Apple announce new iPhone

[tyme]

LOL, well no matter how smart you think you are, notice I said "Think" I have met my share of educated idiots. Not to say you are one, but the whole Masters degree and beyond fails to impress some people. Not to start an argument.

It's usually not a smart idea to insult one of the board administrators within a day of joining a board...just some words of advice.

 

I was simply stating my interests, sorry if you thought I was trying to impress....someone... :unsure:

 

Thankfully apple will never hold a large share of the Computer market, no one wants to pay more for the same thing, if you know what I mean?

When I bought my Macbook, I researched prices on similar spec'd systems from the top names (Dell, IBM, etc.) and found the prices to be within $100 of each other.

[Robert P]

actually I am quite bold! I did not notice you were a admin at first. I did not try to insult you, just stating an opinion :) ;)

 

LOL, well no matter how smart you think you are, notice I said "Think" I have met my share of educated idiots. Not to say you are one, but the whole Masters degree and beyond fails to impress some people. Not to start an argument.

It's usually not a smart idea to insult one of the board administrators within a day of joining a board...just some words of advice.

 

I was simply stating my interests, sorry if you thought I was trying to impress....someone... :unsure:

 

Thankfully apple will never hold a large share of the Computer market, no one wants to pay more for the same thing, if you know what I mean?

When I bought my Macbook, I researched prices on similar spec'd systems from the top names (Dell, IBM, etc.) and found the prices to be within $100 of each other.

 

Really $100, that was it? Hmmm, your talking of Laptops, I am not too educated on Mac brand names. I just know I made a $1600 mistake when I purchased mine!

 

 

"It's usually not a smart idea to insult one of the board administrators within a day of joining a board...just some words of advice.

 

I was simply stating my interests, sorry if you thought I was trying to impress....someone... unsure.gif"

 

Sorry that is how I took it. Cheers!

[FX]

I must agree that it boils down to personal opinion. I have met with a share of people who have tried Mac and Linux and most prefer Linux over Mac, due to cost and the fact that they don't want a tie with yet another American Company.

 

How American of you!!!!

[SoulSe]

All I'm hearing is personal opinion. What I do find hard to believe is Linux users defending Windows Mobile.

 

I have an iPaq hw6915 - and I would argue that it is currently the best Windows Mobile device available (from what I've seen) - and it blows! Why? The operating system is quite simply the worst I have ever used. Hands down. How could you even begin to compare the iPhone to a WM device? First off, while you can use your fingers on current touch screens, doing so would limit it's life to a couple of months (I've had three Palms, two iPaqs and short spates with a range of other PDAs - the touch screens are not exactly robust). What Apple have done is come up with a resilient touch screen that can be used daily with your fingers and not bug out.

 

You may or may not like OS X and have other opinions about Apple, but you can not argue about quality of hardware. Only a fool would dispute the quality of Apple hardware. Personally, I can't wait to have a mobile phone that is as reliable, attractive and robust as my 12" powerbook (which has survived more knocks than any PC I have owned).

 

I have been using Linux for 9 years now and will continue to. It lives on my servers and I use it on my desktop machine at home (although that is largely a dust magnet since I switched to Mac). But for me, in an every day, working scenario, you can not beat OS X.

 

Whether Linux users will admit it or not - I know (because I am one) that desktop Linux is unreliable from a user perspective and requires constant attention to keep going. That is fine on a toy machine, but I can not afford that in my work. On servers Linux is rock solid and my OS of choice (although that would change if I could afford an X server).

 

That is my opinion. But there are facts - like hardware reliability, like the fact that Macs are not more expensive (compare features and you'll see that tyme is right - take into account the addition of WiFi, Bluetooth, tilt detection, HD size, Screen quality. The Mac Pro also out powers any similarly priced PC, the closest is a Dell that costs $2000 more).

 

I happily rock an Apple sticker in my back window. Superior products are always attacked with sour grapes. That's something that Porsche drivers and Apple owners both have to put up with :P

[iphitus]

All I'm hearing is personal opinion. What I do find hard to believe is Linux users defending Windows Mobile.

 

I have an iPaq hw6915 - and I would argue that it is currently the best Windows Mobile device available (from what I've seen) - and it blows! Why? The operating system is quite simply the worst I have ever used. Hands down. How could you even begin to compare the iPhone to a WM device?

Well, now, you can't. They are aimed at entirely different Markets, as the Apple has no support whatsoever for third party applications. Sorry, but without that, I'd prefer the Windows Mobile device.

 

First off, while you can use your fingers on current touch screens, doing so would limit it's life to a couple of months (I've had three Palms, two iPaqs and short spates with a range of other PDAs - the touch screens are not exactly robust). What Apple have done is come up with a resilient touch screen that can be used daily with your fingers and not bug out.

The others just werent designed to have fingers used on them. Apple most likely didnt create or invent it's touch screen, so that's a moot point. Samsung had it in a mobile phone first anyway...

