Huerzo

In fact, I believe there would be a niche for a distro, which is made for the people we IT guys are laughing at. I mean, soooo many people have asked a simple question "why computing is so complicated". And honestly, I can't give a good answer. Could think that simple things are also simple to create...but still we tend to have "bigger is better"-syndrome. And how we're reacting to user inconfidence? Laughing and joking, yes. Basicly, "we are smarter/better people than you are"-attitude. I hate that... Just a very basic GUI on Linux would be needed. Only the few options: internet connection, emails, instant messanging, music player and a word processor. For example. Of course when installing OS user could select from the very limited number of choices what (s)he would like to use. But the main thing is to keep simple. Give them what they want, uh? We may find it restrictive, but for them it's a benefit. I mean, the main thing most of people use their computers isn't the beauty of computing. They want to pay their bills, chat with their friends. Their relation is more pragmatic (I hope it's the right word) than ours. And what important: they don't give a damn if there are two OSs, M & L. And if there are dozen of different painting programs. If they get their chores done, great. And nothing else matters...so if there's an OS marketing itself as being easy-to-use and there's an other one being technically advanced and maybe easy-to-use, then there's no doubt will the user choose the MS products. I guess a OS like that could be a tough competitor for Windows. I feel that IT people are all "donquijotes" when trying to get everybody interested of computing. No, that won't happen - unfortunately. So, if the mountain isn't getting nearer to us, then... Sorry, I again started preaching. But hope somebody can find the clue...

Link to story OK. I admit. Know I'm talking about an area I'm not completely familiar with, but I've some experience. I read the article and I came up with some ideas. Whilst Genetic Algoritms may seem just another nice (and funny) tuning technique, I'm having a view that they'll playing a major role when optimizing Linux kernel (and other program code). Why? 1. They will always produce the best possible result (if given time enough) 2. They fit themselves to different environments and still produce the best possible result -> same code, manual tweaking not necessary (OK, now I broke somebody's heart :lol:) So, eventually they are saving much both developers' and users' time. At least I'm fascinated by the vision that computer themselves are doing the dull and dirty work of tweaking softwares to approach better computing. For example, there's been a lot of talk that the boot-up time of linux is too long. And I've read that there will be done some research what's the best possible order launcing processes while booting system up (article). I see this could be an excellent chance to use Genetic Algorithms to find out the right order. The series of processes could be one "chromosome string" and one process one chromosome in that string. First mixing processes to random order, then using UML (User mode linux) to see if "the mix" works. Of course, timer is running to find out how long the boot will take, Then best chromosomes are mixed together to reach the optimal solution. And new evolution rounds until we have an optimal process starting sequence. Of course this is rough and simple view, I've never compiled a kernel (or tweaked it), so I guess much more details are needed to take on account before "something" happens. And much time. But I guess this could be done. Or have I got something wrong?

Yep. Same for me. Problems began, when I was installing MDK10.1O. My USB mouse wasn't recognized and it didn't work. Well, at least keyboard and Tab worked, so I managed to install it. I have Acer Aspire 1362LCi and every time I try to run Mandrake Control Center, my USB mouse will be dropped off - and Mandrake Control Center freezes. Well, touchpad still works, but I'm not used to use it. But when I'm trying to close Mandrake and restart the system, the blue screen (where Mandrake announces how it closes itself) reports "control timeout on ep0out"...couple of seconds...control timeout on ep0out and this will continue on and on and on... For some reason Acer seems to be a tough bite for Mandrake, because most of laptop related problems seems to be happening to Acer users... So, any help is appreciated. I guess it's time to take a look help from here... BTW, it's sad that we are still stucked with these same problems (ALSA, USB) from version to another...could think that those times are left behind!

I've to also confess, that also my words were absolutely too straight-forward. Sorry Arthur, if you felt offended. Your one-liner made me thought, that you belong to group of people that spits over their shoulder when they hear words Micro and Soft just to be like the others... Arthur. I can't either remember any major software written VB. But I can remember numerous small progs I've written to myself. And for me, it's the thing that really makes difference. Without VB, I think I wouldn't have any of those. I haven't never read a hand written book, but I have a wild guess that pen isn't useless :D... Just hoping, that so many other people could find that programming can be fun. Restrcitions and not's just make it feel like a pain: for example my bad experiences from those "good habits" are from coding courses where we were taught those "good coding practices" more than coding itself. You know, "Hello worlds" having more comments than code. So many promising coders were bored to death by limiting their talents with those rules. I neglected comments (etc.) for a long time, but nowadays I understand well why they're necessary. But please don't make programming too serious - it's a really good way to develop yourself as a problem solver. And with VB, you can focus to programming instead of "boring stuff". But then you've to also accept, that your code is not worth publicing...but you learn coding structures quickly, if you need them. Afterwards it's pretty easy to learn those good coding practices, when coding and program solving are learnt. That learning curve, you know... OK, this has maybe nothing to do with KBasic, but hopefully my point is now clear. Like Gowator said, arguing VB (put any technique, language, sport etc there) is worthless. Especially, when all of us seem to agree that there's a need for a good RAD tool in Linux...

