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TO ALL MDK 10 USERS.

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Quote MandrakeSoft "new release roadmap":

http://www.mandrakelinux.com/en/pr-releaseprocess.php3

 

 

"The new release road map:

 

The spirit of the new development road map is to keep providing a release similar to what was released in the past, which will now be called "Mandrake Linux Community." This is the regular Mandrake Linux distribution, based on Cooker, which goes through the traditional QA process. But from now on, a second 'rock-solid' version titled "Mandrake Linux Official" will be released two or three months after Mandrake Linux Community. This new version will include all Erratas applied to the initial release, and as a result will be particularly solid and problem-free. The Community release will be ideal for those who want the 'latest and greatest' features as soon as available, while the second release will be perfect for those who prefer to wait and avoid any potential glitches.

 

What follows is the development process for our next major release, Mandrake Linux 10.0:

 

1) After the traditional debugging of several Beta and Release Candidates, the final version of "Mandrake Linux 10.0 Community" will be released in February/March. This version will be available for download and as a DVD-set through e-Commerce.

 

2) Then a Mandrake Linux 10.0 Stable branch will be opened, based on Mandrake Linux 10.0 Community. Security updates and bug fixes will be applied to this tree and will be publicly available in real time.

 

3) Two or three months later, in April/May, "Mandrake Linux 10.0 Official" will be created from the Mandrake 10.0 Stable branch. It will then be packaged for several products such as the Mandrake Linux PowerPack. Mandrake 10.0 Official ISO images will also be available for all contributors and Club Members; then, after a short delay, Mandrake Linux 10.0 Official Download Edition will be made available on public FTP mirrors."

 

Thanks anon, for the clarification.

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Guest anon
Thanks anon, for the clarification.

Well you clarified it better for me anna !

BTW, Glad to see you sticking around................. :)

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As stated, CE is a cooker snapshot (of an updated/bugfixed rc1). Now, cooker (CE/rc2) is frozen except for updates/bug fixes til the Final is released. Guess what? Cooker will then be open again and guess what we'll have? A lot of updates for 10 Final. Hello? With a transparent/community driven/cutting edge distro like mandrake the updates will always be there waiting on ya. If we have a problem with that there're a lot of other distros out there that simply don't have a lot of updates becasue they simply don't make anything other than security updates available and reserve the other stuff for their next release. We can go that route if we so choose but this devel of distro is not cutting edge. Take your pick. :D

 

[EDIT] yeah, what she said :thumbs:

Edited by bvc

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I'm so confused, surely Mandrake 10 CE is a final release (although not the final release of Mandrake 10.0). Otherwise why would they be selling it and have an errata page surely they don't normally have these for RCs do they?

 

I thought from their press releases that it was something like debian, where cooker is unstable, CE is testing and Final is stable. This made a lot of sense to me. The way I saw it is that we would get a community release that would be equivilant to the normal release and then the extra bug fixes would be applied to the 'final' release that would be sold in boxed sets etc. This seems to make sense, we would get our normal cutting edge mandrake release, which is probably not what boxed sets need, they need really stable solid releases.

 

If what the initial post says is correct that this is supposed to just be another RC, then that seems to me a very bad move on Mandrake's part for several reasons:

 

1) It annoys people like me who obviously didn't understand and expected something which was less buggy, this means that I am very unlikely to spend any money on mandrake in the near future as I'm so annoyed and feel like I've been tricked into beta testing.

 

2) It will get reviewed as a mandrake release (as Mandrake have been talking about is as a release, even if not the final one). These reviews will inevitably reflect the buggy nature of CE as it now stands, which will further damage Mandrake's reputation (which rightly or wrongly is seen as being a very buggy distro)

 

I feel like I should add a little disclaimer here that I really like mandrake and really I want them to do well, but somehow they always seem to make things more difficult for themselves!

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While you guys are ALL right, I think Thelorax makes very good points.

 

It's probably 'crystal' clear to most persons who are familiar with Linux or frequent this board a lot, but for persons fresh&new to Linux, this can lead to a lot on unjustified frusration, just because they don't grasp the concept. This is exactly the feeling I have about this.