 

You may or may not like OS X and have other opinions about Apple, but you can not argue about quality of hardware. Only a fool would dispute the quality of Apple hardware. Personally, I can't wait to have a mobile phone that is as reliable, attractive and robust as my 12" powerbook (which has survived more knocks than any PC I have owned).

</me waits for anti apple person to comment on faulty ipods>

Outside of ipods, apple's hardware is damned robust. And for me, their ipods are pretty robust. I received my nano less than a week after it's release. 1st Gen, black, 4gb. It looks like new, still, except for a few dents on the back metallic side. Pretty impressed that it's survived whatever made those dents.

 

I have been using Linux for 9 years now and will continue to. It lives on my servers and I use it on my desktop machine at home (although that is largely a dust magnet since I switched to Mac). But for me, in an every day, working scenario, you can not beat OS X.

Aye. My Girlfriend's Macbook is damned awesome.

 

Whether Linux users will admit it or not - I know (because I am one) that desktop Linux is unreliable from a user perspective and requires constant attention to keep going. That is fine on a toy machine, but I can not afford that in my work. On servers Linux is rock solid and my OS of choice (although that would change if I could afford an X server).

One day this will change, and ironically, it's apple that's shown its possible to solidify a unix environment into a coherent desktop. There's a lot of promising things moving at the moment towards that goal, but you are correct, the "Linux desktop" (and I hate that term so much) isnt quite up to scratch compared to OSX.

 

That is my opinion. But there are facts - like hardware reliability, like the fact that Macs are not more expensive (compare features and you'll see that tyme is right - take into account the addition of WiFi, Bluetooth, tilt detection, HD size, Screen quality. The Mac Pro also out powers any similarly priced PC, the closest is a Dell that costs $2000 more).

Except for the iPhone. I don't see where it'll find it's market.

 

Not the smartphone market, no third party apps allowed.

Not the low/medium or even high cost markets, so expensive i'd classify it as 'boutique'

No 3G, which is an increasing part of hte market. Already most handsets here are 3G, and buy the time iPhone is even available in Australia.... it'll be one of the few "dinosaurs" left being sold.

 

My Nokia 6280 was half the price, ~$500AU and the iPhone just under $1000AU - I could get a half decent laptop for that. My phone was available a year ago, and does more than that iPhone does. Mine's been superceded by the 6283 iirc, which has improved functionality for an equivalent cost as mine.

 

iPhone undoubtedly does some things better, and has a "cooler" interface and wifi, but that does not justify a *doubling* of cost. The interface on my phone is just as effective for many things, and also ironically, more familiar. Keypad and dial button, that's what nearly every phone has used since the turn phones.

 

I don't know how apple can justify charging twice the price, for a device that does less, and has bugger all market to aim for.

 

I happily rock an Apple sticker in my back window. Superior products are always attacked with sour grapes. That's something that Porsche drivers and Apple owners both have to put up with :P

Ditto. Apple's computers and music players rock. The Jury is out on the iPhone till we get our hands on it.

 

James

[phunni]

All I'm hearing is personal opinion. What I do find hard to believe is Linux users defending Windows Mobile.

 

I have an iPaq hw6915 - and I would argue that it is currently the best Windows Mobile device available (from what I've seen) - and it blows! Why? The operating system is quite simply the worst I have ever used. Hands down. How could you even begin to compare the iPhone to a WM device?

 

I've had no problems with my WM device. I've seen no problems with regular use of the fingers (although who cares - this idea that no one wants to use a stylus is so alien to my experience...). I find it does everything I want and it does it well...

 

I also think it looks pretty cool. Sure It'd prefer it if it wasn't a Microsoft device, but I'm not that bothered. I honestly can't see a single reason why I'd ever want an iPhone over my current phone/PDA...

[Darkelve]

The $100 sounds about right. I made a similar comparison and I came out at less than that when comparing an iMac with a similar computer from a configure-it-yourself online shop with very good prices. I came out at a difference of €50.

 

However, I also took into a count the design of the case (which is, in the case of the iMac, the screen, so I took a somewhat more expensive case to compensate for this) and I picked "Win XP Professional" in the choice for an OS, because I think Mac OSX has more features than WinXP Home and so is more comparable to XP's PRO version. And I added a wireless card and a €15 Bluetooth stick/dongle thing.

 

Just curious as to why you didn't like your $1600 mac. What kind of mac was it, and why didn't you like it?

Edited January 17, 2007 by Darkelve

[SoulSe]

All I'm hearing is personal opinion. What I do find hard to believe is Linux users defending Windows Mobile.

 

I have an iPaq hw6915 - and I would argue that it is currently the best Windows Mobile device available (from what I've seen) - and it blows! Why? The operating system is quite simply the worst I have ever used. Hands down. How could you even begin to compare the iPhone to a WM device?

