aRTee Posted March 26, 2003 Report Share Posted March 26, 2003 I'm thinking of talking to some pc vendors here who sell hardware, even laptops, without any OS installed. They normally offer to install MSWin, but I could try to make a deal to have them sell systems with Mdk9.1. After all, the biggest problem with linux (apart from not having the exact same software/games) is how to install and configure the hardware properly. One problem that arises is this: the buyer would get his box, no keyboard, no mouse, no display. So how does he go round to configure everything for his hardware: mouse, keyboard, display? Also, how to get him to make a user account plus password, how to handle the root password etc. Maybe he should get the first cd (others could be iso's on the harddrive), and instructions on putting it in, selecting upgrade, not adding any packages, just selecting the right mouse, keyboard and screen resolution/etc, set a root password and create at least one user+passwd...? The other problem that arises is: how to install mandrake automatically (over a network) with the least effort? I imagine it should be possible to setup a server and just pop in a cd or floppy in the empty/clean machine, connect it with a network cable to the server, and boot. The floppy or cd should then have all that is necessary to make the client connect to the server and install all preselected (by me, not standard) packages. It should include for instance the nvidia drivers if applicable. Does anyone have any experience with this type of install? BTW the idea is to have nothing connected to the client pc while this goes on, no display, keyboard or mous, no hassle... I might be able to get them to put the exact same hardware into each box, in that case, would it be better to just directly copy the data to the hd (no installation, just partitioning, formatting and copying data over)? Any comments, ideas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtweidmann Posted March 26, 2003 Report Share Posted March 26, 2003 I don't see why having the ISOs on the HD would really help. Surely it would be easier just have 3 CDs or 1 DVD? Anyway if the machines came setup up with CD/DVD as bootable all they would have to do is stick the CD in the drive and boot it. You can make auto-install disks, which store the package selection and hardware setup. As I only have two machines I have never experimented with it, but it is there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michel Posted March 26, 2003 Report Share Posted March 26, 2003 I agree with the previous...ALthough I've never used auto-install, it exist for the reason of easy identical installation on multiple pc's... I'm also a little confused. You mention that the sellers install the OS? Is there a problem with that or do the buyers get the software and install it themselves...or both? I suppose the second one is the problem....If you order a complete pc(I suppose this is the case here), the seller nows the components.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ndeb Posted March 26, 2003 Report Share Posted March 26, 2003 I don't see why having the ISOs on the HD would really help.Its does help when:1. no cd drive (but floppy and hard drives are there) 2. no cd burner to create a CD 3. cd burner present but you do not have any OS installed 4. cd burner present and an OS is installed but no software to burn an ISO image into a CD 5. cd burner present along with software (say cdrecord) but the particular version of cdrecord does not work correctly with your CD-burner drive. 6. cd burner present and everything works but burning a 650MB cd will take 20 extra minutes on your 4x media. Why waste that time when you can easily finish install in 20 minutes ? Also, why waste a CD-R disc (unless you are using CD-RW discs) ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aRTee Posted March 26, 2003 Author Report Share Posted March 26, 2003 Ok, there seems to be some confusion about what I intend/am thinking about. The resellers currently offer systems with no OS, and winXP plus some software for the price of XPhome and extra software plus about 35$ (50swiss francs) for the installation. Which easily turns a 300US$ pc into a 450+US$ pc.... If I ask them to sell systems with Mandrake (or any linux), just by giving them 3 cd´s they are going to say: - nice, 3 cd´s, why should I even waste time looking at them... So I was thinking: - if I can get them to commit to a standard configuration (no sudden, unforseen changes in terms of hardware, for instance using a different ethernet card because the other ones went out of stock, or whatever), so people only get to choose speed of the cpu, quantity of memory, - and can setup a box at their backoffice as a server that can help their employees to install mandrake on any no-OS-system WITHOUT THEM HAVING TO DO MORE THAN CONNECT THE PC AND CLICK ONCE, they might just like the idea of making some 35$ extra, I mean, for 1 minute of setup time (hook up the ethernet card to the server), popping in a floppy or cd and booting. (BTW Yes I´ll definitely offer to collect part of that 35$) If their employees (who are just salesmen really) have to do anything ¨complex¨ like type in something, or click through menus or so, they will never go for it... I don't see why having the ISOs on the HD would really help. Surely it would be easier just have 3 CDs or 1 DVD? Anyway if the machines came setup up with CD/DVD as bootable all they would have to do is stick the CD in the drive and boot it. No you´re