gmac

Thanks that's a big help. I have a lexmark at the moment that i assumed, since they are ex IBM would be compatable with linux, teach me tobe more careful. Good printer but the cartridges arefairly expensive at £14 for a refill

good quality print? this is for business use so the presentation matters,

I need a laser printer and one compatible with bith windows and Linux, Samsung look a good bet, says on box compatible with linux and so far as I have been able to glean does work OK but anyone personal experience?

As a commercial distro Suse wins hands down... the packaging, delivery and the fact you get the DVD and CD set and amd64 (CD and DVD) makes it a lot cheaper than the same for Mandrake....

My personal opinion is I hope Suse go out of business before they pervert liunux any further but the Novel buyout makes that unlikely. Im all for lots of choice but Suse seem not to be... it seems YAST and the strange way its configured are all to prevent users ever changing distro....

Interesting point. I am leaning towards suse for my server simply because it seems a more commercially orientated product and I need one that is going to be around plus I can get local technical support if I need it. I would try building my own computer and have done so with somebody watching but I need to get up and working. As a business user there is a limit to how much time I want to spend becoming an It expert. On the other hand this forum is great which tends to make mandrake attractive for that reason alone. Initially I bought one of the mandrake box sets and found the manuals etc from a newbies point of view completely underwhelming and little use. I had a very basic problem setting up the software that evenually I got sussed with the help of this forum despite some numpty telling me to RTFM which was a bit difficult as I couldn't get beyond initial set up.

From a purely personal point of view I want a commercially successful linux distribution that I can depend on. From a small business point of view any alternative to windows has got to have access to something like the range of manuals etc you can get with windows or if necessary some method of training staff.

In a way linux has quite a good business model, try for nothing and if you like it buy it with more bells and whistles if that's what you need or keep the basic and keep playing. I also need to make sure I pick a file format for storing scanned files and other information that will still be accessible ten years from now. kind of rules out ms office

It's a different concern when you are planning that far in advance future proofing comes in to it a lot.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/microsoft/Story/...1291057,00.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/microsoft/0,2759,178712,00.html

US anti trust law is a lot tougher then european, hopefully the ec commission will stick to its guns.

Let's be fair about it. The Windows firewall is just blocking a lot of the ports that those apps used. No wonder they don't work the same. But this is good security practices. We can't have the cake and eat it, complaining about MS lax security standards and bashing them for implementing tighter security.

Maybe I'm cynical but for microsoft to offer a service pack that effectively emasculates comptitors products does not suggest they have their customers interests at heart. I suspect it is a ploy to keep you binning and upgrading your computer.

Norton Antivirus 2003  2003  Symantec

Norton Systemworks 2003 - GoBack Personal Edition  Other MS  Symantec

Norton Systemworks 2003 Professional Edition  2003  Symantec

(they are now incorporating their own) CD writer,(I have Nero should I now bin it and use the MS version), office suite

Office  11  Microsoft

Office - Power Point 2002 (German)  2002  Microsoft

Office Access 2002  2002  Microsoft

Office System - Power Point  2003  Microsoft

Office XP Access  10  Microsoft

Office XP Professional Excel 10.0 SP2  ---  Microsoft

Office XP SP2 - PowerPoint  11  Microsoft

Office XP Standard  10  Microsoft

Outlook 2000  9  Microsoft

Outlook 2002  10  Microsoft

Outlook 2003  11  Microsoft

They are even screwing up their own office suites should you now buy the latest office version for £450?

For someone that does not work in IT but works with it that little lot is a nightmare it means you either learn it for yourself or pay for IT support because unless you spend a lot of time poking around your computer no longer works and you don't know what you did to it because all you did was download a service pack because you trusted microsoft and really you didn't know you had to buy a whole new computer and replace all the software. Did all these products suddenly become useless or is it deliberate?

At least with linux there are forums like this where you can trawl for knowledge and learn what is going on, you try knowing you will have to learn, but you do with windows anyway but all you can do with windows is shove it in and hope it works because you are screwed if it doesn't.

If that was me I would have to replace my antivirus, firewall, office suite aargh!

I have no idea why Wine is bundled. Nothing seems to work properly under Wine. I certainly wouldn't trust it to be stable enough to work on important documents using it to get to office software or even to check my email through it. It seems to exist just as a selling point for people leaving Windows. To me, the existence of Wine is a milestone that marks the failure of Linux development to truly offer equivalent, alternative software.

Try the office suites like open office or star office they are streaks ahead of MS office, at afraction of the price you can afford to try them. If you have to you can save in word format or excel, whatever even the presentation suite can be saved as powerpoint if you are using it on different computers. Try getting MS office to do that or open and save in anything but MS office.

