roland Posted January 6, 2004 Report Share Posted January 6, 2004 ok, I was just affraid it could be a little peeping as I don't see what we can do, and as I have no intention to post. I've removed all the e-mail address as I don't want a stupid spammer start to sell some porns, diet pills or else. Some post are I guess from an american businessman and are IMHO worth to read even if its only to understand IT contractor's mentality. " Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 13:03:43 -0500 Subject: [linux-iraq-discuss] Outsourcing to Iraq: good way to benefit Iraqis Can cheap Iraqi programming labor lead to a good IT outsourcing business or does the Iraqi culture makes is tough to pull off? For example of culture based bias in my own work: I like working with offshore Indian developers. I have had good experience with Indian developers here and offshore. I cringe at the atitudue of most Ukranian developers. I have had bad experiences with programmers from the Ukraine. I can really get into since it's just my own experience and I don't want to generalize by trying to analyze the reasons. I like working with Australian developers. They're not cheap labor though... I don't really like working with the British since they're not so up to date with the latest methodologies and they are to stuck up to admit that they're behind so they try to do today's job with yesterday's technologies and methodologies and that produces huge inefficiencies. Again, this is based on my own specific experience and the above explanation is definitely a mere generalization based on my own experience and is not representative of the broader reality... which could be worse... I don't like wroking with the Chinese because once a Chinese developer stole our intellectual property and started selling a Chinese version of our product on his website with absolutely no way to force him to shut down. He told us that the government in China doesn't care about the little people and what they do as long as the're not breaking the law and in China software rights are not part of the law.. Also, the Chinese are too clever for their own good when it comes to business dealings...Again, this is a blatant generalization and it is based on my own experience and the broader reallity... So I have been wondering if I should get a bunch of out of work but technically smart Iraqi engineers (Mechanical or EE's) and form programming shops over there that can produce good work for say $5 an hour. Do any Iraqis living in Iraq like this idea? I can surely farm out work by the Gigabyte but the key issue here is the Iraqi culture.. it is conducive to the rise of a viable outsourcing business or are Iraqi programmers too stuborn to accept customer input (that's how the Ukranian programmers were in my case). Outsourcing is hard to manage as is and you need the most pleasant and passive yet intelligent personality to make it work smoothly. Iraqis maybe pleasant when they're not disturbed but they can burst into a fire storm on impulse.. or if they're cool headed then they're most likely the super smart variety and those (at least the ones I know) tend to be philosophical and too analytical to be told what to do so you're back at square one. Maybe Iraqis can provide cheap efficient labor in other industries like pharmaceuticals and basic research (not as in 'basic' but as in phsyics, chemistry etc) I know that the Iraqis I know are all scientists with PhDs and would have very hard time being given a spec to follow. The need for innovation runs deep. So I'm not sure that an Iraqi Outsourcing experiment could work for software development. But outsourcing basic research once higher education is back to what it used to be could be the right path for Iraq since you would have hundreds of thousands of PhDs who would cost very little, i.e. same brain but less money. Anyways.. just food for thought... I had really considered setting up a software development shop in Iraq but I don't think Iraqis are cut out for such work.. it isn't about having the brains for it but about having the right atitude.. Please ignore my characterization of programmers from different countries. It is based solely on my specific set of experiences... but I did want to speak about those experiences to make the case that certain jobs require a certain type of personality... It's just a theory. " reply: " Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 06:56:21 +0300 Subject: Re: [linux-iraq-discuss] Outsourcing to Iraq: good way to benefit Iraqis what a great experience u got ! i am iraqi student and programmers , and i live in iraq , and i would like to ensure u that 5$/hour will be a good start for the first 2 years as most requirements in iraq r cheap ( at least for now). " reply: " Subject: Re: Re: [linux-iraq-discuss] Outsourcing to Iraq: good way to benefit Iraqis Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 00:13:54 -0500 Nice Move! I'm sure everyone in this group is going to jump on you offering you work .. that is if they recognize the opportunity and are in the software contracting business.. I'll email you with the requirements. I encourage to take the time (even if it takes months) to come up to a level of proven expertise where it would be immediately justifiable to give you project responsibility. Check your email in a few hours and then take the time to get back to me. In the meantime, I hope very much that others here will take the opportunity to talk to you about the same. You will have to work and deliver a few projects and gain extensive real project experience (i.e. with your neck on the line) to understand the full scope of responsibility and learn to estimate delivery schedules and deliver quality work. The outsourcing can only work assuming a great level of discipline, effective experience, and prudence on both ends. I would actually volunteer to setup and lead an experimental outsourcing shop in Iraq but I think there is a lot of learning and gaining of real project experience that is required for everyone who wants to get into it from the Iraqi side. I have no doubt in my mind that the people who invented writing and law will once again be great. You just have to take it one step at a time down a thousand mile road. I will have to feel you're ready and have demonstrated your abilities and discipline.. trust me.. this is not as easy as whipping up some program no matter how much programming experience you have.. my neck is on the line when I out source customer deliverables and there is a lot to it. Like I said, not everyone is right for this job.. but there is a standard process