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I think the issue is that if you purchase music it can only be played on your iPod?
In it's digital file form, you can only play it with something that is capable of decoding the DRM. That means an iPod or iTunes.

 

But anything you purchased, you can burn to a CD, without any copy protection, DRM, or anything. Just a standard music CD, like you would buy in a store. You lose some quality doing this, but it's neither noticeable (to the untrained ear), nor is the end result any lower quality than the sound of the CD you would buy in a store. Once the songs are on the CD (you can only burn it once) you can do anything you could do with a CD from your favorite music store.

 

So the right to re-distribute it is one thing but DRM is stopping a lot of other arguably fair-use practices...the main problem being IMHO the arguaments were never made..
If you have a better way to do it that doesn't infringe on some fair use practices, then feel free to suggest it to the record companies. The fact of the matter is, a lot of "fair use" practices are also manners in which you can pirate. Like I said, it's a thin line, and IMHO, the way Apple does it with iTunes and the iPod is quite possibly the best solution as of yet.

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fair enough (skipping as much DRM stuff as possible and trying to stay on topic)
So the right to re-distribute it is one thing but DRM is stopping a lot of other arguably fair-use practices...the main problem being IMHO the arguaments were never made..
If you have a better way to do it that doesn't infringe on some fair use practices, then feel free to suggest it to the record companies. The fact of the matter is, a lot of "fair use" practices are also manners in which you can pirate. Like I said, it's a thin line, and IMHO, the way Apple does it with iTunes and the iPod is quite possibly the best solution as of yet.

I agree its imperfect ... however what I feel is that it is balanced way in favor of the record companies but regarding the new phono and lock-ins to products in general is where I think the issue overlaps...

 

If you analyse the way apple "does it with iTunes" then its not a bad way but again it meets that specification that they just couldn't 'help themselves' making their own DRM stuff... that only the iPod would read.

 

This is why in a way this needs some coherent legislation and the same way the way France put forwards isn't bad either :D i.e. If Apple can think of a better way then ....

 

The fact it can be played on a normal Cd player is good... presuming you own one :D (I haven't used one in ages when I think about it)

 

Anyway ... the DRM part is just an example and lets not get to bogged down as you said:D

Other issues I have are things like proprietry connectors and such...again a Apple/Sony type thing to do...

Even though Apple now provide a HD-15 converter for the minimac (a good step) they still have the philosophy of lock-in in many ways... just like Sony with the memory stick etc. and like I said about Nokia... the ability to use any Nokia charger is really useful as is the ability to buy 3rd part batteries and stuff...and it just illustrates a different company philosophy... to "how do we keep people buying our products"

 

Memory sticks and funny connectors are something I try and stay away from :D experience has told me they tend to break and not be replaceable .. etc. or like the mem stick... do I then buy a Sony player and Sony Camera even if its not really what I want just because it has the connectors or same memory chips?

 

So overall I think the consumer benefits from more choice ... and that since legislation is being made to protect the corporations it should equally protect the consumer...

In many ways the industry has itself to blame... the music companies ignored the consumer choice to download files... for a long time instead wanting to preserve its CD business... the reult was illegal downloading becoming popular ... the movie iondustry signed the exclusive MS deal over DVD playback... the result was libdvdcss ... and again it did more than was needed for fair use... If a linux method HAS been available for $5 or $20 at the time the chance is libdvdcss would not have become the defacto way to rip DVD's to share on p2p ....

Its ironic perhaps it was created to allow people to PLAY their legally bought DVD's on non Windows OS... but in cracking the protection it also allows copying...

 

Again on batteries

http://www.ipodhacks.com/article.php?sid=595

In Britain, eleven Members of Parliament have heard the citizens' outcry regarding dwindling iPod battery life and have filed an Early Day Motion in the House of Commons, demanding that Apple make replacement batteries readily available and reasonably priced.

Again its swings and roundabouts or caveat emptor... One could say that Granny should have asked about this at the retail store prior to buying but then you can also say its like selling a car and not being able to refuel it...