First: I don't want to start any stupid "my dad's programming language will cut your dad's language's throat in 0.5 seconds (I have heard it can be done in 0.49 sec, if code is well optimized with xxx)"-flame wars. I know that Linux wouldn't exist without C-language series, so my respect to those who use it every day. I agree with jfsgr8. I'm just bored with people, who claim automatically everything Microsoft has done is *hit. Even I'm now a solid programmer (mainly PHP, VB), I would have never started programming anything without RAD tools. It allows intuitive coding and quick protos - I'll be the only user of that program, so there's no need for strong commenting and simple structures. But - also good coding cenventions can be used - if you want to have scrappy code, you are able to create it no matter what the language is. As I said before, VB6 is the biggest reason I still have XP beside my Mandrake. If VB will be ported to Linux, I'm sure it will gain more developers and users. IMHO, the worst thing what has happened to programming is to stick with old, often false beliefs and divide programmers into excellent © and loser coders (VB). In the end, our goals are still same: to make software to make some things easier and some things possible: sometimes we even get those two promises in same package... Hopefully snobby attitude towards VB developers would end. Linux really needs a competent RAD tool to have a bigger group of developers involved with Linux. jfsgr8 actually said that all so well, that I have nothing to add. So NelsonN, we are ready!

BTW, will an official/community MDK10.1 boot faster than usual? Well, in this "OtherRequestedFeatures"-article MDK-developers are writing "Parallelization of startup scripts to save bootup time". So I'm just interested to hear if some progress is made. At least I feel that MDK10's (all GUI-distros?) boot up time is just too long. Impatient? Me? No way... Yeah, yeah, I know for some of you this boot up time is irrelevant, you keep your computers on 24/7/52, but I guess most of us won't. And this is a thing which is for most of users more significant than a bunch of new programs... IBM's article

Looks great! In fact I have only two reasons to have XP beside of Linux. First reason is a gorcious mp3-player Foobar2000 and second is Visual Basic. Now it seems, that XP's expected lifetime in my computer just dropped dramaticaly. If I could only get Linux-version of Foobar2000...

Qchem, also many thanks to you. I solved my problem, but I'm not so glad from it. Because I'm afraid it's possible only because of bug or something. Well, try it yourselves and comment then. I solved my problem following way - maybe this isn't the way it should be done, but anyway I need no more console hassle when editing text files. One thing that amazes me, is that file permissions aren't changed even file is saved - if "normal user" has created the file, and KWrite (now opened by root) saves it, permissions are created to "normal user", not to root as I expected. I have a hunch that this is not generally a good thing, because KDE developers said (in those bug messages I posted) "opening files owned by root from KWrite isn't sane". Could somebody wiser guru say is this a saving error or a feature? Asterisk (*) means right menu term is my wild guess, I'm using translated version of KDE... -opened KDE's Control Center -selected Parts (*) -selected File types (*) -searched for .txt (plain) -selected KWrite -then Edit (*) -selected tab Application (*) -selected More settings (*) -checked "Run as another user" and filled "User name"-field with "root" That's all. Now I can edit .txt-files owned by root from KDE without console...KDEInit brings BTW error message to screen if .txt-file is originally owned by an other user than root when exiting KWrite, which states "KDEInit couldn't run program 'kdesu'". It's naturally KDE's su trying to do something, but does this message carry any meaning, because .txt-file can anyway be saved. If you know any bad side-effects this "trick" is causing, please let me know...

I guess this rather long article is interesting to all Linux enthusiasts - Microsoft's Sacred Cash Cow written by Jeff Reifman from Seattle Weekly. Author has worked in Microsoft, so his views and opinions have maybe more "weight" than just a common author would have. In the article author forecasts that Microsoft will face serious troubles. There isn't much Linux news (moreover open source related text), but I think B) this article is somehow connected also to the future of Linux and its popularity. Enjoy...