Well, now, you can't. They are aimed at entirely different Markets, as the Apple has no support whatsoever for third party applications. Sorry, but without that, I'd prefer the Windows Mobile device.

Doesn't support third party apps? :unsure: First I've heard of that. You might be right, but I can't find any info to confirm that anywhere. To my understanding, it does support third party apps.

 

First off, while you can use your fingers on current touch screens, doing so would limit it's life to a couple of months (I've had three Palms, two iPaqs and short spates with a range of other PDAs - the touch screens are not exactly robust). What Apple have done is come up with a resilient touch screen that can be used daily with your fingers and not bug out.

The others just werent designed to have fingers used on them. Apple most likely didnt create or invent it's touch screen, so that's a moot point. Samsung had it in a mobile phone first anyway...

Apple did invent theirs - of the 200 patents for the iPhone, most involve the screen. It sacrifices tactile-response for robustness, which I have no problem with.

 

Of course, Apple didn't invent the touch screen - but they seem to have perfected it. We'll only know when we get to play with one. So far I've read articles by two journalists who have and they both say it rocks.

 

Whether Linux users will admit it or not - I know (because I am one) that desktop Linux is unreliable from a user perspective and requires constant attention to keep going. That is fine on a toy machine, but I can not afford that in my work. On servers Linux is rock solid and my OS of choice (although that would change if I could afford an X server).

One day this will change, and ironically, it's apple that's shown its possible to solidify a unix environment into a coherent desktop. There's a lot of promising things moving at the moment towards that goal, but you are correct, the "Linux desktop" (and I hate that term so much) isnt quite up to scratch compared to OSX.

Exactly my point.

 

Not the smartphone market, no third party apps allowed.

Not the low/medium or even high cost markets, so expensive i'd classify it as 'boutique'

No 3G, which is an increasing part of hte market. Already most handsets here are 3G, and buy the time iPhone is even available in Australia.... it'll be one of the few "dinosaurs" left being sold.

 

My Nokia 6280 was half the price, ~$500AU and the iPhone just under $1000AU - I could get a half decent laptop for that. My phone was available a year ago, and does more than that iPhone does. Mine's been superceded by the 6283 iirc, which has improved functionality for an equivalent cost as mine.

 

iPhone undoubtedly does some things better, and has a "cooler" interface and wifi, but that does not justify a *doubling* of cost. The interface on my phone is just as effective for many things, and also ironically, more familiar. Keypad and dial button, that's what nearly every phone has used since the turn phones.

 

I don't know how apple can justify charging twice the price, for a device that does less, and has bugger all market to aim for.

It is a bit pricey right now, but still in the same bracket as my hw6915, which I would happily trade for an iPhone. By the time it hits Europe by the end of the year I'm sure it will support 3G. It didn't have to for the American market, since the best you can do in the States is EDGE. 3G would have been a waste of time.

 

Of course, with all the new technology in the iPhone the price will be high at first, the same was true for the iPod. Once retail opens and sales pick up it should drop quite heavily. That's how it happened with the iPod - and any new technology that incorporates parts and processes that have never been used before.

 

Of course, I haven't played with one yet, but Apple has a long record of not screwing up, so I have no reason to believe they have now.

 

I've had no problems with my WM device. I've seen no problems with regular use of the fingers (although who cares - this idea that no one wants to use a stylus is so alien to my experience...). I find it does everything I want and it does it well...

 

I also think it looks pretty cool. Sure It'd prefer it if it wasn't a Microsoft device, but I'm not that bothered. I honestly can't see a single reason why I'd ever want an iPhone over my current phone/PDA...

So your WM device has never crashed? Mine hangs all the time. The interface is clumsy and using it as an everyday mobile phone is a nightmare.

 

A stylus requires two hands, which is my problem with it. I need to be able to read / reply to SMS and make calls with one hand. Using your fingers is logically a better approach.

 

I'm not saying you need an iPhone - each to their own. But I can't imagine why anyone would prefer a WM device and I'd like to see some links about third party software on the iPhone, because I can't find any.

[Gowator]

...... And honestly, I think most people want to find fault in it because it's a Mac product - if it was some Linux-based phone with these amazing features, made by some new fangled Linux-based company, the reaction from people around here would be very different.

 

I posted the first link before but its worth a read...

I don't think Apple or Microsoft are intentionally evil. I just think that corporations cannot resist the urge to block competitors and squeeze customers at every turn. If Microsoft controls what software I can run, they will charge a lot of money for that software because I will be locked in.

 

http://www.michaelrobertson.com/archive.php?minute_id=168

See also

http://news.com.com/Getting+Bad+with+Apple..._3-5861493.html

 

I think I am the only person on planet earth who does not have a iPOD?

No, I don't have one either - ad don't plan to buy one anytime.

Nor do I see the articles above....