 

Overall, items are becoming more disposable.. in the developed world services and such are becoming prohibitively expensive compared to a consumer item made in the third world by the likes of Apple and Sony...

My washing machine recently broke... its not an expensive one but ... looking into geting it serviced was over 50% of the price of a new one... in the end I just took it apart and serviced it myself and found a bobby pin in the water pump... now its working again :D but so many people just throw them out...

 

Manufacturers have responded by building in obscelecence... Ive told the story og my HP printer before but basically I had a paper feed gear wheel replaced under warranty some 11 months into a 1 yr warrantry

.. 1 months later it died again... and I gave it to my brother who luckily has a CAD/CAM laser cutter lying around :D so he knocked up an aluminium wheel and replaced it and the thing is now 6-7 years old and still working in a much higher turnaround environment...This wheel is actually made of specially soft plastic... its designed to fail because the manufacturer is basicaly giving you a very close fascimjile of the heavy duty office machines and the only real difference is this one is built to fail..

 

I just feel this is wrong... instead of the benefits of cheap manufacturing being passed onto the consumer they are swallowed by the company... and lets not get into the price of inkjet carts ....

 

Again my Nokia is still going...

The French bill would let music fans download music to their iPods from services other than iTunes or to rival players from the French iTunes store
If we jsut look at this, it is unreasonable?

When my iPod dies shouldn't I still have the right to listen to the music? (and shouldn't I choose to buy another iPod or not at this point or perhaps I want to run linux :D ) .. in the same way you can argue its in the fine print... but equally its taking advantage of niaevity of consumers ...

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When my iPod dies shouldn't I still have the right to listen to the music?
The music isn't tied to your iPod, it's tied to your iTunes account. If your iPod dies, you should have been smart enough to make a backup, which you can put on your new iPod. If you want to use it elsewhere, burn it to a CD and then rip it from said CD. This is just as legal as ripping a standard CD.

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When my iPod dies shouldn't I still have the right to listen to the music?
The music isn't tied to your iPod, it's tied to your iTunes account. If your iPod dies, you should have been smart enough to make a backup, which you can put on your new iPod. If you want to use it elsewhere, burn it to a CD and then rip it from said CD. This is just as legal as ripping a standard CD.

That not really what I mean... shouldn't you have the choice to change player to a non Apple player?

 

I realise this isn't what Apple want but and this is my main point about having the cake and eating it...

.... Apple should decide are they leasing the music OR selling it...

 

The confusion is largely because they SELL the iPod and lease the music but the music is tied to having a working iPod...

 

Saying you should be smart enough to back it up isn't really 'fair' either... people are buying the iPod as a backup in many ways... and its advertised as this...

 

Of course one day it will fail... but most people are not going to consider this... (it is a consumer device after all)

at this point they go back to the store to buy an iPod and find some Chinese made MP4 player for 1/10th of the price ... these things cost very little to make I just got a 4GB one in Vietnam for about US$50 ...

Its also expandable with SD cards so I can stick another 4GB in ...anyway ... at this point the person might have $1000 or more invested in iTunes...and then the iPod fails and so thier choice is somewhat limited by this investment...

 

So back to being able to rip the CD ....

OK cool but doesn't this defeat the stated purpose of the DRM software?

the purpose if after all "to protect the artists rights" which is mainly BS because its protecting the record labels rights not the artist in 90% of cases... because the record labels "own" the artists in a very similar way to plantations used to own slaves... the main difference being that its only their IP they own and they get freed after 5 records (subject to approval by the record label)

 

Anyway for further details see Southpark... ;) they make good arguaments both ways...

 

but basically since thats a strong statement: I Italicised its only their IP because we are in effect saying "anything you think of, write or whatever is owned by us until we say so... which is basically saying IP is something to be bought and sold...

 

but either way....

 

What Im saying is they should either lease the music or sell it .... because it is a consumer item but one that is being marketed with a lock-in that isn't apparent to most users... they buy the iPod, find they need iTunes and go on from there... thier intention was to buy a "mp3 player" but they end up signing up for iTunes and then this locks them back into the iPod...

