To developers: how about scripts?

[Guest Dr Bill]

I am not a developer, not a programmer anymore, not hosting a website nor a large lan, just a desktop user. I want to be able to use my keyboard, mouse, SATA drive, display and TV capture cards, play games (I'm sorry, forget about using Linux for gaming), etc. with no hassle. I've been using Linux distros (about 10 so far) for the last several years. Every one has had quirks I've had to learn to overcome. Granted there are some consistencies due to kernel consistencies. BUT, one thing all that I have tried have in common is that hardware/peripheral configuration is a pain. I know there are umptymillion pci cards and peripherals out there and no one, except Microsoft and the providers themselves, should be expected to provide installation software.

 

I've been perusing Linux user/help forums for many years and have been struck by the lack of what I'd call a "teaching" approach to resolving problems. With very few exceptions, responses to problems we simple users have were not answered in a way that the user could 1) understand the processes involved and, 2) execute a series of commands or script that would solve the problem. Seekers are often referred to generic background articles which don't help unless you're committed to learning the whole shebang and the responses are often a bit condescending and self-aggrandizing.

 

To use XP I have to understand very very little. I've read several Linux books and, at one time, could do most anything in Linux. Since I'm a "user" (and rather old), I forget allot of that stuff after a couple of months and don't want to relearn the procedures.

 

So, for whom are your distros? If I buy one and want to install MythTV and ivtv for my Hauppauge 350 is there someone to provide me with a script for your distro? That's all I really need. I don't want to be referred to some generic site! What about a script for my MS Wireless Desktop Elite and Intellimouse Explorer 2.0? Is that what the subscriptions are for?

 

Thanks, a frustrated desktop user who's just been disappointed by another Linux distro.

 

[moved from Tips & Tricks by spinynorman - welcome aboard :)]

[jboy]

So, for whom are your distros?  If I buy one and want to install MythTV and ivtv for my Hauppauge 350 is there someone to provide me with a script for your distro?  That's all I really need.  I don't want to be referred to some generic site!  What about a script for my MS Wireless Desktop Elite and Intellimouse Explorer 2.0?  Is that what the subscriptions are for? 

 

Thanks, a frustrated desktop user who's just been disappointed by another Linux distro.

Dr Bill, I am struck by how clear and well-stated your post is.

 

And I am hoping that someone here will have a satisfying answer for you.

 

But as just a regular user, probably a lot like yourself, my comment is that I would love to see you post this message at an official, company-sponsored forum such as the Mandriva Club Forum at http://forum.mandrivaclub.com/viewforum.ph...16f8ab178cda312

 

By suggesting this, I certainly do not intend to put you off. I sympathize with you. But you must realize that this forum is a group of volunteers who out of linux spirit are donating their time to network with other linux enthusiasts and help one another out as best they can. This board has no official affiliation with Mandriva.

 

When you say "your distro" and "if I buy one" you have to realize that you are not talking to offical Mandriva people here. These are all volunteers. Many of them are developers, I'm sure. Some of them may even be developers for Mandriva, I don't know, but they do not speak for Mandriva. They speak for themselves as volunteers.

 

That is why I suggest that you take up your issue with Mandriva directly through their official Club forum.

 

That said, I am optimistic that many of the highly experienced linux people here will try to help you as best they can, but please, you have to realize they are doing this out of linux community spirit and not as a paid employee for which you should expect commercial satisfaction.

[Ixthusdan]

 

I agree whole-heartedly with your disappointment. And I also think that Mandriva and other producers could do a better job at addressing the issue. But, that just is not the whole picture.

 

Two big things make this linux world different. I in fact believe that all the differences can be boiled down to one of these two points. They are security and Microsoft.

 

The reason windows is easier is because of its lack of security. I wish the world were nicer, but it jus isn't. Point and click is not secure. How do you think attacks occur so easily? If I can just do stuff on my computer without any sort of root permissions, so can some stupid 13 year old in California do something on my computer without root permissions. permissions is everything. Microsoft has rightly deduced that people would rather have rampant attacks and "easy" computing than to be safe and actually own their own software.