not getting what I meant; .... I said: I might be able to get them to put the exact same hardware into each box, in that case, would it be better to just directly copy the data to the hd (no installation, just partitioning, formatting and copying data over)? By which I meant: if the hardware of the client pc (the one being sold) is the same each time, I wouldn´t have to make it go through any install, I´d just have to clone the data from one such client pc (data which has since been copied to the server machine) that has been properly installed and set-up. So: server pc with all data (not its own linux system, but exact copy from previous succesful install on client-type pc), client pc with empty harddisk booted with floppy or cd, without any hardware (mouse, keyboard, monitor), connected to the server pc. Boot the client, the bootflop or cd tells it to get a network address via dhcp and execute some code that does the following: -create hd partitions, format those -copy data over from server pc, thereby obtaining the exact data as it was on the first client install, i.e. completely installed and configured -writing the mbr of the client -beep to tell it´s done. Also, some popup on the server would be nice.. A classical install would require people clicking buttons, swapping cds etc. Even with the floppy for exact same install (same options), it would require swapping cds, basically monitoring the system. The floppy with info for ´same install´ combined with network install would be quite good. But then you still don´t have the nvidia drivers for instance.... Also, the regular install would take about 20-30 minutes, whereas copying the hd info would be 3.5GB (my average mdk install, and I install loads of things), this can be written over the network at 10MB/s ==> 350 sec = 6 min. But maybe I´m missing something, and that´s why I posted things here. Network install with NFS mounted stuff and bootfloppy that contains all selections may be much easier... The other matter: how to deal with the customer side of things... What do they need? They get the pc with Mdk installed, all drivers (incl Nvidia, if applicable, and any other stuff that´s not in Mdk that is needed, ie. drivers for nic/audio or whatnot), everything configured. Except their mouse (maybe keyboard, but there an educated guess would be to assume they have a DE_CH layout/swissgerman) and their monitor. So, should the pc use a 60Hz XGA (1024x768) setup in the xf86config? Or should they have the first cd (others on hd as iso´s that are automatically mounted and known as resource to the system I think would/might be easiest) and an instruction leaflet (and of course the license explicitly telling them they can install and pass around etc) telling them to hook things up and run through the install process without installing anything, but just selecting: mouse, keyboard, root passwd, make at least one user account + passwd, and setup their monitor By the way, it would be more problematic to sell them 3cds, who would make those? The employees at the shop? Me? Just one cd as rescue disc is necessary, but the rest they could do from hd, and if they have the iso´s it wouldn´t be a problem for them to burn those and pass around etcetcetc. More ideas: have the shop sell Mdk9.1 download edition, 3 cds for 7$ (10CHF) and offer to either take back the cd´s (or give equivalent rebate) if they buy a Mdk Pack or send them the Mdk9.2 (or 10 ;) ) download edition as soon as it´s out if they join the club. People who bought a preinstalled pc of course also get a rebate on the Mdk Pack, or the next dl edition if they become a member. Like I said, the tough thing is to install linux (or, to figure out what hardware will function well) and configure it. Once you´re past that point (which is where you are if you buy preinstalled/preconfigured), you can likely get around... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michel Posted March 26, 2003 Report Share Posted March 26, 2003 maybe have a sollution: this is some text from the mandrakeforums: Using the ISO image manipulation software, cut&paste the "rpms2" directory from the cd2...ISO and the "rpms3" directory from the cd3...ISO into the "Mandrake" directory in the cd1...ISO. Say you save it on a fat-partition(or whatever) can be recognized by the installer).... Alle the iso's in each other.... You put the installerfloppy in the new computer...The tricky part: can the floppy detect the other computer?if yes, you can select the path to the directory and install... Maybe with the auto-install-floppy, you can automate the path-searching too, soo the only thing they have to do is insert the floppy...The question is...can it detect the networkconnection and so the other computer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michel Posted March 26, 2003 Report Share Posted March 26, 2003 I've done my latest installs from harddisk, just wanted to say, you can also just copy the file(not the iso's) and give the path to the directory where everuthing is located...( no iso in iso is needed) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aRTee Posted March 27, 2003 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2003 Michel, thanks for your input and personal experience. 