gmac Posted February 16, 2004 Report Share Posted February 16, 2004 http://www.guardian.co.uk/microsoft/Story/...1144755,00.html If european court orders microsoft to unbundle its browser software life could get interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkelve Posted February 16, 2004 Report Share Posted February 16, 2004 (edited) I doubt the commission will have that much gut. If they will it will pleasantly surprise me, but I expect a still rather 'mild' punishment, although harsher than the settlement in the US. Probably Windows Media Player will have to be unbundled in one way or another and they face some fines. I agree, unbundling the browser is really what they *SHOULD* be told to do, but it is not going to happen. In fact, I think the only place where that decision could have fallen and have any effect was in the US antitrust case. Remember, this is politics and I doubt they will go to extremes with this one. But let's all hope something good will come from this. Edited February 16, 2004 by Darkelve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzylizard Posted February 16, 2004 Report Share Posted February 16, 2004 Maybe I missed something, but isn't that article about Opera going public? I missed the part about the European commission. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmac Posted February 17, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2004 http://www.guardian.co.uk/microsoft/Story/...1132834,00.html Microsofts business activities have been under investigation by the European commission for the last four years-for designing their products deliberately so they don't work with competitors and more recently that bundling their media player is deliberately designed to stop competition. A decision is due in March. The whole issue is a bit more complex than just microsoft. In the past the commission has not been averse to smacking down major european companies, most notably Volkswagon peugeot//citroen and renault to the major benefit of UK consumers where we have seen car prices drop dramatically-mainly because they declared it illegal for manufacturers to only sell through their own dealers. In real terms car prices have dropped considerably. There have also been several cases recently where electrical manufacturers have been fined for price fixing by refusing to supply discounters. They also fined the retailers involved. Companies have tried to stop retailers buying branded goods, such as designer fashion and perfume, outside the EEC and importing them for sale The jean manufactures lost because they had their iwn discount stores selling their goods cheaply, the perfumiers did not as exclusivity was seen as a main factor in what they were selling and buying expensive perfume off the shelf next to the beans the EEC agreed was detrimental to the business as exclusivity was a main value in the product that the perfumiers themselves had not undermined. The companies affected by microsoft are european and the microsoft approach of saying this has gone through the US courts and why are we being bothered by this has, hopefully, not won them any friends. Politics does come in to it in that being told what to do by america will antagonise every european government- except ours apparently. More to the point not to take action against microsoft would be inconsistent with the way they have treated similar issues in other industries. If microsoft lose and refuse to follow commission rules things could get quite entertaining. Entertaining in the sense that the EEC cannot afford to have a company like microsoft ignoring it. There are already issues with the microsoft licence in that a product bought in the UK is governed by US licensing laws. Just think of the reaction if it was tried the other way. We just put up with it. Who knows in the near future we may be able to buy chinese made computers with linux installed alongside microsoft installed ones in PC world. Eorpoe wants to tade with China as much as the US does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Kenneth Posted February 20, 2004 Report Share Posted February 20, 2004 Microsofts business activities have been under investigation by the European commission for the last four years-for designing their products deliberately so they don't work with competitors... *cough* Windows bootloader *cough* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkelve Posted February 20, 2004 Report Share Posted February 20, 2004 Microsofts business activities have been under investigation by the European commission for the last four years-for designing their products deliberately so they don't work with competitors... *cough* Windows bootloader *cough* It's funny we can all come up with examples this quick, yet in court it seems they barely consider these things... crazy world I guess Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gowator Posted February 20, 2004 Report Share Posted February 20, 2004 How about an American comment??? How would you feel if you had a item, only made in the UK that was more or less compulsary to modern living that you were forced to agree to a UK license which is actually illegal in the US ?? More to the point, how would you feel if your court system was humming and hoing about this while the company continued!!!! Lets say I dunno a telephone (lets say Finland then) !!! Imagine if all Nokia's came with a restrictive license that was illegal in the US and nokai were in the US courts suing customers for downloading a logo. At the same time Nokia has got practically every mainstream cell phone distributer locked in, they sell with the license or not at all. In other words motrola etc. don't exist, only nokia and nokia are restricting who they supply to and refusing to suply to resellers who don't play their game.... Not only that but nokia have also subverted the cell operaters so that if you do get a motorla etc. your connections will be screwed about becuase they built a little ID device into their phones without which your connection gets severed every 3 minutes or something. This is actually very close to MS Europe. The EULA is not enforcable in at least 3 EU countries I know of.... MS have hacked and disabled peoples computers which were bought not leased (including but not limited to XBOX's) and actively prevent other manufacturers from using the computer as they wish. What MS is doing is SO ILLEGAL its amazing.... XBOX live is actively disabling boxes converted to linux!!! That's is a compulsary jail sentence in Germany and criminal damage in the UK. The MSN license is completely illegal - MS cannot make a back claim legally if the decide to retrospectively charge for hotmail and messenger. BUT they don't care becuase illegal or not people will have to pay becuase they rely on it!!! But the European courts are told not to upset America becuase its a valuable trading partner - which is why though the evidence is overwhelming non of this is actually brought up in court. The UK is so far up America's backside on this you mightest well just add another star! Not since Ronnie and Maggie have we bent over so far ..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghil Vertefeuille Posted February 20, 2004 Report Share Posted February 20, 2004 If MS doesn't listen to the EEC, probably that MS will not be able to get their product on the european market again, wich would be the death of a big market...and the renewal of alternatives in europe, Like Linux or Mac... