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i don`t blame them for adding a service pack that actually makes the system safer. i just thought of the poor users that will never understand why their apps won`t work or behave strangely and who will likely never find out how to fix it.... and the poor admins... oh my god... :D

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Right now, I am having less trouble with Win98SE and Win2000 Pro, than I am with Mandrake (none, none, and tons of total lockups, respectively). I am sorely tempted to go back to my Chaintech mobo, and old ATI card, just to have my Mandrake again (9.1 Powerpack). Then the CGI only system will wait until I get the remaining parts for it.

 

Either that or NO linux for now.

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well, if linux won`t work properly on your box, that is a pity for sure. i don`t say/claim that linux-distros will work on everybox, because that would be a lie. if windows suits your tastes/purposes better, then use it, if you want. why not? as long as you are able to make your system halfway stable and secure... :)

 

i know that sometimes, it is hard to really adopt to gnu/linux if you are still accustomed to the windows way. that is: you go to a site and install the driver/software and here we go... if (!) it works. i do remember several serious hardware issues with win, where harddrives didn`t work properly, neither graphics or networking.

 

to me it seems as if a windows user thinks: well, that driver must work... somehow. if it doesn`t, i can still give the hardware back to the vendor. with gnu/linux we have another approach: it doesn`t work? so, let`s find a way to make it work.

 

everyone has to make a personal decision which way he prefers more. for me, it is sometimes the first way (when i am really lazy :P), but most of the times, it try to get that thing working, knowing that my experience might help others out there, who have the same problem. and that i am able to do so (because of transparency and open source code) is the biggest advantage gnu/linux offers imho.

 

(and security updates are not 90+MB big... ;))

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Let's be fair about it. The Windows firewall is just blocking a lot of the ports that those apps used. No wonder they don't work the same. But this is good security practices. We can't have the cake and eat it, complaining about MS lax security standards and bashing them for implementing tighter security.

 

Maybe I'm cynical but for microsoft to offer a service pack that effectively emasculates comptitors products does not suggest they have their customers interests at heart. I suspect it is a ploy to keep you binning and upgrading your computer.

 

Norton Antivirus 2003  2003  Symantec

Norton Systemworks 2003 - GoBack Personal Edition  Other MS  Symantec

Norton Systemworks 2003 Professional Edition  2003  Symantec

 

(they are now incorporating their own) CD writer,(I have Nero should I now bin it and use the MS version), office suite

 

Office  11  Microsoft

Office - Power Point 2002 (German)  2002  Microsoft

Office Access 2002  2002  Microsoft

Office System - Power Point  2003  Microsoft

Office XP Access  10  Microsoft

Office XP Professional Excel 10.0 SP2  ---  Microsoft

Office XP SP2 - PowerPoint  11  Microsoft

Office XP Standard  10  Microsoft

Outlook 2000  9  Microsoft

Outlook 2002  10  Microsoft

Outlook 2003  11  Microsoft

 

They are even screwing up their own office suites should you now buy the latest office version for £450?

 

For someone that does not work in IT but works with it that little lot is a nightmare it means you either learn it for yourself or pay for IT support because unless you spend a lot of time poking around your computer no longer works and you don't know what you did to it because all you did was download a service pack because you trusted microsoft and really you didn't know you had to buy a whole new computer and replace all the software. Did all these products suddenly become useless or is it deliberate?

 

At least with linux there are forums like this where you can trawl for knowledge and learn what is going on, you try knowing you will have to learn, but you do with windows anyway but all you can do with windows is shove it in and hope it works because you are screwed if it doesn't.

 

If that was me I would have to replace my antivirus, firewall, office suite aargh!

 

 

I have no idea why Wine is bundled. Nothing seems to work properly under Wine. I certainly wouldn't trust it to be stable enough to work on important documents using it to get to office software or even to check my email through it. It seems to exist just as a selling point for people leaving Windows. To me, the existence of Wine is a milestone that marks the failure of Linux development to truly offer equivalent, alternative software.

 

Try the office suites like open office or star office they are streaks ahead of MS office, at afraction of the price you can afford to try them. If you have to you can save in word format or excel, whatever even the presentation suite can be saved as powerpoint if you are using it on different computers. Try getting MS office to do that or open and save in anything but MS office.

 

Use PDF files? open office has a pdf writer. Have a look at pdf.com if you want a free pdf creator for windows.

 

Most of the IT guys I know don't get the point about the office suites they work on computers not with them. I need software that can open anything not just a narrow range of file types MS office is too expensive and just not as good.

 

artic, that last post of yours just gives even more reason to stay away from XP who needs the hassle. who needs to pay through the nose for the hassle.

 

My wife just bought a laptop with XP- trip to shop return home, installed norton systemworks after spending most of day trying to connect to internet found out the problem was windows and norton systemworks not being compatible. second trip to shop refund and exchange for macafee apparently, they PC world, are having dozens returned. MS office £450, however as teacher she gets to use the school copy, MS has such a grip she can't accept that SO works just as well cos she knows microsoft only works with microsoft although she now knows the problem is not that other products are inferior but still getting her to change :wall: women.

 

Somehow it was all my fault-home is where you hang your head.