2 things: first:if you just want to add something, please use the edit button at the top right of your own post. Second, please reread what my questions where and comment on the issues that I brought forward: how to get a fully usable install with minimum effort, and what can one expect the customer to do before being able to use his new system. BTW What I forgot to mention also is that java, real etc should work on at least mozilla, if possible also opera and other webbrowsers; dvd playback and 3d graphics accelleration should function out of the box. So how to install all that in one go? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michel Posted March 27, 2003 Report Share Posted March 27, 2003 Your asking a lot I think(but maybe not impossible, but diificult anyway..). just thought...Say you want to set the partitions your own way(what is better than the standard to my opinion: resiserfs, xfs,...) , I don't think every computer has the same size in harddisk..this would limit it too much. I don't think you can set the auto-installer in a way that the size of the partitions is like you would want it...or can it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aRTee Posted March 27, 2003 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2003 I started with the basic thought that I could get them to have the hardware fixed, meaning they will not change the size of the hd without me knowing. The customer gets to choose the cpu speed grade and the quantity of RAM and that´s all. Per configuration of course. Or I could set things up so it gets detected. And the whole idea of autoinstaller doesn´t solve the problem of nvidia or other proprietary drivers, dvd playback, flash/real, java etc. Which needs to be solved or the customer won´t be satisfied. So back to my question: how could I manage the install to have a completely functional machine with the least effort, and what do you guys think a non-specialist user (who may not know linux, he may just like the system on display at the shop) needs to get started. Or is linux really too difficult for the average computer user? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michel Posted March 27, 2003 Report Share Posted March 27, 2003 I think with the prioper setting you can make linux(in kde to my knowing and probably also others) more userfriendly tha others... -by adding all the compressed formats ark can support -lot of programs, with mimtypes already assigned, especially for udio/video/flash/...like you mentionned... I would choose one player for all mimetypes...Although xine doesn't have the collest front-end, it seems to be better for dvd..., else I would choose mplayer.....but that 's up to you ofcourse. Being sure that accesing floppies, cd's and dvd's go flawless... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aRTee Posted March 27, 2003 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2003 Michel, please stay on the subject. I`m not talking about userfriendlyness, more or less than some other system. I`m talking about fast carefree installation that offers all necessary stuff. And besides that, what one may or may not expect an average user to do to get going on his new system, and what he needs to know to do that.. I am interested in your and everybody elses opinion and experience, but just about those matters, not about how nice mdk (9.1) is, or how userfriendly you can make it by setting up correct mime types, or whatever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ixthusdan Posted March 27, 2003 Report Share Posted March 27, 2003 If I understand your ideas, I think the real problem is all the choices that linux users, including Mandrake users, get with the distribution. There are too many for the average user just coming of off winflows. A quick and simple install is difficult from that perspective. So, perhaps a "reduced" version of Mandrake would actually be better for what you are proposing. I don't know the legal ramifications of this. The other issue that people bring up to me, people who have never lived outside of the world according to Billybud, is the root password. Users get glazed eyes when I ask them to supply a special root password for their new system. A system without root pass will get broken. It may be that we simply need to market secure linux better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aRTee Posted March 28, 2003 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2003 Choice is never the problem, as long as you enlighten people about how to deal with it. Some comments on a piece of paper will do for that. My girlfriend never had problems, I just told her: click here or there, it will start this or that problem. Nothing you can't put on a sheet of paper. Mandrake has this great menu: "what to do", it solves almost all these problems of Too Much Choice, that other distros solve by taking away choice (hated RH8 for that, trashed that partition for mdk9.1rc1). Same for the root password, just tell them to write it down, when to use it, etcetc. I mean, everybody has passwords to go on the net, for email etcetc. But you're right, it has to be sold as a security feature, instead of annoying extra work for the user. "- no virus scanner needed, intrinsic security (security from within, howabout that one for a slogan) -- because linux uses the root account approach!" But I'm still not sure on how the install would be easiest.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aRTee Posted April 26, 2003 Author Report Share Posted April 26, 2003 I guess I should RTFM... Just had a look here: file:/usr/share/doc/HOWTO/HTML/en/Clone/introduction.html pretty good stuff. Goes to show, you are (I am) never too experienced.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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