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but the music is tied to having a working iPod.
No, the music is tied to having one of four things (the last being in the legal gray area):
  1. A working computer with iTunes installed
  2. A working cd player (if you choose to burn the music to a CD)
  3. A working iPod (if you choose to carry it digitally)
  4. Another player (if you choose to burn it to a CD, and then rip it from said CD to mp3/ogg/etc)

So back to being able to rip the CD .... OK cool but doesn't this defeat the stated purpose of the DRM software?
Without the ability to burn to a CD only iPod owners would be able to use iTunes, and that would be even more of a lock-in (which is apparently how you think it works, when it's not). One could also think of it as one of those things...oh what are they called...oh yes, compromises.

 

What Im saying is they should either lease the music or sell it
You're making a non-existent distinction. I purchased the music file from iTunes, that is now my file. I did not purchase rights to the song, I purchased the right to own a copy of the song. There is no leasing - I have the file for as long as I want it.

 

It's really not as inconvenient or "morally wrong" as everyone wants to think it is. I've purchased a few titles from iTunes, and it doesn't bother me how it's set up.

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It's really not as inconvenient or "morally wrong" as everyone wants to think it is. I've purchased a few titles from iTunes, and it doesn't bother me how it's set up.

I'm not sure morally wrong is the correct phrase... I (personally think its too strong perhaps)

First off remember your a self-confessed geek ... so this applies a lot less to you than granny who bought it for her grandaughter

Anyway I was in a shop Im sure Iph knows well (J&B HiFi in Melbourne) the other week (actually buying an iRiver for my GF) and a guy was in with the iPod saying he can't get it to work... he was told by the staff (and this might be incorrect but its what he was told) he had to activate it by using iTunes...

Now if this is true then I don't think its reasonable you have to subscribe to iTunes (even if its free) to 'activate' the iPod... this is not exactly common knowedge and one presumes then you have Windows or OS-X... (lets presume most people realise you need a PC) .. but it can presumably be activated/hacked without it .. Amarok says it synchs so... BUT then it would be illegal anywhere except Australia where one presumes its allowed under the new case for the XBOX since its basically the same thing..?

 

Either way ... the "legal gray area" simply means the stated reason for the DRM is BS... obviously if you can rip it then its not preventing you copying it... its making it very slightly more awkward but not really difficult... BUT what it is doing is making it more difficult (and questionably legal) to use it on another player...

 

 

...

but the music is tied to having a working iPod.
No, the music is tied to having one of four things (the last being in the legal gray area):
  1. A working computer with iTunes installed
  2. A working cd player (if you choose to burn the music to a CD)
  3. A working iPod (if you choose to carry it digitally)
  4. Another player (if you choose to burn it to a CD, and then rip it from said CD to mp3/ogg/etc)

So back to being able to rip the CD .... OK cool but doesn't this defeat the stated purpose of the DRM software?
Without the ability to burn to a CD only iPod owners would be able to use iTunes, and that would be even more of a lock-in (which is apparently how you think it works, when it's not). One could also think of it as one of those things...oh what are they called...oh yes, compromises.

 

What Im saying is they should either lease the music or sell it
You're making a non-existent distinction. I purchased the music file from iTunes, that is now my file. I did not purchase rights to the song, I purchased the right to own a copy of the song. There is no leasing - I have the file for as long as I want it.

 

Yes you have the file but not to do with as you wish... if it was your file you could hack it ... but they are retaining their ability to stop you using it as you wish... so you purchased the rights in a specifically designed format...

by parallel if I buy a book and decide to rip off the binding and cut the pages and rebind it half sized (to fit in my pocket say) then I can do that because I own the book....Im not allowed to sell it as my book or copy and distribute it because I only own the rights to own/read the book but physically how a treat (or mistreat it) is up to me...

 

The iPod is the same.... when the battery dies you are free to use it as a paper weight because you own it EXCEPT what you are not free to do is rip off the Os and put on your own (like Iph has done) ... (whereas he now is) ...

So my arguament is you don't REALLY own it because it has stuff embedded into it to prevent you using it as you want... and the DMA stops you hacking it to use it as you want...