Roland, thanks (a biiiig one) for replying, but it wasn't exactly what I'm looking for. When I was writing a wish to KDE developers, I found (not suprisingly), that somebody else had already wished the same: http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4414 http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=54855 In the second report developers said "techically not really possible in that way (not sane)". Would somebody kindly explain me why it's impossible, especially because Mandrake Control Center in MDK9.2 basically asked root password in a similar way even I was logged in as a common user? I just thought only a inputbox asking root password is required, if file is accessible and owned only by root...

Well, I know this in quite a sensitive thing to some people, but I ask anyway. Is there any programs available to Mandrake/KDE, which would allow me to change file rights (rights owned by root) wihout using console (su + chmod)? I'm looking for a plug-in (or program, don't know the right term in this case), that would ask (require) me the correct root password if I'm trying to change in KDE file rights owned by root and then proceed allowing me to save the file. Just like Mandrake Control Center used to ask in MDK9.2 (in MDK10 it won't ask anymore). Of course when this disk operation is done, I'd continue using KDE with my user rights, not root rights. So just a little tweak, saves some time and it would be handy. Or does this feature already exist, but I just haven't spotted it? Or is there a good reason why this thing cannot be done? (Have I now touched the sacred ground I'll burned in hell where little :devil:s are torturing me with pieces of broken window :D when trying to do "root only"-things via GUI)

Off-topic: Gowator, I meant I prefer Peugeot WRC team to Citroen WRC...there are no Finnish drivers driving Citroen WRC, that's the reason... EDIT: And your idea of distro classification is considerable, maybe we should continue with rally terms (grouping): junior distros, N group distros and finally WRC distros? ramfree17: I agree with Sacha, who wrote the post you kindly linked to this forum. Like he said, user friendliness depends on taste and experience you've from different OS's and programs. If I had started my computing career with UNIX my idea of user friendliness would be different. My view is (still) a common user view, which Sasha desbribed as "typical user (friendliness)", or maybe a spoiled windows guy would be better. Of course CLI gurus (guru user) with numerous shortcuts feel buttons, menus and other "aids" as nonsense and extra burden. So, both styles are user friendly, but I think the topic starter meant Linux generally shouldn't have more "typical user (friendy)" features. Other words topic starter meant: please stop Linux looking more like Windows... I don't care how things are done as long as I get them done. Then I may look other ways to do my chores. It's like you'd be in kitchen: first some basic things and little by little towards gourmet. I have made my choices and the next move from me is to learn more console tricks. But if I would have been thrown to the CLI world about 7 months ago, my career with Linux would have been very short. Learning curve (as previously mentioned) is a block you can't overcome in one day. And that's why "typical user friendliness" (or mambo jambo :|) is needed to build "a bridge over troubled water".

(All bolded text written by Gowator) I see the point but Linux isnt really the vintage car, its more the Rally car (see bvc's avatars) I didn't mean at all that Linux (with CLI) is like a historic car - but vintage, definitely. Cambridge dictionary describes vintage as "high quality and lasting value, or showing the best and most typical characteristics of a particular type of thing, especially from the past". Maybe "past" is a word which can hurt somebody, but it supports my view well...But your comparison Linux with CLI to Rally car (WRC) is good, much better and complete than my attempt. Both CLI and WRC have lost almost all their decorations because both are built for extreme performances. To make a certain thing as efficiently as possible. Light weight, powerful engine and skillful driver are also needed to keep WRC raging on special stages and CLI on info highways. And it's also clear, that if for example family related (=wife opinions) things would be topped on your chart, WRC (and so on CLI, if still using metaphores) wouldn't be so luring choice. Maybe GUI (I know, it's built on CLI) would be (for example) radio, seat belts and automatic gears added to our WRC. Our WRC isn't anymore a Concorde on wheels, but some compromises are needed to keep whole family satisfied... I tried to describe what is to happen with Linux, if user friendliness will be neglected. If somebody wants to have a Linux with 100% CLI it's possible to compile a Linux version without KDE's and applications build on it. Right? If you expect to click a button and have an efficient computer either forget it or buy a mac. Its that simple. The problem is you dont understand how linux works undereneath. (fundamentally) No way. I'm using Linux, and I'm satisfied with it. But you can always do things better and easier. It's IMVHO madness to make computers less user friendly and stop listening users how they want to get things done. Like you said, GUIs are built on CLIs, so who's losing in the end? And like you wisely said, we are able to make choices. But it's important that there would be WHERE to choose: if all programs are CLI-based, where are those choices? In Mac-store? I want to see more Linux distros in everyday use, that's why I'm so stubborn with my opinions. And no, I won't forget computers - I'm studying Information Systems, and I don't want to throw credits and upcoming thesis away ;). It's true that I don't know how Linux WRC 2.6 Turbo works in detail, but following kernel development process has opened my eyes a bit. And of course Linux (even Mandrake) has required some tweaking and twisting to keep my computer rolling. And coding programs has given a very good view how things are basicly done. But it's not a relevant thing to this topic... So unfortunately there is no simple way to KEEP all the power and have the point and click because one trades off against the other. Like I said, if WRC (=CLI) is wanted to be smoother to get family on a holiday, it would be definitely better to make some improvements to car to make a trip easier. CLI offers more power, but if you can't see (understand) where the power is (common user?), we are facing a situation where user misses all the opportunities just because (s)he can't see where the power switch is! Like tyre company's ad declared, "The Power Is Nothing Without Control". So, IMHO better to introduce users to Linux via "compromised" GUI and then, if needed, CLI can be offered as a "guru choice". Once more: CLIs are OK, GUIs also. User friendliness: super. And Gowator and bvc: please welcome to Finland (Neste Rally, Jyväskylä) to see how WRCs rock gravel road. But I prefer Peugeot to Citroen for a certain reason :).