Use PDF files? open office has a pdf writer. Have a look at pdf.com if you want a free pdf creator for windows.

Most of the IT guys I know don't get the point about the office suites they work on computers not with them. I need software that can open anything not just a narrow range of file types MS office is too expensive and just not as good.

artic, that last post of yours just gives even more reason to stay away from XP who needs the hassle. who needs to pay through the nose for the hassle.

My wife just bought a laptop with XP- trip to shop return home, installed norton systemworks after spending most of day trying to connect to internet found out the problem was windows and norton systemworks not being compatible. second trip to shop refund and exchange for macafee apparently, they PC world, are having dozens returned. MS office £450, however as teacher she gets to use the school copy, MS has such a grip she can't accept that SO works just as well cos she knows microsoft only works with microsoft although she now knows the problem is not that other products are inferior but still getting her to change women.

Somehow it was all my fault-home is where you hang your head.

Was having serious problems with windows always crashing and about the cost of MS office and was complaining to an IT client of mine who suggested linux and mandrake, did some research found this forum and decided to try, found the office suites and it gets more appealing all the time.

I think there are two almost distinct markets.

1) Gamers and music buffs that want PC's to play games or download music.

2) Business users that are looking inceasingly for more sophisticated computers to do more & more.

Microsoft I think are increasingly losing the plot as they fight to keep the status quo and are forgetting about the end user. Bill gates was slow realising the potential of the internet and then wipes out the competition by giving the browser away.

They missed the significance of music downloading and compete by designimg programmes that don't work with rival media players rather than by offering a quality product. (hey I'm no expert this is just my opinion). They miss the point about gaming and bring out X-Box expecting people just o buy it because it was theirs

Their office suite is crap and are trying to get people to use office by making it incompatable with rivals. Every time they upgrade office and make it unworkable with previous versions they antagonise business users needlessly and make them look round for alternatives. Its all right for home users they can make do, businesses can't and it is annoying!

How many do you think this has pissed off?

http://www.pdfzone.com/resources/tips_tech...Fzone_tips.html

Businesses need some kind of common file format for sending documants that is accepted everywhere. Good for microsoft lets screw things up, its either deliberate or just thoughtless. That same website has articles on MS and how anti PDF it seems to be. Again I am no expert I just want something that works.

need an internet browser, an email client, a media player and some cool games that work!

open office is all that i personally would need, for anything i want to do, so i wouldn't need koffice or gnome office.

So do all businesses. They also need more sophistacation that a simple spreadsheet so you find yourself learning how to set up databases and use them to control the business. A lot of people don't realise they are doing it but anyone sending out invoices or mailing clients is using one. I can spend £100 per month for the licence for a tailored client control system and be tied to the provider or do it myself. which I ended up doing, not because I enjoy it but it's an integral part of my business.

 

Same with any kind of forward planning system. filofax man has gone the way of the dodo.

 

There is sometimes a need to be able to do powerpoint presentations, sure you can get them done for you but for a small business thats all extra expense, and IT consultants want to overelaborate to justify their fees. (OK I'm a cynic no offence intended to any IT consultants reading this, since this is a linux forum you are obviously not rip off merchants)

 

Mobile technology. Not a gimmick, I will be using this kind of stuff in another year or so as an essential part of what I do. In myu particular industry my competitors who don't get to grip will bedome increasingly unprofitable and lose out.

 

My point in all this ramble is that wherever Linux goes being as versatile as possible is what will let it survive. Think of it in evolutionary terms, the generalist always has a better chance if things are changing. Microsoft has stopped adapting and is now reactive rather than proactive and is more interested in locking people in than providing. Bloat may be bad but you can always thin down. (Some bloat in scanning programmes would be good.)

 

Things are changing very rapidly, ten years ago this forum could not have existed.

 

That article I used above- MS just srewed an essential part of what he does how likely is it that the indivual is going to interested in an operating system that doesn't present him with those kind of problems? Or a nice alternative to MS office that inclides a pdf writer like star office.

 

I get the impression that a lot of users of this forum don't get the point about office suites because they don't use them. MS office is microsofts main source of profit, if they lose that to a rival they are screwed.

 

It's a comfortable prison as well but MS keep spoiling the comfort zone and don't even know they are doing it.

Which fly by wire planes do you mean?

The A320, They have beem in use for 15/16 years. I didn't realise Boeing had finally caught up with the technology.

IX we can potentially go the same way we have a monopolies commission that is intended to prevent too few people controlling things but there is quite a strong lobby that would like to see it done away with in the name of free competition. The BBC is publicly funded (no adverts, hooray) with a mandate to present both sides of a debate and is supposed to be objective in its reporting hence it usually falls out with whatever party is in power since most politicians don't like criticism. Rupert Murdoch and his ilk have to compete so any qualitative differences in programmes reporting or bias really stand out.