 

In my humble opinion, this could all have been cleared up by choosing a naming convention that made more sense about the status of this release, e.g. Mandrake 10.0 Unstable, Mandrake 10.0 Unofficial, Mandrake 10.0 bleeding edge, whatever...

 

But naming it 'Community' in the hope to have more downloaders and bug testers is something that I think could easily backfire. A more 'intelligent' way to do this, is e.g. referring to the 'plea to save Mandrake by buying' (the 'please give us your money'-stuff of last year) and saying something like:

 

Last year, we called upon the community for a financial contribution to save Mandrake. Now, a year later, we finally got out of 'Chapter 11'. We are calling on you again, but this time not for money. No, instead we would ask you to download the latest, bleeding-edge release of Mandrake: Mandrake 10.0 -something- . This is to enable us to get all of the most annoying bugs fixed for Mandrake 10.0 official. Testers can use the official Mandrake Bugzilla: (adress here).

 

Now wouldn't that have had a similar effect (maybe even better), without all the confusion?

 

Of course it's all easy for me to say... but still...

 

Darkelve

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thelorax:

I gotta second everything you say, or third it now after darkelve!!

 

Mandrake seem to be in the same 'have your cake and eat it' they always seem to get into. If they are selling it then its fraud, pure and simple. They have NOT made it clear that this is a buggy product which is not a final release.

 

The sad thing is it probably hasnt occured to them! For $59.99

What is 10.0 Community?

 

- A mostly automated installation procedure

- On the desktop: "Mandrakegalaxy" II look & feel and MagicDev!

- Improved configuration, extended hardware support

- Simplified System Maintenance

- All the best Office & Internet applications

- Multimedia and Games

- Servers, Internet and Intranet services

- Easy Printing with CUPS

- Top-level Security

- Everything for Development

- Available in more than 60 languages

 

Im sorry but $60 isn't duplication costs! Not for a single DVD which costs a few CENTS.

 

 

Look the rest of you....

If you go to the site and ORDER the latest version of Mandrake then this is what you get. Noone explains ANYTHING about it being an extended RC release!

 

Whilst we are at it. What about the CD4 ....

Only available to club members ...

In other words they are making it crippleware until the patches make the mirrors.

 

Again they can if they like BUT thats just going to give MORE bad feeling about it!

 

Like darkeleve and thelroax I think the IDEA of the Debian style thing is FINE. I like the SID idea AND if they wanna SELL the stabel version fine...

 

BUT selling a TEST version is CRAP .... its something MS would do!

 

Most of ALL it ANNOYS people. One thing Mandrake can't understand about cusomer service is annoying your cusomers is not a great way to get brand loyalty. Even when you love the product!!!

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OK,

 

Here are my two cents:

 

1. Earlier a final release was not enough tested. Mainly because there are not enough people around who want to put time in somehting they will not be using afterwards.

 

2. Mandrake wanted to improve the quality of their product.

 

Now IMHO, 10.0 CE is as final as 9.2 was. Simply because of the freezing of the versions of the packages in it. In a release candidate one can have quite some surprises such as XFree86 version 4.4 not being supported further, but a return to version 4.3. This is not something that will be happening to a CE release.

So I think this discussion that has been going on about whether 10.0 CE is a RC or a final is wrong. There is now an additional type of release. Earlier there were Betas, RCs and Final. Now there are Betas, RCs, CEs and Officials.

People that did not want to do testing on Betas and RCs because lack of time, but want the new Mandy from the moment that it is frozen (and are prepared to have to find some workarounds for some reamining problems), take the CE version. That's what has always existed.

However the new thing is (and that did not exist before), is that people that do not want to risk any problem at all and are prepared to wait for the new goodies, will have the opportunity now to buy a version with bug fixes included (what is now called the Official). This will also be sold in the boxed format.

I think this is a very good development for the Linux community. A lot of people (maybe even most people) are not prepared for bleeding edge with all the problems that come with it. Up till now those people just waited, but had to buy a CD that contained an enormous lot of bugs and had to download hundreds of MBs of updates. Now the updates will be way less. This will help again to reach the less computer savy, reach a public with less "nerdness".