 

the reason windows is easier is also because they monopolize the industry, including hardware, to the extent that they will try to intimidate manufacturers of hardware not to write drivers for anything but their product. Imagine a software company running all hardware as well. That is what Microsoft means when they say "safe computing." Yes, a lot of people, most not making a dime, write the code to run the hardware that Microsoft wants to be exclusive to. Sorry about the obscure sites for information, but that is where the guy can afford to post what he knows about your hardware. It's really tough to go up against a monster like Microsoft, but it is happening. Sure, it's slow. But the odds and the deck are stacked against us, yet we still prevail.

 

I don't have a comfortable answer for you. It just is not a comfortable situation. But, clearly, it is not fair to totally place the blame on linux folk. We are the ones keeping tech open and creative and available to everyone. And we value your input, unlike the monster. B)

[bvc]

Hi Dr Bill,

Billy here

I understand your frustration, but I do not have a comfortable reply either.

 

Scripts just are not going to happen. That would take a lot of time and $

 

I used to use this 'teaching' approach. After thousands of these type post for the same 40 questions, I got burned out. I then proposed our FAQ. Was great. Now out of date. Even when it was great and updated I can see that it was too easy to just link to it. Makes it easy for people to think that if they didn't understand a FAQ they were somehow inferior or stupid, and then afraid to ask...huh? I've often wondered if it was such a great idea. Especially since it is not updated as it should be. Sounded good to a burn out though :D

 

I don't see the 'Club' as an answer...why do you think people come here? However, I do think you should tell mandriva what you think. Can't hurt.

 

Win is not easier because of its lack of security. It's easier because

1. it is usually what people use when they first learn how to use computers

2. it doesn't have a lot of different extensions and filetypes for a user to learn several different ways of manipulating. Pretty much point and click. Default filetypes are pretty much setup for you, or you are asked at install, and if you wanna change it, it's right there in the preferences of the app you want to handle that filetype/extension, not some half hidden, obscure preference within a subsection of a main section in a desktop envionments control panel somewhere.

3. Just like in win (nt kernel), lin is more than capable of installing and running and entire app fron within a users directory structure. Are we asked in lin? No. So, you either have to have root privy's or get, and install a tarball to your home directory, and setup a shortcut to run the new app. Not user friendly and Linux is bad, very bad about this. It is an area that can easily be fixed, yet isn't. Wonder why?

 

So, the only thing left is hardware and not much can be done about that overnight. It will take a major colaboration of many distros and a lot of $ and marketing to properly release a polished, professional product that is usable and still secure. It is very possible and is in fact already done by apple. Usability does not, in anyway, sacrifice security. That is a myth. If and when this product is released as 'Linux' and not some distro, hardware vendors will take notice and only then begin to consider linux as an alternative solution. Of course by then, mac will be on intel arch so..... Until then, developers that give of their personal time while they hold down full time jobs can not provide the hardware support in linux the world needs.

Edited August 6, 2005 by bvc

[Guest Adriano1]

I agree with the "google it yourself" ideal mostly because it tends to create users that are a bit more intelligent and knowledgeable about what they do. I mean, 70% of Windows security problems are because users don't want to do anything, or care. I don't want those problems in Linux, so I want users that learn and think for themselves. A script is all nice and good, but it sometimes favors a copy-paste approach I don't like. Of course, done the right way they're a good alternative.

[devries]

Mythtv + ivtv: Mandriva comes with the ivtv driver precompiled. You can configure it with the Mandriva Control Center (look in the tips & tricks forum for my howtos) Mythtv: with urpmi the installtion is done in 5 minutes. Configuration will probably give you some problems since it will be the first time you setup a pvr. Have a look at my howto in tips & tricks. If you have questions feel free to post 'm.