Actually I started poking around US paper web sites, its an interesting cultural adventure, shame about the spelling

http://www.guardian.co.uk/microsoft/Story/...1261139,00.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/microsoft/Story/...1258193,00.html

Just out of curiosity does anyone know what computer system is used in fly by wire jets?

Microsoft saw a potential market and grabbed it now they are trying to keep it except now they have competition, they more they knock linux the more people will ask what it is.

There is nothing wrong with linux but I think those who would see it mainstream and want to make a living out of selling their services need to think more about who would use and will be likely to buy in the future. Take a lesson from microsoft and go for fresh markets rather than head butt the big guys. It's not about Linux its about what you want the computer to do and what potential customers want.

Most of the IT professionals I came across never ask how do you use your computer, they concentrate on what they want to sell and forget who they are talking to. Prattling on about thin client servers and wireless networking means nothing to someone who wants his or her half dozen computers to be able to talk to each other and have the rep at the other end of the country being able to get his e-mail, its also patronizing. Tailor your language to the audience, they are not stupid just not as interested in computers as you are.

Remember that if Linux were only a single Distro, then Microsoft would have destroyed it by now. The seeming 'Chaos' of Distros and such, is the great Strength of Linux, cause everyone has different needs

That's very true I think. Microsoft wants everybody to adapt to them rather than adapting to their customer. Bad business strategy.

My perception is that now the vast majority of computer users started using Windows and Mac with either Win98SE or even WinXP and have probably never heard of DOS or command lines, and would still be frightened by them if they heard about it for Linux.

I think you guys forget just how recent the advent of desktop computers is and underestimate how it is changing the workplace. It's becoming an all pervasive tool that everybody needs and needs to be familiar with, even the guy stacking the shelves is using one instead of writing up stock sheets. (I do not mean anything disparaging by that just the simple observation that instead of writing out sheets the info is now entered on a hand held computer) its only recently that such technology has been viable.

Microsoft was the first and undoubtedly the success of the pc is down to them but they will pay the price of being the first as they take their market for granted. They used to think about the end user saw a potential market and went after it. Now they see their customers as a cash cow and try to prevent them having a choice rather thinking about what they want.

What is wrong with Linux is that they are not planning ahead to who the likely end user is likely to be. For a distribution to be commercially successful it has to look at the end user.

Business users are everything from large coprporations to one or two man businesses. The biggest growth sector -at least in the U.K. is the small to medium enterprise who start out using, guess what desk top computers and then get to the point where they need a server, networking, mobile computing and so it goes. If you don't believe me have a look at the smaller companies indexes not just the footsie 100. (or the american equivalent).

It's the same with games, catch the kids and you have a customer for life. If linux is no good for games then they are ignoring a large part of the market and more importantly future users and decision makers.

Ten to fifteen years ago a lot of now senior executives were still at school or college and would be vaguely aware of computers leaving them to the nerds, go back another ten or fifteen years and you are talking about people who remember black and white televisions. Even five years ago doing business on line was so frustrating that most people wouldn't bother.

I think its the same for business users, the big boys are already sown up and its a moot point whether it is worth the time and effort going after their business, go for the smaller guy and grow with them.

I suppose the real problem is how do you do that and still retain that which makes linux special.

I received 111 spam e-mails today, normally it's only 60-70. My understanding is that most come from just a few sources. How come these guys seem to have no trouble with viruses etc shutting down their servers? Maybe we should be taking security advice from their IT people.

Symantec recomends you to use IE?

Not exactly. I got a message saying they could not check my computer because of the browser I was using and that I should use IE. I switched, got the security check carried out and that told me my computer was safe-I have zone alarm free download installed.

I presume either they cannot read my computer because of the browser or they want me to use IE. If the first that suggests the browser is reasonbably secure so why should i use their products, if its the second then why should I use their products if they only work with a browser I now use on the odd occasion, apart from that it rather suggestes that they want me to use IE so they can sell me their products.

I use Norton utilities which I find invaluable and was favourably disposed, tried macafee equivalent but that wrecked my computer. I find it absurd that I should have to buy a product to detect and correct faults in the operating system and without which my computer regularly becomes unusable. It also annoys me that with IE you need tp buy programmes to stop pop up adverts etc. It's like buying a car and finding out seats are an add on but air conditioning is free to make you feel like you are getting a bargain.

Yes in Scotland you can buy cars with air conditioning. Like most sensible people I don't bother with such luxuries i just open the window. Three speed heater fans now they are really something worth having.