 

I think this is another good step forward. This is also how I understood the communications from Mandrake from the start, so I so not really get what is so confusing and why people are having such a negative attitude again. Mandrake added something, they did not take anything away.

 

Ciao,

 

Sitor

Edited by sitor

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sitor said exactly what I wanted to say but a much better way.

If 10.0 CE is a RC then 8.2...9.2 were RC too.

I've not tested 10.0 enough but it seems to me that 10.0 CE is the same quality (or lack of quality for some opinions) as 8.2...9.2 final.

And it must stay that way. Else the Mandrake guys are going to think "oh well it's a CE, let it go even if it's not tested enough" like they can do with a RC.

If they start that way, they will soon have to invent an other name between the CE and the Official as nobody is going to run the CE anymore.

A bug in a RC is not a quality defect. That's normal. A bug in a CE IS a quality defect. That's the big difference IMHO.

So selling CE must keeps the pressure on them, it must be a version that is finished as far as they can test it, but that may have some errata and downloads due to specific hardware they couldn't test.

Those who buy the CE know what they are doing. If they don't have broadband connection, better keep away from it.

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The very fact that this debate is possible means that there is a problem.

 

Some people will buy Mdk CE believing it to be something it is not - beacause Mandrake are not communicating clearly.

 

Whether it's rc or final or something new is not really the issue IMHO - the fact that it isn't clear is the problem - meaning that some people will buy something or download and install on their computer something that isn't what they think it is.

 

I understand the conept of having a CE as a "final" with another official "final" release later - it does make sense. The problem is that it's clearly an attempt to get people to install and test something they would not otherwise install and test.

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The very fact that this debate is possible means that there is a problem.

 

Some people will buy Mdk CE believing it to be something it is not - beacause Mandrake are not communicating clearly.

 

Whether it's rc or final or something new is not really the issue IMHO - the fact that it isn't clear is the problem - meaning that some people will buy something or download and install on their computer something that isn't what they think it is.

 

I understand the conept of having a CE as a "final" with another official "final" release later - it does make sense.  The problem is that it's clearly an attempt to get people to install and test something they would not otherwise install and test.

Exactly.....

I appreciate the move towards a STABLE release and also that the interim release might be a bit different in terms of there presently isn't a STABLE release only patched 9.2,

 

However, the problem is COMMUNICATION as phunni points out.

 

Mandrake are a commercial company and therefore what the customers THINK or PERCEIVE is important.

 

Mandrake has ALWAYS been a great distro... erm except perhaps 7.1 was it ??

 

Its fine for those of us 'in the know' - what about those BUYING it from the website etc.

Its not made crystal clear that this is NOT the FINAL version... and it should be.

(don't say its all there if you look hard enough, its not on the add to shopping basket page)...

 

The problem is that those who do buy it thinking its an OFFICIAL release will be dissapointed and many will feel cheated!

The tough - you shoulda read the small print will not make them any less disgruntled!!!

 

Mandrake is partly trying to pull a fast one....

They are doing something GOOD.... that is creating the STABLE....

but they are trying to do this WITHOUT affecting sales OR extra work etc.

 

They have a stable version - (well nearly) its 9.2 WITH patches applied

but they would need a bit of work to get it on the market and they would loose all the effort they put into the hype surrounding 10.0

 

Well tough... they will just have to do some extra work and get this sellable ....thats all part and parcel of being a commerical release. I know they are cash strapped and all but alienating customers now is hardly a good move ...

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The problem is that it's clearly an attempt to get people to install and test something they would not otherwise install and test.

I didn't understand it that way but well.

 

Thinking about it while eating, here how I see it now:

If it's a RC and it has bug then

it's stupid to whine or change distro because of that: that's what a RC is made for: detect bug

else, it's a CE and it has a bug then

if that bug is due to a specific hardware or fancy config then

forgive them, they are not Microsoft and can't test all the hardware at home

else it's has a bug that could well be detected at home then

you can whine or change distro because of that

 

For example:

- with the 10.0, I had some trouble with my USB ADSL modem (I did an upgrade). I can understand that they don't have this kind of modem at home and more, the driver for the 2.6 kernel was finished just for the CE and was not ready for the RC.

