static Posted July 21, 2003 Report Share Posted July 21, 2003 I really don't like the gun analogy. I prefer to think of linux as Ghandi's peaceful resistence. What can an army do to a peace loving, sharing, open public that won't make linux a martyr? Look at Tibet - the Chinese look like the evil, still, 50 years later because of their occupation. Free Tibet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlc Posted July 21, 2003 Report Share Posted July 21, 2003 I really don't like the gun analogy. I prefer to think of linux as Ghandi's peaceful resistence. What can an army do to a peace loving, sharing, open public that won't make linux a martyr? Look at Tibet - the Chinese look like the evil, still, 50 years later because of their occupation. Free Tibet. China looks like evil because there goverment is evil, Hu Jintao is a bad dude! Communist is a horable way to live life, needs to go down like the Berlin wall & Russia. :wink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
static Posted July 21, 2003 Report Share Posted July 21, 2003 I really don't like the gun analogy. I prefer to think of linux as Ghandi's peaceful resistence. What can an army do to a peace loving, sharing, open public that won't make linux a martyr? Look at Tibet - the Chinese look like the evil, still, 50 years later because of their occupation. Free Tibet. China looks like evil because there goverment is evil, Hu Jintao is a bad dude! Communist is a horable way to live life, needs to go down like the Berlin wall & Russia. :wink: WOAH. Let's not get into a political debate. I said they look evil because they invaded a peaceful country. Period. It has nothing to do with communism. Besides - how can you say that about communism - have you ever lived in it? I haven't, so I can't say anything about it. I have lived in capitalist democracy, so I know that certainly doesn't work. It's all opinion - no one can say anything is "right" or "wrong" in politics. There is nothing to debate here. We believe in linux, others believe in Microsoft. If M$ ever tried to take us on, it would be one evil american corp against the world, just like China versus the more than 50 countries who support Tibet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlc Posted July 21, 2003 Report Share Posted July 21, 2003 I really don't like the gun analogy. I prefer to think of linux as Ghandi's peaceful resistence. What can an army do to a peace loving, sharing, open public that won't make linux a martyr? Look at Tibet - the Chinese look like the evil, still, 50 years later because of their occupation. Free Tibet. China looks like evil because there goverment is evil, Hu Jintao is a bad dude! Communist is a horable way to live life, needs to go down like the Berlin wall & Russia. :wink: WOAH. Let's not get into a political debate. I said they look evil because they invaded a peaceful country. Period. It has nothing to do with communism. Besides - how can you say that about communism - have you ever lived in it? I haven't, so I can't say anything about it. I have lived in capitalist democracy, so I know that certainly doesn't work. It's all opinion - no one can say anything is "right" or "wrong" in politics. There is nothing to debate here. We believe in linux, others believe in Microsoft. If M$ ever tried to take us on, it would be one evil american corp against the world, just like China versus the more than 50 countries who support Tibet. Well I work with a friend that just left China a few years after being there all his life so I'm baseing most of my opinion off of his. I have more opinions than that but I wont share them here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gowator Posted July 21, 2003 Report Share Posted July 21, 2003 So while carefully sidestepping any communist type political stuff...I sorta see the point but lets not go there .... ........ But the point is Linux is an ideal not a product. While I and any sane person who understands OS's might see its technical superiority over windows that isn't worth jack. Is a PC technically superior to a Sun/SGI/IBM UNIX machine .?.. no way. Not even close!! Is Linux a more stable OS than Solaris ... I don't think so. BUT .... I can't run my IRIX apps on my PC ... but I can run my open source apps on any UNIX ... What made M$ there money which they used to subvert the enterprise market was accesibility. A PC for everyone ... People with PC's at home made half the training for themselves and so slowly Lotus 123 running on DOS became a defacto standard in finance depts. Wordpefect did the same in secretarial pools .... and hey DOS became king in numbers of licenses. This is what made Windows .... the shere userbase of people who could own it for themselves.... Of course we all know the story ... M$ got greedy and decided to attack the enterprise market.... this is when things started to spiral. M$ figured it could get away with the same dog food it served up for home users and desktops ... it released NT3 after getting impatient with IBM actually wanting to finish a product before releasing it ... Then the rest is history ... Like any successful street pusher M$ got in cheap and low ... hooked its customers in and then started to reel in the line.... Meanwhile, just off stage linux was getting ready to open its eyes and venture into the real world ... M$ was too busy killing of its competitors to even notice the small mammel that started eating away at its eggs. In the euphoria of bankrupting competitor after competitor M$ completely missed linux getting bigger and stronger..... Microsoft is based in home use, it is a joke for anything else but whilst its been busy screwing its corporate customers linux has taken home base, the home users. Bill Gates swang a u-turn on the internet from saying Microsoft had no interest at all to what you see today where they are trying to buy it. But thats the problem you see. Microsoft has never invented ANYTHING. Everything it has ever done is plagurised, copied or stolen... or if they can't work out how to copy it they buy the company. Microsoft copyrighted the word Windows ... i keep typing windows this, windows that but everyone knows they didn't invent it. They stole CP/M and QDOS which stood for quick and Dirty OS and stuck Windows 3.0 on top, harldy looking any different form the DEC Windows. Ahh Hell I can't be bothered even explainig anymore .... who did the quote ... its like nailing jello to a tree.... lets just leave it at that :wink: Windows has never been superior at anything except marketing ... What can't kill linux is: if I got given a nice new Sunblade i'd wipe off Solaris 9 and replace it with linux becuase its more usable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlc Posted July 21, 2003 Report Share Posted July 21, 2003 So while carefully sidestepping any communist type political stuff...I sorta see the point but lets not go there .... ........ But the point is Linux is an ideal not a product. While I and any sane person who understands OS's might see its technical superiority over windows that isn't worth jack. Is a PC technically superior to a Sun/SGI/IBM UNIX machine .?.. no way. Not even close!! Is Linux a more stable OS than Solaris ... I don't think so. BUT .... I can't run my IRIX apps on my PC ... but I can run my open source apps on any UNIX ... What made M$ there money which they used to subvert the enterprise market was accesibility. A PC for everyone ... People with PC's at home made half the training for themselves and so slowly Lotus 123 running on DOS became a defacto standard in finance depts. Wordpefect did the same in secretarial pools .... and hey DOS became king in numbers of licenses. This is what made Windows .... the shere userbase of people who could own it for themselves.... Of course we all know the story ... M$ got greedy and decided to attack the enterprise market.... this is when things started to spiral. M$ figured it could get away with the same dog food it served up for home users and desktops ... it released NT3 after getting impatient with IBM actually wanting to finish a product before releasing it ... Then the rest is history ... Like any successful street pusher M$ got in cheap and low ... hooked its customers in and then started to reel in the line.... Meanwhile, just off stage linux was getting ready to open its eyes and venture into the real world ... M$ was too busy killing of its competitors to even notice the small mammel that started eating away at its eggs. In the euphoria of bankrupting competitor after competitor M$ completely missed linux getting bigger and stronger..... Microsoft is based in home use, it is a joke for anything else but whilst its been busy screwing its corporate customers linux has taken home base, the home users. Bill Gates swang a u-turn on the internet from saying Microsoft had no interest at all to what you see today where they are trying to buy it. But thats the problem you see. Microsoft has never invented ANYTHING. Everything it has ever done is plagurised, copied or stolen... or if they can't work out how to copy it they buy the company. Microsoft copyrighted the word Windows ... i keep typing windows this, windows that but everyone knows they didn't invent it. They stole CP/M and QDOS which stood for quick and Dirty OS and stuck Windows 3.0 on top, harldy looking any different form the DEC Windows. Ahh Hell I can't be bothered even explainig anymore .... who did the quote ... its like nailing jello to a tree.... lets just leave it at that :wink: Windows has never been superior at anything except marketing ... What can't kill linux is: if I got given a nice new Sunblade i'd wipe off Solaris 9 and replace it with linux becuase its more usable. I pretty much agree with everything you have said. Except the SunBlade, I would leave Solaris on it. :wink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gowator Posted July 21, 2003 Report Share Posted July 21, 2003 Problem is for home use .... I guess with gnome the usability is fixed ....CDE is getting kinda long in the tooth. But I might realistically actually have linux on. Solaris is a hell of a nice OS technically .... but linux has spoiled me. I know you can get VIM source and comile it but somehow I never do and everytime I go back to plain old vi I start cursing like the first time i ever used it!! Somehow it seems like a shame that solaris could end up being a casualty of linux more than Windoze.... I always though of SUN the WS were fairly mediocre .. nothing wrong but lousy graphics compared to SGI and lousy processors compared to IBM.... but basically nothing wrong with them, just not exciting ... (still aesthetically nothing beats IBM for DRAB) but basically good solid machines with an VERY stable OS. Linux is nice, its playing the same game at least as an OS ... but to quote pulp fiction Windoze aint even in the same ballpark... If anyones wondering why Im coming and going I just went back onto my shorewall Mandy box now the SME server box is in production :wink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ixthusdan Posted July 21, 2003 Report Share Posted July 21, 2003 Whether anyone likes it or not, what microbrat does and what sco is doing are acts of viloence in the business world. In fact, a business does not succeed without being aggressive. But equating aggression with violence is a little confusing. Like wise, guns are confused with aggression and violence. I know many people who own and handle firearms and are not violent. I know many linux users who are not writing virus code attacking ms products. I aggressively advocate linux use, but I am not violent. That would be stooping to the level of my adversary. It is a fact that populations are dominated by their government when they cannot defend themselves. It is also a fact the a population with a real choice in os's choose linux. The only way for ms to win is to remove the choice, and imprison the makers of that choice. I am not comfortable with all of this, but then that is the world i live in. Such is life. :wink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aRTee Posted July 21, 2003 Report Share Posted July 21, 2003 On the pc versus HP (et al) machines: I'm sorry, but it takes a very powerful very very expensive machine to outrun my 2GHz AthlonXP. I work on a daily basis with HP PA-RISC 32GB RAM machines (well, we have some of those, and also less powerful machines) and bottomline is: for jobs that fit into 4GB, I'd be faster / better off with a P4 3GHz or my own athlon.... Running linux, the designsoftware we have doesn't even run on MSWin... :P In any case, what do you guys think are the heaviest lifting apps? Chip design scores quite high as far as I know. Forget database stuff (although google is quite something), raw calculation power plus database stuff combined is much heavier. We have to do simulations that take days and days. Some things we can't run because we'd get the result after our design has to be ready onto the market... What does AMD design the K9 on? On Hammer/K8. Really, in speed the pc has outdone the high end cpu's except power4, ItaniumII .... in price/performance, pc cpu's are really much much better. Back to linux: so yes, Unix will be supplanted by linux, because people using that kind of equipment will buy from whomever will guarantee and provide service. BTW our most important software vendor (Cadence) has by now ported all software to linux. Due to Market Demand. BTW: not that linux being cheap and pc's being cheap was the point. It's value for money, and affordable speed. Where I work, a 'designers seat' (each designers setup/system) costs 35.000 dollar per year. (50kCHF) Sure they'd love to bring that down, but kicking out MS is not going to be a big thing there. Some of the software we have is 100k$ per license..... If you can run it on faster hardware, you can make do with less licenses. Really, linux on pc has a point here. On a side note, there is one department that decides when/where to use what. and I know they have/use linux, but for now we can't... ah well, at least I know they are looking at it seriously.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gowator Posted July 21, 2003 Report Share Posted July 21, 2003 Forgot to mention HPUX... Well unless you really want something that ineracts seamlesly with your Mass Spec and ICP HPUX is way to go but like Sun theres nothing amazing... Depending what your doing a workstation can have a real advantage. I know people building visualisation clusters on linux but you need a hell of a lot to outpermform a top of the range SGI Viz server. Same goes for CPU performance on a power4 ... Although Im a stricly Atholon user since last week when I offloaded my past intel's to my bar they fall behind, especially on fpu. But the real difference is the switched motherboard. Even an old, cheap Sun E450 can shift more throughput through the busses than any Pentium/Athalon class Mobo. I forget the exact specs but ... I think an E450 has 4 independent PCI buses and these are switched. That is the big difference for raw throughput. Most PC's ahve a single bus which is IRQ driven whereas workstations are switched. If you wanna run a webserver then theirs little advantage. If you wanna do single CPU calculations then your better off with an Itanium or Power 4. But if you want RAW THROUGHPUT you need a switched motherboard. Effectively a PC runs the busses like a hub, wheras a true workstation uses switching. Don't get me wrong I just advocated replacing our remote access servers with linux from E280R's, basically for two reasons...the E280 is a piece of Junk !! Its a E450 with reduced bus bandwidth. and the application in question needs RAW single processor CPU. That gives two choices, a IBM or a intel/amd PC. Like your software ours costs hundreds of thousands per suite per year but the mutliprocessor licenses are extra... but you will never get more than a single bus can handle throughput on a PC. For something like an NFS server this cqn be important, our average file size is somewhere between 2-4GB and we serve 122TB on the Paris site and about 110 in Pau. If you want 100 people all getting 200MB/sec reads it simply won't happen on a single PC. However ..... Maybe a cluster of PC's with a very fast NW switch ... but youd have to rewrite NFS3 and the Raid suites. Not impossible by any means but not something to do when your bored on a sunday :wink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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