I shall have a look at Opera, now I have broadband all these things are easily accessible. If I can access tye sites i currently need IE for then goodbye IE.

I use mozilla and IE with wondpws 98. In mozilla went on to symantec web site and did the security checNorton has been recommended to me as the firewall to get- I got a message telling me they couldn't work with my browser, switched to IE and the check came bask as O.K.

My question, does Norton only work with IE or somethimg? Since I use Mozilla most of the time there is not much point me getting it otherwise. Incidentally I have zone alarm installed which seems to work well with mozilla.

I have recently installed broadband so security is now a bit more crucial to me.

Also, I don't understand why Mandrake charges for the 'Definite guide to...'; if it helps people get more out of their system and stick with Mandrake, they should just include it in the box.

hear hear! especially with the power pack, it feels a bit of a rip off as one of the reasons I bought the power pack was because I wanted a manual. I was expecting the kind of tome you get for windows. Having said that designing a manual for newbies must be incredibly difficult as they range from needing basic primers to more detailed text books.

Sorry I misunderstood. I have been disparaged on this very forum for lamenting the lack of manuals. As people point out there is a computer based manual with md which is great if you have the thing working in the first place and know where to look and what you want to know.

If you don't know the basics manuals are incredibly useful to begin with, sure you quickly outgrow them as you use the system think of it like a reading prmer, once you can read a dictionary is useful up until then you don't even know what it is.

Interesting review. I have been dithering about between the two. I tried suse 9 on an old laptop with cd's from a linux magazine. I also found the installation worked better than MD which i always problems getting the monitor to work. As a business user rather than an IT type person I am more interested in getting things working than playing about with all the bell's and whistles. I don't actua;l;y want to spend all my time playing with computer unless I have to. I will until I get it doing what I want then I start to lose interest.

In a similar vein the crappy manuals you get with the MD box are pretty useless unless everything works properly at the installation stage. I also bought the definitive manual which was not much better. I'm quite capable of working my way through and getting things to work, which I did, I just found it irritating at the beginning. I am told that the manuals with the suse pro version are good but haven't seen them yet.

On the other hand windows is difficult for the first wee while till you get used to it so learning another operating system is not that difficult. Sad as it may be it's the office suites that interest me, every time I get disheartened I look at the cost if I were to use Ms office and realise that for the same money I can get a whole spanking new computer with linux on it and all the office stuff I could possibly want and have change.

Actually i would rather keep what I have and buy a new mountain bike but I suppose i should prioritise sensibly.

that's when you tell them that they're sites can work perfectly well with internet explorer AND all other browsers. you don't necessarily have to sacrifice compatibility with IE to have it work with others.

The thing is I expect IT specialists to know that as a matter of course, anyone interested in computing at any level should be at least aware of linux but it's surprising the number of "IT consultants" that profess ignorance or are disparaging. I'm no expert but I would have thought it would be a relatively easy thing to do. Actually as the internet is used more and more for e-commerce I would have thought the security side would work to th detriment of IE. As someone that is required to register for a data protection licence it is slightly more than academic. If I am legally reponsible for the security of the data on my computer and yet am dictated to as to what browser I use who is actually responsible?

from the article

Second, if your bank (or e-commerce site, or whatever site that matters to you) doesn't work with Firefox, email, call, and write them (all three can be an effective combination) and, in a polite tone, inform them that their site isn't working and ask them to fix it.

Tried that typical response is "they have to design the site so most people can use it". or we know there are better but our bosses insist on internet explorer.

http://management.silicon.com/itdirector/0...39120142,00.htm

What a twit! How can he justify that to himself, having played an instrumental part in switching Munich to linux is he going to go back and say it was wrong and microsoft was better? Give him sic months and he will be out of the industry if he doesn't produce for microsoft what linux company in theior rught mind would have him back?

http://www.pdfzone.com/news/1225-PDFzone_news.html

Adobe pdf stuff now needs a MS passport...

There seems to be a bit of a war with adobe and ms as well. You can download free PDF writers and star office now comes with an adobe reader and converter. Security is a big factor in which one will win out. Remember the Hutton inquiry and the word document that had been altered?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/microsoft/Story/...1233786,00.html

Its not the operating system its the software and what it does that people buy. What they can't develop microsoft buy and use it to take out rivals like oracle. If you have a rival suppled with MS servers why bother with an alternative?

The author in the first article misses the point (I think) windows as an operating system may be sold at a loss but it is the whole package that MS sell and then tie people to their products. One easy to use package. the fact that there are better doesn't really matter it's convenient like macdonald's, its almost lifestyle marketing.

Forget Linux initially push the alternative office products first that's the real trojan horse (good topical reference or what?)