 

If I buy a car and want to customise it then I can go right ahead.. but if I lease a car I can't ... so in some ways its like this... you are leasing the right to own the iPod but you are not free to use it as you wish...

 

In either respect your rights to own it and do whatever you want are compromised....

 

The real point to this isn't protecting the artists .. its protecting Apples lock-in... and if this was a non electronic item like a car then it would be clearly judged as an unfair practice... like if Ford sold you a car could only take thier fuel (or Accura sold you one would opnly take their oil) but because of the intangible nature of the DRM software it is somehow viewed differently...

 

Remembere this is a consumer item ... I live in the same world..(I see the same advertisments). I just never owned an iPod but you are telling me lots of new stuff that isn't readily apparent (or understandable) to a non geek.

 

Like I say this isn't necassarily the end of the world... but its also not a consumer oriented position ... and Im sure its catching many people out....

All in all its becoming a more common business practice but being older than you I remember when it wasn't...

I somewhat resent having to read the 6pt fine print that seems to come with consumer items now...back on the subject of phones...

 

See http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/6252991.stm (particularly the comments at the bottom)

This is my personal interest in phones... I call, text (SMS) and thats about it... I don't want a camera or mp3 player ... I actually have a camera on mine but its not used... (well some test shots) so when i buy a phone I just want a straight forwards contract ... not pages of fine print...

Don't get me wrong I have nothing against geek toys... phones just aren't one that interests me... so if I buy one advertised as playing "my music" I don't want to have to use iTunes...

The reason is a phone for me is not an interesting toy but a consumer item and Im just Joe average consumer ...

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a guy was in with the iPod saying he can't get it to work... he was told by the staff (and this might be incorrect but its what he was told) he had to activate it by using iTunes...

Now if this is true then I don't think its reasonable you have to subscribe to iTunes (even if its free) to 'activate' the iPod...

AFAIK, You do not have to "activate" it with iTunes. iTunes is the software that you use to put files onto your iPod (for Windows) - I don't think you even have to have an iTunes store account or anything, you just have to load your music into iTunes and then you can sync it to your iPod. There are other ways of doing this, of course, but iTunes is the most common tool. I don't know what these people were talking about, but it's been my experience (in the US, anyways) that Apple Store employees are...hm...how to say...not the most technically inclined.

 

so you purchased the rights in a specifically designed format...
Yup, and I was aware of that when I purchased it. And I still have a choice - I can choose to get my music from one of the many other online services (Napster, Rhapsody) instead of Apple. That's my choice. I can choose to get a different player, that's my choice. Everyone has the choice, and if they don't like Apple's DRM scheme, they should go somewhere else, and let the market speak for itself.

 

You don't change things by trying to force someone to do things your way. You just find someone who does do it your way, and leave the other in the dust.

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Well, I am actually disgusted to let anyone know I am American at the moment, until we take a different stand on how this country operates I refuse to be proud of it.

 

To say Linux as a desktop is not stable is maybe a matter of your experiences, I have had nothing but good experience with Linux as a desktop and prefer it over ANYTHING.

 

Just me and yes I am hardcore Linux, I have been windows free except from work for 1 year! :) To me that is the largest acomplishment. Once again my opinion.

 

I don't doubt Apple Hardware reliability, they use PowerPC components, does IBM sound familiar? I would take a Thinkpad over a MacBook any day!

 

Carry on now....

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Well, I am actually disgusted to let anyone know I am American at the moment, until we take a different stand on how this country operates I refuse to be proud of it.

 

To say Linux as a desktop is not stable is maybe a matter of your experiences, I have had nothing but good experience with Linux as a desktop and prefer it over ANYTHING.

 

Yes. it depends on experience. The desktop is generally stable, but not usable enough for some audiences, and still has some rough edges.

 

Just me and yes I am hardcore Linux, I have been windows free except from work for 1 year! :) To me that is the largest acomplishment. Once again my opinion.

Congrats.

I don't doubt Apple Hardware reliability, they use PowerPC components, does IBM sound familiar? I would take a Thinkpad over a MacBook any day!