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[quote MS has such a grip she can't accept that SO works just as well cos she knows microsoft only works with microsoft although she now knows the problem is not that other products are inferior but still getting her to change  :wall:  women.

 

Somehow it was all my fault-home is where you hang your head.

 

My dad is the same. He's a very reasonable and intelligent person, but he just cannot seem to get rid of the equation "M$/Windoze==Good"

 

:wall:

 

I think this mental 'illness' can only be cured with regular doses of Linux (or other decent OS) over the period of a couple of years...

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Guest Linux24
My dad is the same. He's a very reasonable and intelligent person, but he just cannot seem to get rid of the equation "M$/Windoze==Good"

 

:wall:

 

I think this mental 'illness' can only be cured with regular doses of Linux (or other decent OS) over the period of a couple of years...

 

I read one of the responses in this useless thread. I refuse to get sucked into this nonsense. I used to participate in Win vs. DOS debates in the early 90's. I participiated in Commodore vs. Apple debates in the '80's. In the '70's I listened to people espouse the magnficence of the Jacard Basic 4. I see the same arguments here about Linux, and in other places for Apple, and for other places about Windows, and in yet more places about Jeeps vs. Trucks or liberals vs. conservatives. Whatever. I am uninterested.

 

I tried to cite what I believe to be weaknesses in Linux' current model and that I believe should be addressed to make usage easier and more appealing. If you don't want to see it fixed because you have a personal investment in defending it as-is, then by all means, continue this fight. I won't read a word of it. About ten years ago, people were downloading some zip files, but also some arj files, and some .zoo files which were all competing compression routines. That finally was resolved to appeal to a mass market. People did not pick what was best (arj was best), they picked the format that was popular and was distributed by a company that cared about the user experience (the guys that make Winzip were it). Good luck finding a file compressed with .zoo today.

 

The issues I cited are the same sort of thing - Linux development should be working out these inconsistencies and there should be a unifying standard which all distributions will adhere to in order to maintain consistency and increase market appeal.

 

Or not, if they don't give a crap. It's their choice. Not mine. I'll just use what I got until something better made by someone who cares about people like me comes along.

 

It seems to me that a lot of people in here think that software development is about people using what already exists, when really it is about changing what exists into something different in order to meet a need - perceived or real. Questions indicate a need. Confusion indicates a need. Lack of knowledge indicates a need. All of these things can be solved with good requirements, design, development, and quality control to change the way things work to a new way. Nothing is solved by calling people who raise the issues names.

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I'll try to bring some new insight as everyone here seems to have the same thoughts, feelings, etc about your short Linux experience. I don't want to repeat what has already been said before.

 

Clearly you didn't do any research and stating false information. When I upgraded from Win ME to XP, I had to upgrade just about every single major program, as well as some hardware before I can say everything worked in it. After doing all of this, the one thing that never worked was my palm. It seems after I did my research, that the XP upgrade renders some usb devices useless. Doing upgrades instead of clean installs breaks a lot of things. This is not a Linux phenomena.

 

Don't get me wrong, I love tinkering with it, but there is no way I will deploy this crap in an office full of people. Evolution crashes on startup 33% of the time, you have to understand a command line just to upgrade your browser version, and installing patches and updates is outrageously complicated and requires too much expertise. And as a result, support staff must be paid too much money.

You say not to bash you, but saying that Linux is crap, or Konqueror is a cheap knock off of Explorer, in a Linux forum, what do you call that? You are guilty of the very thing you asked us not to do?

 

1. Downloading and installing drivers or shareware must be made consistent, simple, and must never depend on compiling or maintaining copies of source code. There should always be a user-friendly option, otherwise, it's just niche hobbyist stuff and not really a valid competitor. If you have to type "make", or even go to a command line to execute a file name or make something executable, the installation routine stinks by today's standards.

I won't say any more about it because i'll only be repeating what everyone else has said as far Linux, features, and usability are concerned. Just that you clearly didn't attempt to lean Linux. If you did, you would have known all about urpmi, rpms, and MCC that makes configuration and installing software easy and Mandrake user friendly.

 

Sure, if you want to get even easier, there is Lycoris, and Linspire. Both great easy to use distros, but it sacrifices the power of Linux in exchange for ease of use.

 

And when have you never had to lean an unfamiliar OS? I had to learn Windows, Macintosh. Dont expect to use Linux right from the start. You have to learn Linux.

 

I read one of the responses in this useless thread. I refuse to get sucked into this nonsense. I used to participate in Win vs. DOS debates in the early 90's. I participiated in Commodore vs. Apple debates in the '80's. In the '70's I listened to people espouse the magnficence of the Jacard Basic 4. I see the same arguments here about Linux, and in other places for Apple, and for other places about Windows, and in yet more places about Jeeps vs. Trucks or liberals vs. conservatives. Whatever. I am uninterested.

We agree on something here. This thread is useless started by YOU. This actually could have been a constructive thread had you not resorted to inflaming people and came in with a little more info, and a more objective view of things. But it seems like you wanted to start a Linux vs Windows war in a Linux forum. The very things you said you were not going to do.

