K.I.S.S.

[kristi]

EDIT: was mumble mumble grumble grumble bitch whine

(info on dual kern is in Tips and Triks - Basics)

:woops:

kristi

 

[moved from Software by spinynorman]

Edited March 14, 2005 by kristi

[devries]

You seem to believe that Windows is the norm and that Linux should be the same as Windows for people to be able to work with it. (click yes click next clicky clicky).

 

Linux is just as much as Windows an mature OS but it works differently (and in my opinion a lot better). When you start with Linux and your only knowledge of computers is Windows you will have to learn new things. If you're not willing to learn Linux is not for you.

 

That said the amount of new things to learn with a distro like Mandrake is not very great. For most people who only use their computer to surf the web, IM, email, write a letter etcetc the only thing they need to know is urpmi. Mandrake has great tools to configure the system and they are pretty inuiitive. But you will have to learn about urpmi, you will have to learn that installing drivers (modules) is a pain if it doesn't come with the stock kernel etcetc.

[kristi]

You seem to believe that Windows is the norm and that Linux should be the same as Windows for people to be able to work with it. (click yes click next clicky clicky).

 

Perhaps 85% of users use a form of Windows. Some people seem to think it is a crime to give newbies detailed help to get them going. That belief shoots Linux right in the leg. If you believe that Windows is the norm, that is your choice. My actions are very clearly in the direction of catching frustrated Windows users and helping them get a solid foothold in Linux. What better way than bu offering detailed help. What worse way than by telling them to go read a book (that doesn't have the answer).

 

Are you afraid that a bunch of windows users might just take to Linux and wind up knowing more than you do?

[devries]

What better way than bu offering detailed help

 

Isn't it much easier to give detailed help through the CLI? It much easier to say type this or type that then click that button, no the other one ,on the next tab and check the second box from the left. :)

 

Anyway, I have to admit I like a GUI better than the CLI because I like to be able to see all the options in front of me (and because I had a hard time with Freevo's local_conf.py :)).

 

How easy to explain something is not the real point. What is important is that Linux is different from Windows. As long as people don't accept the difference they can never work well with Linux. If you don't want to learn about urpmi Mandrake is not for you.

[kristi]

What better way than bu offering detailed help

 

Isn't it much easier to give detailed help through the CLI? It much easier to say type this or type that then click that button, no the other one ,on the next tab and check the second box from the left. :)

 

Anyway, I have to admit I like a GUI better than the CLI because I like to be able to see all the options in front of me (and because I had a hard time with Freevo's local_conf.py :)).

 

How easy to explain something is not the real point. What is important is that Linux is different from Windows. As long as people don't accept the difference they can never work well with Linux. If you don't want to learn about urpmi Mandrake is not for you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yo, dude. What's CLI? (??command line something???) learning a bit about urpmi didn't take much and I think it's FANTASTIC feature. Don't know if it's just MDK but it's dynomite! Definitely one of the reasons I like MDK so much. Now if I could only learn to read....(step 2 button in urpmi!!!)

 

Yeah, some folks think simple means a command line where you have to memorize what to do. Others, like me, prefer to have a gui lead them around by the nose so I can remember what I feel is more important stuff.

I don't see slackware dying anytime soon!!!

Kristi

 

Someone sent me a PM and between Thunderbird and my mood, I blew it off - said something about my posting 450 posts on Xandros. Yep Most were to help other newbies struggling with stuff I had just learned. Ton of fun cause it made me research stuff I had learned and was trying to pass on... Then I got bored and tried MDK.. Then I got bored and tried b3.

Sorry to blow you off - thanks for the note.

Kristi

 

I learned to hate command line on an IBM 7070, and later on a Commodore64 and a couple of little RadioShack machines.

 

Edit 3: Oh, and Devries, if you were the grand poohbah who moved my "Basics" posts to "general help" - THANKS!!! I add a 3rd one there for webcams.

Kristi

Edited March 1, 2005 by kristi

[taliesinangelus]

Someone sent me a PM and between Thunderbird and my mood, I blew it off - said something about my posting 450 posts on Xandros. Yep Most were to help other newbies struggling with stuff I had just learned. Ton of fun cause it made me research stuff I had learned and was trying to pass on... Then I got bored and tried MDK.. Then I got bored and tried b3. icon_mrgreen.gif

Sorry to blow you off - thanks for the note.

 

:) That was me on another forum - I think, unless you have another person that did that. I think it is a good thing, Kristi, that you pass on what you learned the hard way to others so they don't have to take the same knocks.

 

I think that Linux gives people a lot more control than they are often used to coming from Windows environments. Sometimes this level of control can seem daunting but on the whole I think it really speaks to some of us that remember when everything was command-line.

[kristi]

Someone sent me a PM and between Thunderbird and my mood, I blew it off - said something about my posting 450 posts on Xandros. Yep Most were to help other newbies struggling with stuff I had just learned. Ton of fun cause it made me research stuff I had learned and was trying to pass on... Then I got bored and tried MDK.. Then I got bored and tried b3. icon_mrgreen.gif

Sorry to blow you off - thanks for the note.

