zero0w Posted August 5, 2004 Report Share Posted August 5, 2004 The recent OSS and Linux commentary is getting more and more interesting. I am bemused to read these two blog items in the same Oreillynet.com network. Take a look, they are interesting read (don't read the second before the first or you'll miss the fun =P ): http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/wlg/5299 http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/wlg/5368 Sometimes, you got to respond as if they were not a real threat. Sounds convincing, isn't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arctic Posted August 5, 2004 Report Share Posted August 5, 2004 (edited) i already read the first story about linux by preston gralla (who still earns his money writing books for windows), so this second story is only halfway better. if ihe writes The ready availability of applications makes Windows superior as well. Go into your local computer store, or visit an online retailer. How much software do you see being sold for Windows? How much for Linux? An operating system is only as good as the software that runs on top of it. then he simply hasn't understood that a linux-system usually has all the stuff you need included in the os cds. so why buy software, if you get it with your distro or free via download. in one respect, i must admit that he is right. And most people wouldn't even be able to install a new operating system, even if they did want to switch. i have seen many people who are helpless when installing anything. even when they have to install a windows-app that only has one button to click on, they don't know what to do. so how should these people manage to insert a cd, boot it and install an os? Edited August 5, 2004 by arctic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkelve Posted August 5, 2004 Report Share Posted August 5, 2004 (edited) First, consider the entire universe of computer users. Most don't want to have to be bothered with installing a new operating system and all the problems that causes. They already have an operating system on their PCs - Windows - and they'd have to have an extremely compelling reason to go through the pain of installing a new one. Inertia... the worst enemy of Linux. The guy's got a point here, but you can hardly blame that on the Linux process itself! I wonder if Linux came pre-installed, that analogy would be applicable in reverse? ;) Besides, if he was fair, he would have compared the difficulty and time needed to install Windoze and Linux on comparable systems. Linux, as I previously outlined, doesn't give them that compelling reason. The applications written for Linux don't give them that compelling reason, either. And most people wouldn't even be able to install a new operating system, even if they did want to switch. I wouldn't say a ton of perfectly usable *free* software isn't a compelling reason The ready availability of applications makes Windows superior as well. Go into your local computer store, or visit an online retailer. How much software do you see being sold for Windows? How much for Linux? An operating system is only as good as the software that runs on top of it. There's so little easily available software (the key here is "easily") for Linux that it doesn't measure up to Windows. You buy it. We download it from the web. We use whatever program we want. You have to use what M$ dictates. So you must be the smart guy here... As for downloadable software, with Windows, when you download a piece of software, installation is generally straightforward. With Linux, you might be stuck with having to compile the code. Very few computer users are willing to do that. You might be stuck with it, but that is *very* rare. Most popular aps come as rpm's, deb's and whatnot. Those aren't difficult to install at all. C&R (Click&Run - love it or hate it) is actually an *easier* way to install things than windoze... The upshot? For the desktop, Windows is here to stay. Servers are another matter, and there are certainly compelling reasons for using Linux there. But on the desktop, Windows will continue to rule, warts and all. Maybe. Who knows? I think you're underestimating things a bit though. Maybe it is time to get out of that reality distortion field, because all of those arguments... I think they're pretty weak. The trouble when you go OSS bashing is, there will almost always be some people looking for ways to fix it. OSS people are not stupid and are able to distinguish the real problems from the perceived ones. But as for these argument, nothing even has to be fixed... well except for the Linux pre-installed computer systems that is. Edited August 5, 2004 by Darkelve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gowator Posted August 5, 2004 Report Share Posted August 5, 2004 The funny thing is you *think* he's being deliberately biased but he is just missing the point when you analyse his critique. As I said last time here's a guy who is proably against linux on the principle his kid showed it to him and he can't have any respect for his kid.. (darkelve fast show on its way...) he seems to understand so little that he's missed the relevant reasons and fallen for FUD.. The fact you cant buy a linux media player or CD ripper and WalMart is hardly relevant... in fact Microtel SYSWM7003 PC With 1.6 GHz Duron $278.00 with Lindows comes with C&R with hundreds of applications literally a click away (as pointed out earlier) and Debian GNU/Linux provides more than a pure OS: it comes with more than 8710 packages, precompiled software bundled up in a nice format for easy installation on your machine. available from APT-GET if C&R isnt enough! DOH... Windows product linux product 265.74 acrobat pers FREE 178.64 pcanywhere not needed 358.13 office std FREE openoffice 447.24 office pro 79.95 staroffice 4607.03 ms sql server FREE mysql 606.76 photoshop ** So a quick shopping list.... OK so GIMP isnt photoshop and if thats your job then ... but the rest is as good or better ... The funny thing is he completely misses the one point he could have scored... walk into walmart and buy linux compatible hardware! (i.e. My whats wrong in Linux thread) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero0w Posted August 5, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 5, 2004 More likely, it is both bias and missing the point. I believe when you generate enough response/feedback from the Windows people, it just means there is something happening - rather than a non-issue as they claimed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkelve Posted August 5, 2004 Report Share Posted August 5, 2004 (edited) More likely, it is both bias and missing the point. I believe when you generate enough response/feedback from the Windows people, it just means there is something happening - rather than a non-issue as they claimed. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> lol yeah, a few years ago they were still saying "Linux? what Linux?" Edited August 5, 2004 by Darkelve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arctic Posted August 5, 2004 Report Share Posted August 5, 2004 here a nice little article from macminute.com. i think this is proof enough, that linux is NOT an inferior desktop system. (okay, my box is also enough proof ;) ) Linux surpasses Mac as No. 2 desktop OSAugust 4, 2004 - 18:41 EDT HP announced yesterday that it is now shipping its first notebook, the Compaq nx5000, to come with the Linux operating system preinstalled. "This is the year that Linux overtakes the Mac on the desktop, and maybe my laptop will help accelerate that," Martin Fink, HP's vice president of Linux, said at the LinuxWorld Conference & Expo during a keynote speech. However, industry research firm IDC said it believes that this has already happened. "Linux captured the No. 2 spot as desktop operating system in 2003," said IDC analyst Dan Kusnetzky. By 2007, IDC estimates that Linux will have 6 percent of the desktop market in terms of units. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkelve Posted August 5, 2004 Report Share Posted August 5, 2004 (edited) As much as I *want* to believe that... where's the proof? I think for Software Freedom Day, it would be an awesome thing if we could all "out" ourselves for being Linux users somehow... so we will at least have a better idea of how many there are. Linuxcounter.org is nice, but I think it really takes a worldwide event to be able to reach and convince enough Linux users. Edited August 5, 2004 by Darkelve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gowator Posted August 5, 2004 Report Share Posted August 5, 2004 caveat emptor arctic... If market share was proof of 'superiority' then WinBlows would be the worlds best OS .. Comparing desktop installs of a FREE/FREE OS with a EXPENSIVE/CLOSED OS is frought with complications anyway... so its great to see linux being more used but it has been a superior OS from the beginning in terms of what an OS actually is (technically: security, networking, stability) and certainly its become superior in usability more recently... (looking at what comes with windows!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nocturnes Posted August 5, 2004 Report Share Posted August 5, 2004 And most people wouldn't even be able to install a new operating system, even if they did want to switch I guess this guy has never had to do the dreaded re-install of Windows to fix something. Most people have, and regularly at that. In fact I understand it is a favourite solution of MS themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arctic Posted August 5, 2004 Report Share Posted August 5, 2004 (edited) If market share was proof of 'superiority' then WinBlows would be the worlds best OS. errrm... i think i did not express in my previous post what i meant. so here is the second try: everybody was blaming that linux would not be ready for the desktop. at the same time, everybody said, that mac is the "most beautiful, most intuitive, most whaddoiknow" thing you can imagine as a desktop, although windows has the biggest marketshare. so... if it is true that linux-destops overtook macintosh in numbers, then this means that the system MUST be ready for the desktop, as mac is regarded as "ready for the desktop" (i won't discuss now, which os is better (it is obvious imho :) )). if linux has a market share of, let say 5% then the simple fact that 5% use this system every day for every task is enough proof that distributors like mandrake are on the right track. and if you keep in mind that the linux-desktop numbers began to increase a lot during the last three years, then we might find computers offered with linux or windows in shops in large scale in maybe two to four years. and then it will drastically increase the number of linux desktops, i guess. Edited August 5, 2004 by arctic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkelve Posted August 5, 2004 Report Share Posted August 5, 2004 (darkelve fast show on its way...) Thanks! looking forward to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pzatch Posted August 6, 2004 Report Share Posted August 6, 2004 For proof of more linux users out there I just look at this sites daily stats. How much has it grown in 2 years? its gone from what 10 to 15 user online a day to what 250? That can't mean more questions from the same people. It has to mean more people to ask questions. I can't see Mandrake becoming the only distro people are useing or asking questions about either. The others probably have the same rate of increase. Some of that is due to the increasing quality of this board and the fact that its finally getting the search engine attention it deserves. That is in large part due to the and the great community that has stayed on and helped out. (obvious kiss up here) People who overhear me mention it ( yes I do leave the basement though not in the sun light) no longer ask me what it is but how it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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