by which one can tell who is right and who is not.. it's called experience.. and I sure hope that I have enough of it because outsourcing like everything else is full of pot holes.. we need to pave the road, so to speak, before we drive on it.. we need to make sure there is a great degree of responsibility and a dependable and long term pattern of follow through and above all an attitude and a culture that makes it possible! But I'm willing to volunteer time to work with people like yourself to build a good team with its own culture of responsibility and its own good attitude, if that is even possible... nothing ventured nothing gained, huh? Take care and don't get too enthusiastic about it because it is really bigger than one person who happens to be subscribed to this Linux group. It takes a lot to build a team that can be effective and that can do the job and we have to be building the team while at the same time providing this untested, under-construction team with work which if not done properly could harm my relationships with customers so the only way is if you and other programmers in Iraq have the patience and time to fulfill the requirements and then prove your workmanship and customer service attitude with a couple of trials before I put you on the commercial scene. I have no vested interest in this other than to see Iraq back on track.. the track to regional and global leadership, which it fell out of ages ago (800-900 years or so?.. you can't go back up there without another 800-900 years of climbing upwards... there is nothing exciting or fun about getting back up there... not in my lifetime.. however, I hope the decline has come to an end and that Iraq will go back again in the right direction... Your looking at 6 months of preparation. It would be insane to outsource work without a solid foundation.. and patience is a very important component as well as being a test for stability and the desire to build a disciplined and dependable team in a country where chaos and unpredictability are the central players.. It takes time to build a good thing and it takes more time to keep it going and growing... The economics are attractive as you said... the goal is noble.. and the road is long.. Perfect! I'll take the job! I would like to volunteer specific leadership know-how to this Iraqi outsourcing venture! Remember, like a famous US official said recently, it will be a "hard long slog" ... Outsourcing teams require a supporting culture and the right mental and social attitudes and it's much safer to work with India based teams but if we pull it off in Iraq then the world will take notice... but the bottom line despite all this rhetoric is that it can probably work and if I can be involved as far as lending my specific experience with offshore team management and US based outsourcing (the US is the largest outsourcing market) then sure why not. I encourage other experience folks to apply their experience to help Iraqis in this way. Take care you all! I'll email you the requirements shortly to your email account. " and an other one: " Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 12:16:08 +0100 Subject: Re: [linux-iraq-discuss] Outsourcing to Iraq: good way to benefit Iraqis Hi all, I don't think it has to take 900 years. Take germany and Japan: they were both destroyed after the second world war, and within a few decades they worked themselves up to economical superpowers. And I don't think it has to be difficult. Why don't you start small? I am subscribed to a Dutch mailing list of 500 professional web designers. I know that at least one of them has contact with HTML coders from the Ukraine, where labour is much cheaper than in Western Europe. Perhaps there are coders of HTML, PHP/MySQL, ASP, XML, Java or Javascript here amongst you... If you give me names, contact information, specialities and some examples (URL's) of previous work, I can post that information on the mailing list, and we'll see what happens. Or we can put it on an "Iraqi IT experts" web page, so that even more people find it. Best regards Onno " interesting and positive roland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pzatch Posted January 7, 2004 Report Share Posted January 7, 2004 Personally i don't like the tone or content of the buissiness mans emails at all. I've tried working with men who sound exactly like that. Months of drawings, prototypes, faxs and phone calls. Yes we can do the work, what does you customer want? Then. Ok we got the sketches how about these revised drawings of them? Ok he wants something a little different. How about this?(new drawings get sent) Ok your customer likes them. Now he wants prototypes. No problem we'll ship them in a day. He likes them. Great. When can we expect the order?(a month passes so we call back) He didn't want that many but now wants just a small run at the same price.(from thousands to hundreds) How about this new price? Ok he'll take it great. When can we expect the order? We never got the order but found the product on the shelves with our design and same measurments 6 months later. He found someone to make it for 1 cent less. This man's name is now mud in our small industry. He ended up getting beefed in the end by the manufacturer of the stuff and was cut out of the loop. He came back to us with a new product after he found no one would work with him in the eastern US any more. I personally told him to stuff it. He sounded just like this emailer. He's got a price and someone to do the job. Why can't he just send him some work to find out how good he is and be done with the speaches. Why do people have to piddle around with stuff like this? You should send Onno a link to this site. I would like to hear how the things are going over there and what type of hardware their running. In the end its a positive move. I hope it pans out for them. Dang. If I had IT work for the guy I would at least send him a little just to see the work and then pay him for his time or by the job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Scrimpshire Posted January 7, 2004 Report Share Posted January 7, 2004 I would like to add that I, too, do not like the tone in the businessman's emails. He sounds like a scammer to me (you may have removed these for privacy reasons, but I doubt it): (1) The subject of his email is typical ego-stroking: "Outsourcing to Iraq: good way to benefit Iraqis" (2) He goes on to offer them $5/hour??? Gimme a break. (3) He blatantly stereotypes practically every other culture in the world, even accusing the Chinese of doing the very same thing I presume he is about to attempt