 

I think its great hardware* but the lock-in is just not acceptable to ME....

 

The fact its designed to be useless when the battery dies also sucks!

Lets face it for many purposes a 4GB iPod would still hold a lot of music in 5 years time... the lack of user replaceable battery means it won't... and I beleive this is by design...

They've even altered the iTunes software to limiting interoperability with music from competitor Real Networks. The problem is that this change all take place after you purchase the music and will continue to happen whenever it suits Apple. Music buyers are forced to use the new software because of bug fixes, security issues and new music needs they have, forcing users to meekly swallow the arbitrary changes Apple makes, which affects their music purchases. This is analogous to a rental agreement where the landlord can raise the rent, ban pets, or change other rules on a moment's notice.

 

And it's not just a bias, objective personal opinion. I've taken several human-computer interaction courses, and HCI is a personal interest of mine (I plan to concentrate in it for my Masters and Doctorate degrees). Based on many of the ideas present in HCI, OS X has a well-designed interface. This is more evident in the design of the iPod and the iPhone - but overall, Mac products are more inline with HCI principles than most other hardware and software vendors.

Like Arctic I guess Im not human :D

I'm not trashing HCI... but its not everything and sometimes its far less important than actually doing the job...

 

I used OS-X over XMAS as you know... some things I liked and other things I hated... somethings were "training" (like the 1 button mouse was impossible)

 

Many things are just workflow related... if we forget Gimp's restrictive 8 bit color space is it really so bad.. photoshop users generally think so but then they also knock Corel PSP ...

 

My feeling is that within certain workflows it is good and other workflows bad. For instance I could move my digital photo development and processing quiote happily to a Mac... along with Open Office and (see no real reason for MS office) such but I wouldn't want to move my whole workflow to Mac because its too restrictive.

 

In many ways its like arguing over VCR or recordable DVD..... yes DVD is technically better in MANY ways but not for the utility of just recording and achiving the Simpsons... and being able to rewatch it ...

On the other hand if I rent a movie I want it on DVD (pref high def to project onto my wall with full surround) but I never really considered high def a big plus watching a cartoon where people are yellow to save money :D

QUOTE("

iphitus")

My Nokia 6280 was half the price, ~$500AU and the iPhone just under $1000AU - I could get a half decent laptop for that.

My Nokia is an aging something or other.... can't read it its so scratched up :D and it does basic stuff like making calls. The nice thing is I can buy a replacement cover/battery including third party and in Europe you can ALWAYS find a Nokia charger and they are all the same..(OK they finally changed but it was consitent for years). Its not unusual for me to go to my local and ask for them to charge my phone while I have a drink!

 

In contrast, before that I had a expensive Sony-Erikson ... their were no officially recognised 3rd party batteries (the death of the phone cos I wasn't paying more than my present phone cost to replace a battery)

and the chargers changed each model... so you could never find a charger... unless you carried one. (bear in mind using a non endorsed battery invalidates the warranty)

 

I don't think its coincidence that the company that endorses 3rd party accessories and add ons for their phone is also embracing linux....

 

My Canon EOS DSLR camera

That's fightin talk in Nikon circles :D

Whether Linux users will admit it or not - I know (because I am one) that desktop Linux is unreliable from a user perspective and requires constant attention to keep going. That is fine on a toy machine' date=' but I can not afford that in my work. On servers Linux is rock solid and my OS of choice (although that would change if I could afford an X server).

 

That is my opinion. But there are facts - like hardware reliability, like the fact that Macs are not more expensive (compare features and you'll see that tyme is right - take into account the addition of WiFi, Bluetooth, tilt detection, HD size, Screen quality. The Mac Pro also out powers any similarly priced PC, the closest is a Dell that costs $2000 more).[/quote']

 

My Debian is reliable... and when I tried Suse it was reliable.... and its not a toy machine nor do I need constant attention to keep it going... my girlfriend uses Debian unstable and I don't play with her machine except for watching movies in bed sionce its in the bedroom... but its worked for her for several years with no attention except her updating gnutella / gaim etc. when the protocols change...

 

Even more her father who is IT illiterate to the point of Windws for Dummies being too complicated ... has now been using Linux (Debian unstable at the time) for nearly a year... other than a hardware fault (very cheap machine and 40 celcius/110F estimate) it has worked absolutely perfectly with no intervention...

 

His Windows laptop on the other hand .... is another story... and he is now thinking of converting it to linux too!

(well asking me) and its only lack of photoshop and a few bits of software he can't learn new that is stopping me just doing it.

 

Linux does let you break things but a good distro will run and run even on the desktop ...

 

Now the second point is hardware....

I have to agree that for the same money Apple laptops are as good or better than Compaq/HP or other brand names... yes you can buy cheap plastic lappies (I have one) BUT if you want the same build quality, battery life as the Mac you will probably spend as much or more.

