with proper software, knowledge (common sense for a better word) and the use of a different browser than I.E. windows can be just as safe as Linux. In the years I used Windows before finding Linux I never had one virus and still on my gaming machine when I surf the net with it I still do not get any of that crap. So it can be done.

 

The other factor most of you are forgetting is the "update and upgrade" times of Linux. Who is going to download 1,2,3, sometimes 4 damn cd's every six months to update or upgrade to the next release, but I covered that before. Also what about the people and there are still alot of them that are on dialup. Joe Blow on dialup updating his Linux install even for the releases that come out inbetween the 6 month major release is going to have a hell of a time. Yes Windows has the same problem to an extent with their releases every first Tues of the month or whatever it is. That doesn't compare to the updates you get with Linux. Hell you download and install and distro and 9 times out of 10 there are 100 to 500 megs of updates for it right away after the install. Take a week for a dialup user to get them all.

 

Better PR for Linux would help that I will agree with. They need to get the word out more, but with the issues that are still with linux, few to some MIGHT take it up.

 

<rant>One last thing about Bill Gates and him being a money hungry, money grubbing selfish bas***. Well sorry but yes he is in it for the money, plain and simple. If thats such a bad thing, well then I think the people that bitch about it should go tell there boss, "Listen I've been thinking about it and I feel bad taking money from you for the work I do. Tell you what, you don't have to pay me anymore, I'll work free." And yes that comment has everything to do with the way Bill runs his business. Everyone yelps about Bill and how much he charges for Windows and other software he develops, but yet take a look at Apples/Mac's site once and start pricing out systems there. Not only that, but the price to replace hardware that HAS to be Apple/Mac specific.</rant>

 

Now plain and simple. Windows has issues but liveable to Joe Blow, but  Linux has improving to do before it will go anywhere in major leaps and bounds. Why? Cause Joe Blow home pc guy wants it that way!! He wants it easy!!!

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Guest anon
windows is as safe as you make it

And that means a lot of hard work to keep up with the constant virus attacks, updating your def files on a almost daily basis. And thats not just because windoze is the most widely used OS, its because its fundamentally flawed from the ground up and easy peasy to hack into.

 

The only good good thing about windoze is the software thats been written for it.

 

But as an OS it stinks. Had a Linux desktop OS been released at around the time of windoze 95, windoze would never have achieved its global dominance. as a desktop OS.

Every empire falls, and windoze days are numbered. (pain in the ass OS that it is )

 

Yuo want to make me angry with computers? force me to use windoze. :wall:

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And pre-installed systems with Linux come a long way, since then OTHER people made sure it 'just works' (and pick the hardware pieces). Just like the hardware makers writing drivers for Windoze try to make sure it 'just works'. When more of these machines are going to appear, Joe User won't have to worry about nvidia drivers not functioning correctly, having trouble setting up sound, etc... plus it'll be much cheaper then Windoze all things considered.
until they want the new version

 

 

My own experience with Windoze (XP with SP2)
huh? that can't even be compared. That's like installing a cutting edge distro that is more so than cooker. Anyone that installs that crap deserves trouble. In fact, that is exactly what happened to one of my friends mentioned above. Not bothering shuting off autoupdate got sp2 and fried half his setup.I still have sp1. Just like with mandrake or any other distro or os, on my stable installs, I let others be the test rats b4 I run off and get the updates. Just plain common sense. A very quick google will tell you to avoid sp2 like the plague. I did that in my first year of having a pc/windows so it is not because I'm a 'geek'. To me, it's more a matter of trust. Most, trust M$, I never have. Sooner or later, those that do realize they never should have.

 

One of my main gripes with Windoze is that often it will not let you use what you want to use!!
I don't understand this comment. What do you mean?

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windows is as safe as you make it

And that means a lot of hard work to keep up with the constant virus attacks, updating your def files on a almost daily basis. And thats not just because windoze is the most widely used OS, its because its fundamentally flawed from the ground up and easy peasy to hack into.

 

out of 4 years and 3 months, I have run antivirus software for 3 months. Not one virus. 2 worms.

 

Only recently started running a firewall since getting broadband.

 

no hard work here..

you just have to know what you are doing ;)

Edited by bvc

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My own experience with Windoze (XP with SP2)

huh? that can't even be compared. That's like installing a cutting edge distro that is more so than cooker. Anyone that installs that crap deserves trouble.

 

And still M$ recommends you to install it. How should WinXP users know this if M$ says otherwise? And if you do NOT install SP2, you're more at risk. Or did I miss what this Service Pack was all about in the first place?

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And still M$ recommends you to install it. How should WinXP users know this if M$ says otherwise? And if you do NOT install SP2, you're more at risk. Or did I miss what this Service Pack was all about in the first place?

well I don't fall for all the security! securty! bs either so, I'm just fine with my even more secure win98se ;)

yeah...you missed it

 

you think m$ is going to recall sp2 and look like morons or update fixes quickly? not a chance.

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SP 2 works fine here.

 

Again to you updating MS and the anti virus maybe a pain in the ass, but to Joe Blow whos already been using MS for years finds it easy by either having the anit-virus update automatically, which by default it does on install or just a matter of a couple of mouse clicks.

 

Far as updating MS its just a couple of clicks. Try to install gaim for Mandrake if you don't have your urmpi sources setup or your cd's. Course that is after you explain to them what gaim is, then you have to explain to Joe Blow what urmpi is and how to setup it up after telling him where the site is and this is just Mandrake. There are what 200 or so other distros that just happen to do things their own little way. That can of worms hasn't even been touched yet in this thread, or at least I might have missed it. Uniformity would be really nice, but again, I'll get cut down on that comment by some/most too.

 

Linux needs to made easier to use, and thats it. All other arugements are useless until that happens. Again us/we/those of us here know that ONCE you learn linux its not that hard. Key word being ONCE and LEARN.

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