M$ trashes Xbox Linux through unauthorized update

[Guest JaseP]

See the article here:

 

http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/developer...39116400,00.htm

 

It appears that as long as your EcchsBox is connected to the web somehow, that M$ will automatically update the OS on the Ecchsbox to not only remove the patch that they devised to prevent another OS from booting, but to also remove any files put there by a Linux installation.

[jlc]

Well it is M$, there's problably a license certificate in the box that says you can't run anything but OUR stuff on it. "That's the uneducated lawyer mumbo jumbo" :wink:

[mtweidmann]

Hardly a big surprise when you think about it. What I found more interesting is that according to one report it may break German law. The update deleted some files created while running Linux which could be seen as remote deletion by Microsot. Something your not allowed to do without permission of the owner, so it hinges on whether or not by installing the update you give MS permission or not.

[liquidzoo]

There's probably something in the EULA of the update that gives M$ the right to do something like this. It is completely insane, though. They put people in jail for even accessing another system remotely, now M$ is going to do just that, plus delete things from the Xbox hdd? Does anyone else see any irony in this?

 

It would be interesting to see if someone who has an Xbox could attempt this download and see if there is a License Agreement of some sort accompanying it. I would definitely be interested in seeing what it had to say about the remote access, if anything. If it doesn't say anything then I smell a lawsuit or a couple hundred.

[jlc]

There's probably something in the EULA of the update that gives M$ the right to do something like this.  It is completely insane, though.  They put people in jail for even accessing another system remotely, now M$ is going to do just that, plus delete things from the Xbox hdd?  Does anyone else see any irony in this?

 

It would be interesting to see if someone who has an Xbox could attempt this download and see if there is a License Agreement of some sort accompanying it.  I would definitely be interested in seeing what it had to say about the remote access, if anything.  If it doesn't say anything then I smell a lawsuit or a couple hundred.

 

Don't let the man get you down. 8)

[static]

There's probably something in the EULA of the update that gives M$ the right to do something like this.  It is completely insane, though.  They put people in jail for even accessing another system remotely, now M$ is going to do just that, plus delete things from the Xbox hdd?  Does anyone else see any irony in this?

 

It would be interesting to see if someone who has an Xbox could attempt this download and see if there is a License Agreement of some sort accompanying it.  I would definitely be interested in seeing what it had to say about the remote access, if anything.  If it doesn't say anything then I smell a lawsuit or a couple hundred.

 

Don't let the man get you down. 8)

What.... so take it sitting down??

[Gowator]

Here's the thing.

In UK law a contract can only be valid if its legal and balanaced.

 

For instance, if my employer writes I give 3 months notice but they give me a week this is an invalid contract.

 

If M$ write a 'contract' saying they can update my server whenever they want they can, so long as its reciprocal.

 

Now: There is also a question of criminal damage.

This is somewhat dependent in this case as to the use the XBOX was sold for or made for.

If I let down the tyres of your car that is criminal damage. I have prevented the car (albeit) temporarily from being used for its intended purpose. People have sucessfully sue'd the police and people who have clamped their car becuase of this...

 

You can put up a sign saying vehicals parked here will be clamped but if you do you ARE comminting criminal damage.

First an after lunch story ....

I once had a parking dispute where a neighbours visitor blocked me in. 

I started out all nice and she went out to her car to get something so I ran out to ask if she was leaving so I could move the car to my 'common law' off-road parking space outsiode my apartment.  (since the whole appartment area was private an offically she shouldn't have been parking there.  I got my car from the far end (in someone elses spot) and drove down, thinking she was leaving ...

 

She was also taking up two spaces ... so when she said no she was just going to the car for something I asked if she'd move the car into one space.  (I was very polite at this point, Im not just saying that)

 

Anyway, she must have been having a bad day (she had a baby bottle from the car) and went ballistic... and I mean ballistic ... 

 

She was ranting and raving about how she had to feed her baby and how could I expect her to move the car etc.  so I just told her to shut the &&&& up and walked away. 

 

Anyway ... she started screaming at me....

If you notice I walked away .... she couldn't leave with my car where I left it. 

I told her there was no-way whatsoever I was moving the car until she apologised. 