 

Carry on now....

They're an Intel shop now. Havn't been watching the news? No more PPC's from apple. The point about reliability, isnt so much about what components they use, but their overall build quality, which is excellent. The components they use, are mostly mainstream and in being so are high enough quality anyway.

 

James

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Well, I am actually disgusted to let anyone know I am American at the moment, until we take a different stand on how this country operates I refuse to be proud of it.
Did I miss something? :unsure:

 

Heck, I'm South African - but I'm proud of any nation that can come up with something as sweet as the iPhone :P

 

To say Linux as a desktop is not stable is maybe a matter of your experiences, I have had nothing but good experience with Linux as a desktop and prefer it over ANYTHING.

 

Just me and yes I am hardcore Linux, I have been windows free except from work for 1 year! :) To me that is the largest acomplishment. Once again my opinion.

9 years here, although I broke the winning streak with an install of Windows last year (I had to check a website I made in IE and I wanted to play WoW without Cedega). We can argue the effectiveness of Linux as a desktop operating system til we're blue in the face. My personal opinion is that I can't bank on it in an everyday, working environment and I think it still has a long way to go before being a complete desktop solution. It rocks the big ones on servers and always has and I guess for basic desktop users it's OK. But the numbers speak for themselves; until Linux offers more rock-solid install procedure and cohesion in the desktop environment it will remain on the bottom-rung.

 

I don't doubt Apple Hardware reliability, they use PowerPC components, does IBM sound familiar? I would take a Thinkpad over a MacBook any day!

 

Carry on now....

Actually they use Intel now - but that doesn't matter. Apple hardware is superior because it is streamlined and the build-quality is quite simply the best in the market. I get laptops to test all of the time, being a tech journalist. The Thinkpad is the best PC laptop I have used - an still nowhere near as good as my Powerbook. The biggest problem is that it uses Windows or Linux - both of which are crap on laptops, especially with sleep-states, something only Apple has got right - I can close my Powerbook and it sleeps immediately and I can leave it that way for days - open it again and it wakes immediately with my desktop exactly as I left it. No Linux / Windows laptop can do that. Period. My Powerbook has enjoyed uptime of 28 days and a colleague of mine has a Macbook that is coming up on 50 days uptime. These are machines that are constantly transported, go with us on holiday, to meetings, spend a couple of days sleeping on desks, etc.

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These are machines that are constantly transported, go with us on holiday, to meetings, spend a couple of days sleeping on desks, etc.

 

Am I correct in saying that Macbooks are especially useful for people who travel a lot (I mean compared to most "Windows" laptops)?

 

Well, maybe that's logical for a "notebook", but I know a lot of people buying laptops and then they just keep it on some table in the house all of the time!

Edited by Darkelve

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Talking about Apple, I found the experiences of "this guy" interesting to read: http://www.bitrot.de/macswitch.html

 

It's a little dated, but interesting nonetheless.

 

 

And it underscores one of the most important advantages of Linux: between OSX, Windows and Linux, only with Linux you are totally in control.

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Well, I am actually disgusted to let anyone know I am American at the moment, until we take a different stand on how this country operates I refuse to be proud of it.

Did I miss something? :unsure:

 

Heck, I'm South African - but I'm proud of any nation that can come up with something as sweet as the iPhone :P

The two don't necassarily have to have any link.. indeed in most cases its better not to IMHO. Back in Aparthied years you could still be proud to be South African without supporting and being embarassed by your government. If this wasn't the case then a black or colored person back then couldn't be proud to be whomever they identify with... :D (enough touching the edges of politics right now though that's for OTW)

 

Actually they use Intel now - but that doesn't matter. Apple hardware is superior because it is streamlined and the build-quality is quite simply the best in the market.

Actually IBM build quality is excellent in their top range product... styling is something else unfortunately....

So far as IBM they make the best processors for fpu calculations (by speed if not power consumption) and the best most innovative storage... which is why Apple used a lot of their components :D

Comparing a IBM and Sun server the IBM's are way better engineered (Sun welding is crap one ones I have worked with) ...