to do. Great distraction technique. (4) He never mentions his name, qualifications or company he works for Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkelve Posted January 7, 2004 Report Share Posted January 7, 2004 (edited) Personally i don't like the tone or content of the buissiness mans emails at all. No, me neither. I don't think you can say the guy is really 'open-minded'... I wouldn't be quick to trust him. Not quick at all. Unfortunate thing is, those Iraqi people are not really in a good position to make demands... I wonder how corporations work with people in India though. Might be similar, and therefore, interesting, even if just to compare. (joke:) Maybe M$ needs some more people to work on Longhorn :P Edited January 7, 2004 by Darkelve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roland Posted January 7, 2004 Report Share Posted January 7, 2004 Pzatch I know what you mean. There is some (especially on big companies in my experience) that think they can put all the pressure they want on there supplier before realizing that they need you more than you need them. Personally I was a little surprised about the tone of this businessman but I had no opinion yet as I don't know at all the usual tone of IT contractors in general and American businessman usual tone in particular. Well some things he said seems good to me: humility, patience, discipline are good at work, some things bad: stereotypes, asking them to work for free to evaluate them. Steve: the text are from a mailing list you can find there link scammer ? I didn't thought of that but thats a possibility. $5/hour ? I don't know indian or ukrainian price. Do you know ? Darkelve: yes of course, better not trust too easily. But if I was an iraqi, I may spend a little time to see what it is. roland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkelve Posted January 7, 2004 Report Share Posted January 7, 2004 (edited) Working for free to *evaluate* them??? I mean this is absurd, especially seeing the Iraqi people must have operating costs as well. Which basically means they will be working at a loss! Why do they not do a 'small' test-project and pay part of the money (a percentage) in advance, and then dough up the rest after the work is completed (project should not be *too* big). Imho, that is much more acceptable then working for free, plus the risk for both parties involved is much lower. Or a different approach, but certainly not taking the risk of getting exploited. Edited January 7, 2004 by Darkelve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roland Posted January 7, 2004 Report Share Posted January 7, 2004 (edited) Working for free to *evaluate* them??? I mean this is absurd, especially seeing the Iraqi people must have operating costs as well. Which basically means they will be working at a loss! Why do they not do a 'small' test-project and pay part of the money (a percentage) in advance, and then dough up the rest after the work is completed (project should not be *too* big). Imho, that is much more acceptable then working for free, plus the risk for both parties involved is much lower. Or a different approach, but certainly not taking the risk of getting exploited. I agree with that 100% [EDIT] Seeing how it goes is interesting IMO but I will not copy posts from the mailing list any more. But everybody can subscribe too so we could continue to share our impressions here. roland Edited January 7, 2004 by roland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkelve Posted January 7, 2004 Report Share Posted January 7, 2004 (edited) Are we welcome, I mean, are there any special requirements to join? Edited January 7, 2004 by Darkelve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roland Posted January 7, 2004 Report Share Posted January 7, 2004 Are we welcome, .. I don't know .. I mean, are there any special requirements to join? no roland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkelve Posted January 8, 2004 Report Share Posted January 8, 2004 (edited) maybe we can just say something in the likes of "we'll be here when you need us?" Kind of like free consultancy ;) ? Since we have no stake in anything, this source will be a lot easier for them to trust. Edited January 8, 2004 by Darkelve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roland Posted January 8, 2004 Report Share Posted January 8, 2004 maybe we can just say something in the likes of "we'll be here when you need us?" Kind of like free consultancy ;) ? Since we have no stake in anything, this source will be a lot easier for them to trust. That's what I was thinking about: just say hello, we are here and we are the best forum. Hem .. after you if you please, Can you do it ? did you subscribe ? me I'm shy ;) and more obviously I'm afraid with my english considering they are going to have there first impression only once right ? roland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkelve Posted January 8, 2004 Report Share Posted January 8, 2004 (edited) Hem .. after you if you please, Can you do it ? did you subscribe ? me I'm shy ;) and more obviously I'm afraid with my english considering they are going to have there first impression only once right ? roland I don't think their/our English will be their biggest worry. I do not know how well English in Iraq is being taught and used, but I would be surprised if they based their opinions solely on that. Anyhow, I can only speak in my own name, but I will be sure to remind them that if they want to, they can have a look here and that there will be a lot of people waiting here to give them good advice. Can we really change anything? I do not know, but I know it is worth trying to! Edit: okay, I subscribed. I'm pretty curious for that first batch digest now... Edited January 8, 2004 by Darkelve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roland Posted January 8, 2004 Report Share Posted January 8, 2004 Can we really change anything? I do not know, but I know it is worth trying to! Many Little streams make big river.. :) roland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rayash Posted January 8, 2004 Report Share Posted January 8, 2004 The company/name that owns the domain is all over the net: http://www.thebodyteam.com/port.htm http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120668/ http://www.arc-brevard.org/Revolution.htm http://zgp.org/~dmarti/resume/ http://www.livejournal.com/users/dmarti/2002/12/09/ wonder how much cash people are giving him from the paypal link... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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