 

Note: Actually, I would say all the posts in this thread minus yours have been very useful.

Edited by spiedra

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I would love to know what companies some of these shadow win admins work in.

 

Sounds like his boss told him to look into linux and he's now afraid he'll loose hours if he uses it in the office.

 

 

I know. My post was a obvious poke but I couldn't help it. Its fun sometimes.

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I read one of the responses in this useless thread. I refuse to get sucked into this nonsense.

Hate to be the one to tell you, but you should've expected people to respond with their opinions when you posted yours. That's how debates work. You say you read one post - obviously you didn't take the time to weed out the real answers. Many people suggested you look into Mandrake Control Center - it's a GUI interface for administration of your system. You should also check out RPM repositories to add in Mandrake Control Center so you have access t more software. You provided points, we provided counter points, and your return is "this is nonsense"? There were a lot of helpful tips in these posts, my friend.

 

Linux is a community, not a company. It doesn't work like a company. It's better than a company, IMHO, because it allows for -choice-.

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One more thing I would like to refute

n the end, I actually save money by paying Redmond's outrageous prices and putting up with a monopoly

Wrong dude, ask yourself these questions:

-How many pc's running Windows get infected by viruses every year?

-How many millions and billions of dollars do viruses cost businesses every year?

 

Now ask these same questions about Linux.

 

**Compare the number of viruses for Windows to Linux**

 

If memory serves me, there are 3 viruses, but I am not aware of a box running Linux ever getting infected. Can you say that for Windows?

 

Can you feel confident using Windows without an antivirus?

I don't have to worry about using any antivirus for Linux :cheeky:

 

t seems to me that a lot of people in here think that software development is about people using what already exists, when really it is about changing what exists into something different in order to meet a need - perceived or real. Questions indicate a need. Confusion indicates a need. Lack of knowledge indicates a need. All of these things can be solved with good requirements, design, development, and quality control to change the way things work to a new way. Nothing is solved by calling people who raise the issues names.

No one's called you any names here, but you wouldn't know that since you are not reading these posts.

 

I'll assume you won't get anything out of this since you've admitted you are not reading any of these posts. That tells me you really don't want to learn.

Edited by spiedra

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My dad is the same. He's a very reasonable and intelligent person, but he just cannot seem to get rid of the equation "M$/Windoze==Good"

 

:wall:

 

I think this mental 'illness' can only be cured with regular doses of Linux (or other decent OS) over the period of a couple of years...

Nothing is solved by calling people who raise the issues names.

 

Oh sure! Take the trollbait! Of course I did not mean it literally, why would you think I would talk about my dad like that? :angry: Okay, how about calling it a 'reality distortion field' instead? :deal:

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Sorry for this post. I should have read some other articles first. Looks like it is a common problem with Linux that kernels are released without any regard at all as to drivers that vendors are providing and whether or not the kernel will work with drivers or wipe them out.

The kernels that you get from kernel.org do not include drivers from 3rd party vendors like nvidia, you have to goto your distribution and get their latest kernel from their ftp site. Then you can compile it yourself or just install the precompiled package. Use hardware that cooperates with Linux instead of hardware that deliberately does not cooperate with Linux. Windows has a hardware compatibility list, so does Linux.

 

So the answer is "stick with what you have working and never upgrade your kernel unless you are a professional programmer and can compile it yourself" where Linux is concerned.

No the answer is to never update the kernel, this rewrites the working kernels files, rather install the latest version. This way you have two kernels to choose from when you boot up. When you know how to do this, it's childs play.

 

Meaning, I never get a security update for my OS if I want to keep using it.

I get them, it's fast with broadband, easy, and darn near fool proof when you know how to use the tools that your distro, in this case mandrake provides. I do however wait about 36 hours after a security, bug fix, normal update has been released, this way if there is a problem, I'll hear about it here, or somewhere on the internet.

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I would love to know what companies some of these shadow win admins work in.

 

Sounds like his boss told him to look into linux and he's now afraid he'll loose hours if he uses it in the office.

 

I know. My post was a obvious poke but I couldn't help it. Its fun sometimes.

 

No kidding, at the other day, I knew one of the Windows die-hard admins (from a friend of LUG) was told by the boss to look at Linux for its cost cutting possibilities, he's reluctant to do so but has to face the reality of a competing, cheaper (and free in speech) operating system.

 

For the record, Microsoft WILL break the backward compatibility religion:

 

Windows XP SP2 is only a start.

VB.NET isn't exactly compatible with VB6.

And we all know Windows Longhorn will rip things apart:

Just read Joel Spolsky's article on Win32 API, Joel is btw a former Microsoft employee.

 

No matter how you are having adjustment problem with Linux, it is the way to go for the future of IT industry. Darkelve posted another article by the Kernel 2.6's maintainer Andrew Morton, read it, and you will understand why Linux is so successful because it balances customer demand with good engineering, not just swing to a single side.

 

As for usablity goes, GNOME's HIG is getting there, and I believe KDE has been paying attention to that too. A little more research really doesn't hurt.

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I would still be interested in knowing exactly what sort of IT job the OP holds. He sure does not sound like someone with any admin experience on any OS

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