 

Compaq/HP and probably levono the IBM spin off make some great machines BUT they a freakishly expensive when you go for the same quality and features as the Mac... the difference is Compaq do make budget plastic versions anmd if all you look at is CPU speed/HDD and memory then they appear similar but the build quality is crap...

If you want a cheap lappy buy a cheap one but don't expect it to keep working .... Mac don't give you the option... they don't do cheap unreliable hardware...

I must agree that it boils down to personal opinion. I have met with a share of people who have tried Mac and Linux and most prefer Linux over Mac, due to cost and the fact that they don't want a tie with yet another American Company.

How American of you!!!!

You don't need to be non-American to see that dominance of a single nation in any one area is not good for innovation. The US has some pretty quirky laws (Im not saying bad .. just by international developed country standards quirky)

refer back to http://www.michaelrobertson.com/archive.php?minute_id=168

 

But also the One Laptop per child initiative is keen not to lock this into anyone country...

In many cases the technology that can be exported from the US is restricted ... and some US laws unintentionally prevent opensource development (like the FAA laws about 802.11 firmware) ...

 

Additionally the US shelters its companies that do illegal acts elsewhere... Microsoft used this to delete linux from many XBOXES in Europe ... a crime which has a mandatory prison sentence in Germany at least...

Im guessing they didn't delete any from US boxes because this would be illegal but they are free to break the laws of other countries so long as they do it from Redmond. Also iTunes is set to become illegal in France UNLESS Apple provide cross platform compatibility so that you can use it legally without iTunes... this is not a bad thing but it might force an opening up and less restrictions that benefit EVERYONE.

In the same way the EU/Microsoft case was something unlikely to ever be achived in the US because of lobbying and what becomes vote buying. I'm not saying the EU would have been so rigerous against an EU company :D but then the US can also be useful for opening up European companies...

 

So a mix of different cultures and technology is probably a healthier thing all round... if the 90% market share company was Chinese Im sure you would feel the same way...

[SoulSe]

By the way: the iPhone DOES support third party apps, as explained over here.

 

The catch is that the applications must be approved by Apple. You could say that this sucks - me, I think I like the idea of a quality control, especially having used a WM device where many apps I've downloaded have buggered things up (Tomtom broke the Bluetooth, for one).

[iphitus]

I think its great hardware* but the lock-in is just not acceptable to ME....

 

The fact its designed to be useless when the battery dies also sucks!

Lets face it for many purposes a 4GB iPod would still hold a lot of music in 5 years time... the lack of user replaceable battery means it won't... and I beleive this is by design...

Rockbox. I installed rockbox on my ipod 2 months ago, and have not booted back into the apple os since. It's absolutely kickass, does everything twice as well as the apple OS and a heap more.

 

As for battery, there's enough places that have sprung up offering to do replacements for a reasonable amount, often with higher capacity batteries too. I havn't needed to, my ipod's a year old, and the battery still functions at near full capacity. Miraculous :)

 

They've even altered the iTunes software to limiting interoperability with music from competitor Real Networks. The problem is that this change all take place after you purchase the music and will continue to happen whenever it suits Apple. Music buyers are forced to use the new software because of bug fixes, security issues and new music needs they have, forcing users to meekly swallow the arbitrary changes Apple makes, which affects their music purchases. This is analogous to a rental agreement where the landlord can raise the rent, ban pets, or change other rules on a moment's notice.

 

Not quite. Real manipulated and worked out apple's DRM, allowing them to play apple DRM'ed music in their software. Apple, would have had no choice but to 'fix' that 'hole' in their DRM because of deals with the record companies to sell their music. So it's the record companies behind that.

 

My Nokia is an aging something or other.... can't read it its so scratched up :D and it does basic stuff like making calls. The nice thing is I can buy a replacement cover/battery including third party and in Europe you can ALWAYS find a Nokia charger and they are all the same..(OK they finally changed but it was consitent for years). Its not unusual for me to go to my local and ask for them to charge my phone while I have a drink!

 

In the last year or two, nokia has changed their charger plug to a smaller one. Pity, but Nokia took the pain away, by including an adaptor -- that lets me use the old standard plug on my new phone! So all those old nokia adaptors I have, still have a use! That, I consider, awesome.

 

My Canon EOS DSLR camera

That's fightin talk in Nikon circles :D

hah. I'm with Gowator on that one.

 

My Debian is reliable... and when I tried Suse it was reliable.... and its not a toy machine nor do I need constant attention to keep it going... my girlfriend uses Debian unstable and I don't play with her machine except for watching movies in bed sionce its in the bedroom... but its worked for her for several years with no attention except her updating gnutella / gaim etc. when the protocols change...

 

Even more her father who is IT illiterate to the point of Windws for Dummies being too complicated ... has now been using Linux (Debian unstable at the time) for nearly a year... other than a hardware fault (very cheap machine and 40 celcius/110F estimate) it has worked absolutely perfectly with no intervention...