 

By this time a small crowd gathered ... she started raving about how she would just ram my car until it was out of the way... so I repeated (in front of several witnesses that she had just informed me she wasn't F'in leaving and she didn't have the F'in time to move her F'in car ... so she didn't need me to move the car right now and since there was nowhere else for me to park Id move it later when she was leaving and had apologised for her language and tirade of insults and threatening to damage my car. 

 

I informed her I was going back inside becuase in light of her behaviour I was unable to guarantee to control my temper. 

 

(during all of this her tirage of explitives just continued)

 

Ten minutes later the police were at my door demanding I move my car ...

I told them of course I would move it but that I would appreciate it if they could listen to my side of the story and then arrest the woman in question since I had evicence and witnesses to prove she had intent to comit criminal damage and additionally she had been informed (in front of witnesses) that all she had to do was ask politely for me to move the car. 

 

The police didn't really need to knock on doors... half the neighbours were out. 

So back on the steer and in front of witnesses I again asked the police if they would charge her and appealed for witnesses as to her threat. 

Noone said any thing so I aked the inverse, did anyone here disagree she had threatended to damage my car and did anyone disagree I'd offered to move it as soon as she aked politely without swearing...

 

Noone said anything so I addressed the neighbour she was visiting directly with the same questions...

I then repeated to the police that I wished to press charges UNLESS she apologised in a civil manner. 

 

She then made a very stupid mistake .. she attacked me physically in front of the police. 

I simply allowed her to hit me in the face and informed the police I wished to add assualt tothe charges. 

At this point she was being physically restrained by the WPC. 

 

She then attacked the WPC .... an act of sublime stupidity in front of witnesses. 

 

At this point I turned to the WPC who was a sergeant and the superior officer and asked if I still needed to move the car or would they be impounding hers. 

 

Rather amazingly the WPC took my attitude, she had easily restrained the woman and hadn't been hurt and informed the woman she would press charges UNLESS she apologised to her and me and was I still willing to drop charges if she apologised. 

 

I told the WPC that IMHO the woman was presently incapable of anything but obcenities and violence and perhaps she should go back into the house of her friend (who turned out to be her sister) whilst we all had a cup of tea in my appartment. 

 

Ten minutes later the doorbell rang and we both got our apologies ....

WHY....

 

Because I had complied with the letter of the law, I had made sure every action was legal and I left her with the condition that IF she apologised without swearing I would move the car. I had also made it clear I was leaving the car in order to prevent me doing something illegal.

 

Now this is the important part.....

You Americans will have to just bear with me....

Microsoft in its arrogance complies with the letter of US law. That it supplies those letters pre-arranged into words and sentences and definitions to the law is niether here nor there. It is very careful to stay within US law, even when it has to bribe a good many people to change the law.

 

BUT.....

Microsoft doesn't respect any other countries laws.

It sells software in almost every country and expects (in its supreme arrogance) that these countres will respect US law....

Well, wake up Microsoft....

1) Patents and Intellectual property is ILLEGAL in about 25% of those countries. Any Islamic Fundamentalist country cannot accept personal or collective IP because it is the property of GOD.

This is not a debateable point....

 

Therefore Microsoft is acting to incite these people to sin under their laws.

 

I don't agree with this viewpoint but thats not what Im saying. Microsoft wishes to sell worldwide but will NOT respect the LAWS of the countries it does business with.  The above is an extreme example..

In fact - Microsofts position seems to be that it respects US law but does not acknowledge any other LAW. Because it will sell through resellers and pass the responsibility to them. If they break the law in another country they'll come running back to the US courts.

 

2) Under UK law palladium and product activation are unquestionably ILLEGAL. They break the criminal damage law directly but also several other laws.

 

Disabling software becuase you beleive someone might have broken the license agreement is ILLEGAL.

 

BUT....

Nothing has happened yet!!!

Why not....?

They haven't picked on the wrong person yet!!!

Not long ago in the UK a celebrity with lots of money was caught speeding by an automatic camera.

Now, regardless of the rights and wrongs the police acted ILLEGALY - hundreds of thousands of cases went to court based on illegal evidence and the police won becuase they had better lawyers, they even proscuted several members of the royal family :D

 

BUT this guy had money.....

He didn't care about the negative publicity ...

 

AND he found a VERY GOOD LAWYER...

the lawyer sucessfully argued that not only should his client get off but be awarded damages.