 

:) That was me on another forum - I think, unless you have another person that did that. I think it is a good thing, Kristi, that you pass on what you learned the hard way to others so they don't have to take the same knocks.

 

I think that Linux gives people a lot more control than they are often used to coming from Windows environments. Sometimes this level of control can seem daunting but on the whole I think it really speaks to some of us that remember when everything was command-line.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

yep, twas you! Glad you picked up on it. :)

I think it is a good thing, Kristi, that you pass on what you learned the hard way to others so they don't have to take the same knocks.

Thanks - it is my hope that a few of the newbies trying Linux will find appropriate help in peoples posts and decide that Linux ain't so bad after all and stick around!!! I was a hard sell so Xandros-Linux was a great/appropriate introductory path for me, but I think there are lots of others for whom MDK will be a good entry, and I fully suspect we'll see much more of that in MDK 10.3, etc

 

I think that Linux gives people a lot more control than they are often used to coming from Windows environments.

I remember well when IBM introduced "RSS" ("resource security system") to its operating systems - confused the hell out of folks at the time - a mini version of Linux permission scheme. Win NT does protect the kern a bit more than before, but it seems inevitable to me that Bill will have to introduce a new opsys with Linux-style permission security. I wonder if he sees that... In the intervening 5 years we have Linux now.

 

To the old folks who still hold on to command line coding, remember - there are still a ton of folks who refuse to move off of DOS. Use what you like, and need!

(make mine a hot chocolate!!!

Kristi

[pbpersson]

Isn't it much easier to give detailed help through the CLI? It much easier to say type this or type that then click that button, no the other one ,on the next tab and check the second box from the left. :)

 

Here is how I see it.....either I have a GUI where I can drag an icon from where it does not belong to where it does belong.....or click on "enable this feature" or whatever. That I will remember. For instance, let's say that to enable my network interface I go to the network interfaces window, find the network interface I want to enable, click on options, and then click on enable......simple.

 

Or, I could instead type sfgfrg/efrd-xffers$%#/hhfttrr/hhgfe-ffd-4435/!!!!

 

Now....which of these methods will I really remember the next time I need to enable a network interface? That is how I compare GUI vs. command line. :D

 

 

Phil

[Cannonfodder]

Depends depends..

 

I'm a shortcuts guy so I like to be able to type my commands and absolutely hate to do 10 steps when I can spend some extra time and reduce it to 1 step. Other people in the office (developers) tend to do the same 10 steps each time and if you try to show them a short cut they mumble *no time* or *cool* but ignore it..

 

Regarding Linux, I like to say that unlike Windows, Linux can be whatever we want it to be. You dig GUI? Do GUI, you like CLI, why not?

 

Kristi, you must be an old hand if you are talking about IBM :0 (just kidding, really!)

[kristi]

Kristi, you must be an old hand if you are talking about IBM :0 (just kidding, really!)

It's not how long you've been around, it's what you've learned!

I never worked for IBM but spent many years "fighting" with them.

[Cannonfodder]

Something tells me they lost..

[Guest anon]

Or, I could instead type sfgfrg/efrd-xffers$%#/hhfttrr/hhgfe-ffd-4435/!!!!

ifup eth0

[adamw]

kristi: windows already has a fairly good permissions system (in fact it's a bit more granular than the standard *nix permission system, which has been around for decades; for finer control on *nix, you can use ACLs, Access Control Lists). the problem is that Windows users (at least home ones, enterprises do) generally don't use it, but the infrastructure is there.

 

pbpersson: ifup eth0. InterfaceUp Ethernet0. pretty easy to remember, at least to my brain...I rarely forget CLI commands, even ones I use lightly.

[kristi]

Something tells me they lost..  

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thanks for the confidence vote, but it ran about 50/50 They had a couple of fabulously smart guys on their SE staff (to balance off the numerous not-so-smart ones.) It was a pleasure to see them work on a 12"hex dump!!!! Those were good days - coffee and choc chip cookies in the middle of the night while pouring over a dump. YUM! Whole 'nother world!

Kristi

[kristi]

kristi: windows already has a fairly good permissions system (in fact it's a bit more granular than the standard *nix permission system, which has been around for decades; for finer control on *nix, you can use ACLs, Access Control Lists). the problem is that Windows users (at least home ones, enterprises do) generally don't use it, but the infrastructure is there.

 

pbpersson: ifup eth0. InterfaceUp Ethernet0. pretty easy to remember, at least to my brain...I rarely forget CLI commands, even ones I use lightly.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hey, Adam! Either I never knew about it or paid no attention to it. What was/is it called? That file sharing thing??? (I guess my excuse is that I never used windows at work, that was always TSO or TCAM or whatever, or smaller dedicated telecom machines like the DataGeneral.

 

I do still have an XP boot and a 98 boot, but they get used about once a month and are heavily firewalled and virusscanned.. I love knowing I've got a 5-way boot!

Kristi