 

His Windows laptop on the other hand .... is another story... and he is now thinking of converting it to linux too!

(well asking me) and its only lack of photoshop and a few bits of software he can't learn new that is stopping me just doing it.

 

It works for simpler users like them. But not everyone! Take a kid my age, who knows little about computers, and put Linux on their laptop. They will hate it, and i'll list why:

* Wireless. Linux' wireless support is there, but heavily encumbered by licensing issues. Tragic really. As a result, the userspace support is taking it's time too, and NetworkManager is the only tool i consider as easy to use as windows'/OSX wireless.

* Games. New users want to click and run (Sound familiar?). Although there's linux versions for some, not for everything. The newest titles rarely work out of the box too.

* Keeping up with the Jones' MSN, and other programs on windows often update with new features. Everyone else has this, and they wonder why you don't have it on linux. They don't understand, and thus they deem it inferior.

* Software. We don't have everything. Still. And sometimes what we have, lacks in features.

 

Last time I checked, Photoshop 7.0 ran in Wine. IIRC, later versions may also now run, and im pretty sure Crossover Office does support the latest. Codeweavers contribute back to wine a fair bit, so it'd be great to support them.

 

I have to agree that for the same money Apple laptops are as good or better than Compaq/HP or other brand names... yes you can buy cheap plastic lappies (I have one) BUT if you want the same build quality, battery life as the Mac you will probably spend as much or more.

 

But also the One Laptop per child initiative is keen not to lock this into anyone country...

In many cases the technology that can be exported from the US is restricted ... and some US laws unintentionally prevent opensource development (like the FAA laws about 802.11 firmware) ...

 

end up gettin that lappy here?

 

Not sure whether it specifically says 802.11 firmware, but afaik, for a device to be approved by the FAA, it has to only operate within it's legal frequency. This is done differently, firmware (rt61, rt71, ipw2x00, tiacx, broadcom, others), a binary blob (ipw3945, madwifi), and embedded into the hardware (rt2500, rt2400, many older devices)

 

Manufacturers tend to choose the firmware route, because it's less components, and thus cheaper hardware. As a result, we end up with firmware encumbered drivers and the ensuing mess that is Linux wireless. I summarised a majority of the drivers in this bug here, and you can see some pretty crap legal stuff preventing us from distributing them: http://bugs.archlinux.org/task/1224

 

James

 

<edit, quote tags killing me :)>

Edited January 17, 2007 by iphitus

[Gowator]

Rockbox. I installed rockbox on my ipod 2 months ago, and have not booted back into the apple os since. It's absolutely kickass, does everything twice as well as the apple OS and a heap more.

Yes but its only legal I presume in Australia (and only then since this month) when the Supreme court passed a landmark DRM case about mod chips saying that if they only enable the user to use the device (not copy games) then they are legal .. in particualr was the case of DVD zoning... and unlocking this (illegal in the UK but not enforced and paradoxically its also illegal to put zoning software on the device in the first place) wheras Australia rather sensibly IMHO decided if you are deliberatly locked out of watching a DVD you purchased you are perfectly OK to remove that impediment (but not copy the CD) ... hopefully this will have knock on effects in the UK...

 

As for battery, there's enough places that have sprung up offering to do replacements for a reasonable amount, often with higher capacity batteries too. I havn't needed to, my ipod's a year old, and the battery still functions at near full capacity. Miraculous :)

Yep its just an example but it still sucks they built that redundancy in instead of making it user servicable...

 

They've even altered the iTunes software to limiting interoperability with music from competitor Real Networks. The problem is that this change all take place after you purchase the music and will continue to happen whenever it suits Apple. Music buyers are forced to use the new software because of bug fixes, security issues and new music needs they have, forcing users to meekly swallow the arbitrary changes Apple makes, which affects their music purchases. This is analogous to a rental agreement where the landlord can raise the rent, ban pets, or change other rules on a moment's notice.

 

Not quite. Real manipulated and worked out apple's DRM, allowing them to play apple DRM'ed music in their software. Apple, would have had no choice but to 'fix' that 'hole' in their DRM because of deals with the record companies to sell their music. So it's the record companies behind that.

 

True ... but I don't think Apple were unhappy to plug the hole :D if you read the whole article its really the concept of companies not being able to resit the lock-in that is the issue (from my reading)

 

In the last year or two, nokia has changed their charger plug to a smaller one. Pity, but Nokia took the pain away, by including an adaptor -- that lets me use the old standard plug on my new phone! So all those old nokia adaptors I have, still have a use! That, I consider, awesome.

Yep its very cool.... and pretty much KISS philosophy - the plug is only for power ... and the inclusion of the adapter really is awesome... as is the fact I could have got a $10 charger instead of a $10 Australian to Euro plug converter :D when I was in Oz!