I hope I understood topic completely wrong: does somebody want computers, which make a big men cry? Do tears give extra value to computing? Please read my message written by a common user, not a war flamer. My opinions just may be so strong, that somebody may feel offended by them. For me making things a more complicated/harder way won't give extra pleasure, if user friendliness is described a such thing. If some thing can be done by pressing a button instead of writing something into console, I prefer buttons to text. But maybe I see Linux as a tool like a car is, which enables me to do some things. The way how car or Linux makes things done doesn't interest me as much. I understand the existance of tweakers and tuners who want to keep their cars or Linuxes as polished as possible. I've seen some vintage cars and I agree they would certainly lose something if seat belts or better tyres would be installed on them. But answer is under your nose, folks. Why vintage linuxers want to update their software? Let others have their buttons and help texts, but you can keep your systems the way they are made. Let other world fill their eyes with windows and colours. But if somebody else wants to have more candy, it doesn't take your Linuxes away. Vintage car owners probably are happy modern cars having seat belts and ABS even their car doesn't have such equipment. Masses have already taken Linux over and their vision of the future of Linux is menus, buttons and windows, not a command line. And I've a hunch that Linus himself is also sharing this view. I may sound rude, but why development process should be stopped to a certain phase? Just because some things are done a way X dozen years? Gangsta-Linux wanna be still underground thing? I know those times won't come back. And IMHO, luckily.

I agree with Pierre Baco. Sorry, my text is quite long, but I think these things are worth mentioning. Okay, my contribution...3 cents... It's sad to say, but when a company is looking for a IT solutions, they will find out that there are much more companies offering Windows-based solutions than Linux-solutions. And solution - I mean a complete package, everyday business tools and support for them and so on. There aren't many companies willing to be "on edge" just for a fun. They want to be sure that there's enough comptetition and solutions repertuare between solution makers. If you hang yourself with a certain solution maker, and it collapses - shit happens. Companies want to be sure that their systems are working and somebody's supporting them - or at least there's a guy answering their phone calls, who is tossing dart to board while guessing what's wrong with a mouse... No miracle, that Windows is still a market leader. We should remember, that during these years IT solutions have been somewhat buggy. Ironically, Windows was/is buggy, but now some improvement is made lately. In bigger firms, there are legacy systems, ERPs, EAIs and so on. Bubble gum is still a bit wet, but if it isn't broken, why fix it? If they would change their systems, firms should also re-educate their staff, and also IT experts should acquire Linux knowledge. But nope, as long they are not forced to make a change, they'll stick with Windows. And I understand them: they are afraid of their workplaces and also they lose their expert position in company. And IT hurts! Linux would need some major solution makers to back it. I guess IBM is on a way to do this, and in Finland some Finnish solution makers are now offering Linux solutions. But who would push a snowball down the slope? One bigger company willing to take a risk (change is always a risk) and reporting for example lower IT expenses: then we are talking a real probability, that Linux would really go forward. Money makes companies move, not ideologies. But if western companies aren't willing to choose Linux, new companies in China and India, for example, have no "legacy burdens", so they are free to make choices. And I'm pretty sure that they will choose Linux. And maybe those future nokias will be the driving force when wearing Tux in black suit. Somebody Finnish researcher said, that "open source will be the greatest gift ever from western world to developing nations". I agree with him.