I can understand even if it was annoying and I had to spend a couple of hours to make it work.

- the little bug on RPMDrake: the mouse that always display an hourglass (a clock)

That's not annoying but hey they didn't run RPMDrake at home or what ? I don't like that. They could perfectly have avoided this kind of thing.

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I have to add that a I have seen a LOT of persons on this board who are actually very happy with Mandrake 10.0 Community. And that's good, obviously Mandrake have done really great work on 10.0. But do they know/understand there's a 'Stable/Official' version coming out or understand the difference?

 

I believe the intentions of Mandrake are very good, but in my opinion they fail to make it crystal clear to everyone (esp. new users) what this version is all about.

 

Myself, and probably Gowator too, are still having in our minds the 9.2 product page, where they explain Mandrake can run Windows applications through VmWare (or crossover, but I think it was VMware) and put a picture next to it showing Mandrake running Windows in VMWare. A user could be easily fooled into believing a VMWare version was *included* with the Powerpack. Just as I assumed e.g. Win4Lin and a few other commercial packages (like Hancom Office) were included, but they were only demos!

 

The point is this kind of confusion has to be avoided at all times. If it's not, then there's something very wrong in their PR department. If they did this 'misinformation' deliberately to make them or their product look better, that is quite bad. I don't believe that, but in this case there is still something wrong.

 

For example, I challenge everyone to go to the Xandros Product page and find similar statements/situations. They state *exactly* what they are selling and how it benefits. There's no confusion possible. Compared to the Mandrake situation... well I'm just trying to make a point here.

 

Thumbs up to Mandrake for making a superb release.

Thumbs (kind of) down for their confusing communication.

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Exactly Darkelve,

I remember quite a few misleading statements on the box!

'Plays all your DVD's' etc. ...

OK so IF you happen to be a seasoned Mandrake user you know to download libdvdcss from PLF ....

 

What Mandrake are commonly missing (and some of the regulars here) is the fact that not everyone even has internet, let alone years of experience on this board.

 

A noobie coming to Mandy will see it very differently ... the little secrets like URPMI etc :D

 

Course, we keep telling people ... but what of those that dont find this board :D

 

As you point out Xandros wouldn't let this sort of confusion happen.

 

IMHO by selling the CE they are implying its a commerical product.....

If they were asking $5 to cover postage and duplicaiton thats different to $60 !!

 

If you look at all the last releases they are all quirky in one way or another. The no source in 9.2 - and quiet withdrawal of starOffice from the Powerpack etc., the missing USB dongle support in Mandrake Move DL edition....

 

IMHO these are all backdoorr attmepts to get people to join the club /pay for the official version.

 

The problem with that is THEY haven't decided themselves.

The problem is that it's clearly an attempt to get people to install and test something they would not otherwise install and test.

 

Again I agree, tricking your coustomers isn't a good start to a long and happy relationship! But the bit that sucks the most is the fact they are CHARGING for it too. $60 - to be tricked into testing ... then be offered a 'competitive upgrade' of $60 no doubt when the official version is out.

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I would like to make a suggestion reg. the discussion here.

 

Though it's hard I've learned the last year to make a distinction between the distribution Mandrake Linux and the company MandrakeSoft.

 

(I won't comment the company here. I am not a paying customer nor do I own shares)

 

I am very happy with 10.0 - and appreciate the effort of the many contributors (who don't get paid by MandrakeSoft) and the stuff and packagers. It's the first big distribution with the new kernel - with all problems involved. So, for a lot of people 10.0 CE won't work, and it's better to wait a few weeks.

 

For the MUB users, members and visitors it is important that they'll find here in very clear words what 10.0 Community Edition actually is, what they can expect.

 

For me, personally I'd call it: cooker-stable. Why? That's the name of the official ftp tree for CE.

As bvc and anon said: a cooker snapshot.

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I disagree with calling 10CE anything else than a final.

 

Need more time to write a proper argument but I can only at this point say that I am very very PISSED OFF at all these comments that keep stating that is is not the final followed by the comment that people better wait for the Official.

 

If you all want Mandrake ( -Linux, and -Soft, meaning all those developers out of a job) to die within a year, you're going the right way about it...

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