 

My Canon EOS DSLR camera

That's fightin talk in Nikon circles :D

hah. I'm with Gowator on that one.

LOL... both are really excellent and a lot is to do with familiarity...

 

It works for simpler users like them. But not everyone!

Yep but so does XP or OS-X ... which is the original point....

Take a kid my age, who knows little about computers, and put Linux on their laptop. They will hate it, and i'll list why:

* Wireless. Linux' wireless support is there, but heavily encumbered by licensing issues. Tragic really. As a result, the userspace support is taking it's time too, and NetworkManager is the only tool i consider as easy to use as windows'/OSX wireless.

Yep see my post on why its not good for one country to dominate ... this is all largely an accident by the FAA .. the legislation says a user cannot alter the power output... (I see why) but accidentally this means no open source... even from companies that WANT TO....

This of course then prevents competition by companies who seek competitive advantage by releasing source code and leads us to knock thoise same manufacturers who actually want to but cannot (or loose the right to sell in the US)

* Games. New users want to click and run (Sound familiar?). Although there's linux versions for some, not for everything. The newest titles rarely work out of the box too.

True but then does get a console sound familiar :D OS-X also has a restricted set of games compared to Windows..

* Keeping up with the Jones' MSN, and other programs on windows often update with new features. Everyone else has this, and they wonder why you don't have it on linux. They don't understand, and thus they deem it inferior.

True ... but then who wants to use MSN anyway .. I'm guessing if most people who do sat down with a lawyer and went through the EULA they might change thier minds pretty quickly...

 

* Software. We don't have everything. Still. And sometimes what we have, lacks in features.

 

Last time I checked, Photoshop 7.0 ran in Wine. IIRC, later versions may also now run, and im pretty sure Crossover Office does support the latest. Codeweavers contribute back to wine a fair bit, so it'd be great to support them.

Yes and OCR support is missing too. The question of if Wine is good or bad for linux is perhaps best left for elsewhere and pretty much catch-22 anyway :D I couldn't get CS2 working in Wine (and so I doubt codeweavers can) because its specifically designed not to.... Adobe put a lot of effort into this... presumably ...

 

Again I can see WHY... as opposed to flash versions missed (lazyness) I think they presume a lot of Linux users will only use cracked versions of photoshop ... Sad as it is to say this I think they are probably correct.

 

 

Not sure whether it specifically says 802.11 firmware, but afaik, for a device to be approved by the FAA, it has to only operate within it's legal frequency. This is done differently, firmware (rt61, rt71, ipw2x00, tiacx, broadcom, others), a binary blob (ipw3945, madwifi), and embedded into the hardware (rt2500, rt2400, many older devices)

 

Manufacturers tend to choose the firmware route, because it's less components, and thus cheaper hardware. As a result, we end up with firmware encumbered drivers and the ensuing mess that is Linux wireless. I summarised a majority of the drivers in this bug here, and you can see some pretty crap legal stuff preventing us from distributing them: http://bugs.archlinux.org/task/1224

 

James

 

<edit, quote tags killing me :)>

LOL tags... but yep its sad and I really doubt it was the intention of the FAA.... and the firmware route means cheaper hence they lose that advantage of they go HW only...

Didn't check the lionk yet but I looked into this a while ago and I like your term "legal crap" because that is what it is...

The problem is $$$$$ ....

Since we are talking apple.... back in the early DVD ROM days only Windows had a liscense to play DVD's on a PC... Apple made a big fuss saying how this was everything from illegal to just plain dumb (and I agreed) BUT then when Apple got the rights to play DVD's they suddenly switched sides....

 

If you compare with 802.11 firmware "legal crap" its the same story... MS and Apple will support the restriction and pay money for lobbying (in countries where its legal to buy votes and by other means elsewhere) to keep this law... because it gives them an advantage (at the expense of the customer being incidental)

 

So going back to the quote I took from Michael Robertson

I don't think Apple or Microsoft are intentionally evil. I just think that corporations cannot resist the urge to block competitors and squeeze customers at every turn. If Microsoft controls what software I can run, they will charge a lot of money for that software because I will be locked in.

 

I think this just generally hold true.... you can add Sony (as you know my opinion) as well.

In the end companies have to make a concerted effort to be open, its not natural for them especially today. Intel is I think trying hard as is IBM but its not a simple thing for them to do.

Of course Intel and IBM are not perfect but they have taken the steps and are making the effort and in the end it comes down to a company culture which as we chatted about can vary drastically from continent to continent.

[tyme]

A note on the iPod and DRM:

You don't have to put DRM'ed music on your iPod. Putting music on your iPod doesn't DRM it. You can load music into iTunes that isn't DRM'ed. AFAIK, the only time you have DRM'ed music is when you buy it from the iTunes store. And that's more at the request, nay, demand of the big record labels. Without the DRM, there would be no iTunes store, because the record labels would never have agreed to it. And is DRM really that bad? The copyright holder has a right to decide how their media gets distributed. I don't own the song, I own the file or the CD (it's physical/digital form, not the actual song), and I don't have a right to redistribute it - DRM is simply an attempt at stopping illegal distribution. And it's a thin line between fair use and copyright holders rights. But please, please, I beg you, let's not go down that discussion, because it really doesn't belong here. If you want to discuss all that, start a topic in Talk-Talk or OTW.