 

Since then EVERY CASE for 15 years has been overturned, all you have to do is ask becuase the police can't win anymore. Sure, they aren't just posting checks and apologies out but if you ask they will just roll over and apologise and remove the record and pay damages.

 

When M$ brought in licensing6 they were probably acting illegally in at least one or more countries but they had the companies over the barrel with their trousers down. More specifically they had the IT managers over the barrel.

Companies paid up .... for now....

 

Ive said it before and Ill say it again but only one other industry operates like M$ --- they sell you into the product cheap - they build up your dependance and make it impossible for you to imagine life without it then ... once your hooked, once your unable to disagree they pull the plug ... pay-up or go cold turkey....

In case anyone hasn't got it by now M$ are just technological drug pushers.

 

The problem is on the whole thier addicts, especially those who now deal themselves are hooked. They know its illegal and they have plenty of evidence to take down M$ .. from outright blackmail to subtle memos BUT they can't live without M$.....

 

The XBOX 'fix' is probably illegal elsewhere too. but as everone knows there is at least one wealthy backer of the XBOX linux project.

 

Micro$ in their arrogance think they are invincible, the US justice dept more or less told them so and this is their weakness.

 

Sooner or later they will be taken apart on one item and this one item will open the door to another item or two by another company. This item will lead to two others and before M$ know what hit them they'll be squirming around like SCO the bottom feeders of our society.

 

Before they know where they are they will WANT to split Microsoft so that as one part goes broke it can't drag down the others...

 

Remotely changing the XBOX without explicit concent is one such door.

One good thing about it stasrting in Europe is each case can set a precedent for another EU country but they can be sued simulaneously in all of them.

 

The licensing agreement is moot ... its unimportant becuase its illegal.

READ the EULA for Frontpage...

It specifically says that use to create a web site "disparaging Microsoft, MSNBC, Expedia...." is in breach of the licensing ....

That is illegal....

It cannot be legally enfoced in the UK.

The day they do is the day the flood gates start to crack....

[/code]

[Guest JaseP]

M$ overwriting or erasing information on someone else's machine is potentially illegal in the US as well. It's not as if the person in question had HACKED the box to get Linux running, he simply used a known error to take the oppurtunity to put files ONTO his M$ box. How the exploit was found might be illegal, but if the guy had no part in that, it probably doesn't violate the DMCA.

 

But remember, M$ didn't stop at removing the exploit. They removed his FILES as well. Under Pennsylvania law, that could be considered a violation of PA's anti-hacking statute, a criminal violation, no less.

[Gowator]

Its also very important in UK law that they do this remotely NOT by physcial access.

 

I think their rational is no single XBOX owner can afford to sue them...

 

They are probably right but I think they underestimate the amount of distaste their general attitude fosters.

 

Like in my true story ... I was very careful to play within the limits of the law. I could have insisted on the police pressing charges, especially the assault and she would not have stood a chance...

What I didn't like was her attitude, her I have a baby so I can park wherever I want and forget everyone here has an informal arrangement.

 

Her attitude was she could do this because she had a baby ...becuase she could and that was it.

My reaction to her attitude was to let her dig a hole. I was reasonably confident I knew the law better than her and I was 100% confident that if/when the police arrived they would see one rational person and one bordering on needing locking away for her own good. She was self obsessed and didn't notice the 'neighbours' / witnesses to her threats.

 

I could tell her anything I wanted so long as no witnesses were present ...

She was to self obsessed to see that .....

 

IMHO - Microsoft are that woman....

They are quietly furious that not only has it been hacked once but multiple times.

They sell the same security as military grade and the second hack took one day to crack.

 

They are blinded as to public opinion - and the fact that they are doing something not only illegal BUT repeatable in front of a judge.

 

When the police arrived I knew exactly how to inflame the woman, I was confident at reproducing it in front of credible witnesses. The assault was just a bonus.

 

Microsoft have just commited an offence similar to the 'worlds stupidest burglary' that mtweidman posted.

Its like robbing a bank vault and leaving your business card, only better becuase this can be traced 100% back to M$.... they can't claim the box connected to them all by itelf and some random virus just happened to write over all the XBOXES in the world with a security path they have publically announced!

 

Neither under any UK law can they claim that they can tell you what you can and cannot run on your XBOX.