 

I get laptops to test all of the time, being a tech journalist. The Thinkpad is the best PC laptop I have used - an still nowhere near as good as my Powerbook. The biggest problem is that it uses Windows or Linux - both of which are crap on laptops, especially with sleep-states, something only Apple has got right - I can close my Powerbook and it sleeps immediately and I can leave it that way for days - open it again and it wakes immediately with my desktop exactly as I left it. No Linux / Windows laptop can do that. Period. My Powerbook has enjoyed uptime of 28 days and a colleague of mine has a Macbook that is coming up on 50 days uptime. These are machines that are constantly transported, go with us on holiday, to meetings, spend a couple of days sleeping on desks, etc.

 

Yes so far as laptops the whole package for a MacBook is what makes it .. the build quality and OS integration is the key.

 

Am I correct in saying that Macbooks are especially useful for people who travel a lot (I mean compared to most "Windows" laptops)?

 

Well, maybe that's logical for a "notebook", but I know a lot of people buying laptops and then they just keep it on some table in the house all of the time!

 

Well read the above...

As always, it depends what you need a laptop for....

I have one friend who needs a laptop because she uses the kitchen table to work... her reason for needing a laptop is something to be able to remove in one go... her needs are basic WP and Internet so for her a $500 laptop with linux is probably ideal... she doesn't need battery life or power or advanced progs ...

A lot of people use laptops for spurious reasons, because they are "cool" or "their friends got one" ... and others use a laptop where a external disk might be more useful ... or even a minimac ...

 

I know one person on a photography forum who wanted a laptop to back up his photo's when on vacation...

Whatever way you look at it if this is the sole use of the laptop ... its complete overkill. Its rue, its very difficult to get RAW files backed up onto CD... (90% of places can't do this because they only do jpeg's and jpegs are crap for recording photo's, just take my word or start a thread :D) .. but you can buy external HD based photo storage devices cheaper which are smaller, lighter, take less power and basically if you need them on an extended shoot (like a 3 week bush walk) can be charged from cheap and lightweight solar power chargers ... switched off they hold a charge for weeks and switching on is 1-2 seconds boot ... etc. even the MacBooks can't compete as a simple place to store your photo's...

 

But for a person who needs to do serious work on-the-road then the MacBooks I don't think even have a competitor.

 

edits freakin quotes....

Edited by Gowator

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Well, I am actually disgusted to let anyone know I am American at the moment, until we take a different stand on how this country operates I refuse to be proud of it.

Did I miss something? :unsure:

 

Heck, I'm South African - but I'm proud of any nation that can come up with something as sweet as the iPhone :P

The two don't necassarily have to have any link.. indeed in most cases its better not to IMHO. Back in Aparthied years you could still be proud to be South African without supporting and being embarassed by your government. If this wasn't the case then a black or colored person back then couldn't be proud to be whomever they identify with... :D (enough touching the edges of politics right now though that's for OTW)

Sorry, I still don't understand what you all are on about.

 

I'm proud to be South African - I was even proud to be South African during the apartheid years because I saw how hard my fellow countrymen were fighting for freedom and moving towards the world's first and only peaceful revolution. I'm prouder of my country than anyone I know - why are we discussing how proud we are of our countries in a thread about the iPhone?

 

Actually they use Intel now - but that doesn't matter. Apple hardware is superior because it is streamlined and the build-quality is quite simply the best in the market.

Actually IBM build quality is excellent in their top range product... styling is something else unfortunately....

So far as IBM they make the best processors for fpu calculations (by speed if not power consumption) and the best most innovative storage... which is why Apple used a lot of their components :D

Comparing a IBM and Sun server the IBM's are way better engineered (Sun welding is crap one ones I have worked with) ...

I never disputed the quality of IBM Thinkpads - they are exceptionally good. Unfortunately they are crippled by their operating system. If I had to use a PC it would be a Thinkpad (Lenovo makes them now, not IBM, although they are aligned).

 

EDIT: I didn't have to edit any tags! Maybe it's because I use a Mac :cheeky:

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