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkelve Posted February 20, 2004 Report Share Posted February 20, 2004 How about an American comment??? Gowator, go easy on the exclamation marks ;) (no offense meant, of course) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmpatrick Posted February 20, 2004 Report Share Posted February 20, 2004 Those kinds of choice of law provisions are not all that unusual. I can't remember what the windows software was but it designated the laws of the Republic of Ireland as controling. All international agreements that I've come across have some type of choice of law provisions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmac Posted February 20, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2004 http://www.guardian.co.uk/microsoft/Story/...1150951,00.html "Those kinds of choice of law provisions are not all that unusual" True but its the principle involved. Do you think the US would put up with Volkswagon insisting the guarantees and liability were only under German law and American law would not apply. By the way Volkswagon is the only car dealer in town. Actually in the US is the same situation in that you can't buy a new computer without windows? I can't buy a computer without windows installed (O.K I can get them made up) but if I have the installation cd from say my laptop that fails and I have to buy a new one and don't want XP. Can I get one without the windows operating system? Not easily in a shop like pC world. Nor can I reject the licence and ask the shop to remove it they won't do it. Quote from PC world salesman. "Its illegal to buy a computer without an operating system. Computers have come down a lot in price, were it not for windows they would be even cheaper. I have just found out I can't get broadband without upgrading from windows 98 to windows 98 second edition as a minimum. At the moment I can't afford a second box to really experiment with linux but evry day linux looks more and more attractive. "Not since Ronnie and Maggie have we bent over so far ....." I am no fan of Maggie but I doubt she would have lied to parliament the way Blair has. he either lied or he's an idiot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ixthusdan Posted February 20, 2004 Report Share Posted February 20, 2004 American comments I do not know any American business people who do not understand that business practices are governed by local law and local practice. In the US, the Federal government dictates the practice of interstate commerce. Commerce within the state is dictated by state law. While the differences can be minor, there are nevertheless differences in how one conducts business in a particular state. Microsoft's ploy to suggest that the US court system is some kind of "international" body is ludicrous. There is no intention in the constitution of the US that suggests the US court and legal system is for anyone other than those who stand within the borders of the US and its territories. Nor would I, as a conservative, ever presume that decisions here are somehow decisions elsewhere in the world. If microsoft wishes to do business in 100 different nations, then they need to understand 100 different sets of law. In the US, they must understand not only federal regulation, but the laws in each of the fifty states. Too burdensome? Perhaps, but then they can choose to not do business in ant state or any country that they want! It is not now, nor has it ever been illegal in the US to sell a computer without an operating system. I can't imagine why anyone would do such a thing, but that's up to the individual nations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmac Posted February 20, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2004 "It is not now, nor has it ever been illegal in the US to sell a computer without an operating system. I can't imagine why anyone would do such a thing, but that's up to the individual nations." It isn't here either but windows is so endemic that in practice it is hard to get an ordinary desktop without windows. Indeed a lot if the staff in places like pc world are completely unaware that there is anything else to the extent some think you don't get a computer without windows, hence the source of that comment. In any case they won't supply a computer with no operating system you have to get them built or hunt the internet.. "Microsoft's ploy to suggest that the US court system is some kind of "international" body is ludicrous." Couldn't agree more but they do. "Every copy of Microsoft Windows, every copy of MS Office World and every Dell computer invoice carry demands, imposed on Microsoft and Dell by the US government, that the UK user or UK purchaser observes US criminal law (The US Export Control Act) here in the UK. Users are prohibited from taking their copies of the above to various countries disapproved of by the US and in some cases from taking software out of the UK." http://www.guardian.co.uk/microsoft/Story/...1001267,00.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ixthusdan Posted February 21, 2004 Report Share Posted February 21, 2004 Well, as I have said, There is no way US law should apply anywhere outside. If your government is enforcing a US law, then perhaps some sort of diplomatic trade agreement is at work! This is, after all, a valid function of government between nations. If you are expected to obey US law, your own politicians would be to blame!! Really, how on earth is Dell going to enforce a US law on a citizen of another country? I think it's smoke and mirrors. They say it, but can they do it? Not without your own government cooperating! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linux_learner Posted February 21, 2004 Report Share Posted February 21, 2004 i am in the U.S. and i despise M$ for alot of the reasons already mentioned. M$ deprives one of choice. M$ likes ignorant customers, and will do anything to keep customers ignorant. other than their ethics (which recently consists of alot of my reasons), i have other reasons for disliking M$ products. mainly, stability and security (or lack there of). when i beta tested XP, i was impressed with it. perhaps i was impressed because i had just come from ME (it cant possibly get worse than ME). when sp1 hit, and i found that M$ had squelched the nessesary info for people to at least temporarily secure their systems, and the extent and how many flaws their were, i became enraged. i wrote M$ an email right then, and informed them i'd never buy another M$ product again. i have since broken my contract with MSN, and i no longer use M$ windows or windows products. i also actively promote linux (even at work :D ) and "inform" people about the security vulnerabilities of windows. (since i work for comcast, and occasionally set up, or have questions regarding high speed internet, i do get to tell customers all kinds of things ) muhahahaha. sometimes i love my job. i have even talked about why i dislike windows to a guy in washington state, who works directly for M$ as a supervisor in the tech department. (oh yeah) i, as a U.S. citizen, whole heartedly support the unbundeling of windows. i think the U.S. courts whimped out. i can only hope the E.U courts dont. but then, i find it sad that the U.S. cant regulate a company with in its own borders and has to rely on other governments to regulate what goes on in our borders. i guess it goes to show how weak we have become. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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