[phunni]

So your WM device has never crashed? Mine hangs all the time. The interface is clumsy and using it as an everyday mobile phone is a nightmare.

 

A stylus requires two hands, which is my problem with it. I need to be able to read / reply to SMS and make calls with one hand. Using your fingers is logically a better approach.

 

I'm not saying you need an iPhone - each to their own. But I can't imagine why anyone would prefer a WM device and I'd like to see some links about third party software on the iPhone, because I can't find any.

 

I wouldn't say never - but almost never and, when it has, it's always been due to resource hungry 3rd party apps...

 

I can read/reply to SMS (OK - I can't actually reply to them without the stylus, but it doesn't bother me...) and make calls wth one hand - I can actually do most things without the stylus - it just doesn't bother me to... Actually I don't really use the stylus for when I use the phoen features at all (except, as I say, writing SMS...)

 

In fact I only really use the stylus when I'm using it as a PDA - and not even al lthe time then. Which doesn't seem unreasonable to me at all - but as I say, I can't really see what the problem is with a stylus. OK - I guess it would be annoying for having to make/answer calls - but I really don't...

 

WM5 is a big step up from previous versions - I would agree with you about how it sucks if we were talking about previous versions...

[Gowator]

A note on the iPod and DRM:

You don't have to put DRM'ed music on your iPod. Putting music on your iPod doesn't DRM it. You can load music into iTunes that isn't DRM'ed. AFAIK, the only time you have DRM'ed music is when you buy it from the iTunes store. And that's more at the request, nay, demand of the big record labels. Without the DRM, there would be no iTunes store, because the record labels would never have agreed to it.

I think the issue is that if you purchase music it can only be played on your iPod?

The issue seems either to invokie strong sentiment one way or another

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/27/technolo...nyt&emc=rss

is obvious passionate but fact wise the confusion over Quick doesn't shout "well researched piece..."

 

Im not sure if this is any better... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4828296.stm

but my understanding was

The French bill would let music fans download music to their iPods from services other than iTunes or to rival players from the French iTunes store

and notice in the same article

 

The draft copyright law also introduces fines of between 38 and 150 euros (£26-£104) for people pirating music or movies at home.

 

 

And is DRM really that bad? The copyright holder has a right to decide how their media gets distributed. I don't own the song, I own the file or the CD (it's physical/digital form, not the actual song), and I don't have a right to redistribute it - DRM is simply an attempt at stopping illegal distribution. And it's a thin line between fair use and copyright holders rights. But please, please, I beg you, let's not go down that discussion, because it really doesn't belong here. If you want to discuss all that, start a topic in Talk-Talk or OTW.

Fair enough .... "it's a thin line between fair use and copyright holders rights." is true ... but as was touted in the US press this is not a bill to allow indiscriminate copying ... Ill try and keep away from that part.

 

and I don't have a right to redistribute it - DRM is simply an attempt at stopping illegal distribution.

As you say its a thin line but in the context of this discussion ... one has to ask the question ..

 

Is DRM simply an attempt at stopping illegal distribution.

 

Going back to the statement by Michael Robertson the companies don't seem to be able to avoid the temptation of using it to control and restrict user choice.

 

Along the same lines as the discussion on modchips... it depends if you own the XBOX... vs the software on the XBOX... etc.

 

With the CD its sure you own the CD ?? and the right to play music off that CD ... (provided certain conditions are met (like being alone in a soundproofed building to prevent unliscenced people hearing it :D) ) but at some point the whole discussion goes from the tangible ... a physical XBOX or CD to the intangible in hidden software .. (by which I mean the copy protection is actually hidden)

 

Its somewhat different to a book ... you can quote books etc. copy selected parts etc .etc. so in the end the whole intangible thing just becomes so abstract it doesn't really mean much... in the end only music and film seem to have this type of IP ... whereby they can dictate where you listen/watch and who with... the idea of reading aloud from a book being an IP issue seems somewhat ridiculous? (leastways to me) but watching a film in public (or any of the places listed in the wanring at the beginning) is .. or playing a CD loud or in a shop...

 

So for me the problem isn't so simple, it seems music and film industries want their cake and eat it... and for a long time managed because 45 rpm records and celluose film were difficult to home copy so it was clear anyone copying a 45 or a movie was doing it for fraudulent purposes...

 

So the right to re-distribute it is one thing but DRM is stopping a lot of other arguably fair-use practices...the main problem being IMHO the arguaments were never made..