arctic

Arctic, seriously, you are starting to sound like a Luddite who has had one too many cups of coffee with a Minimalist.

errrm... maybe you are right. i had lots of coffee these last days.

in that case, turn off your computer, leave your house, go off into the woods, start a fire, and hunt your food with wooden spears and spearheads shaped from rocks while living in a cave. because, from your point of view, everything except those things is "bloat".

okay, i am going out now and walk into the woods. good idea anyway. ;)

this is truly strange. i have flux 0.98 on my box and do not have any probs. and the wallpaper-thing... you can add the path to the wallpaper in the theme-file (simply edit it with kate or something similar), so it will be there on every startup.

Whether you or I agree on whether or not it's useful to us, the need is there in the real world. We don't have to agree on how useful these things may be -to us-, because what is being discussed is whether or not the need for them exists - and I know for a fact it does.

 

Like xbob points out, you're trying to change the industry to meet your very basic needs, when many others are in need of the power and "bloat" which you denounce as "useless" (IYO, that is).

well, you say that this necessary bloated stuff is necessary. if it is so necessary, then tell me, why hasn't it been necessary for the human race in more than 10000 years?

imho, this "need" for bloated stuff is nothing else than a bad reflection of our real needs. we tend to imagine that we need things that we really don't need, but as others might find it useful, we need them too, although we don't see the point in adopting certain things.

in other words: if everyone thinks that others think that they have to wear hats because they can't exist without hats, then we too would wear hats because we feel it is necessary, because we want to live... although we really don't need those hats, but we do not see that because we are trapped in some kind of maze. yes, this is somehow philosophical and psychological, but i think, we are becoming the victims of the wrongly produced imagined needs in our minds that are a wrong reflection of other peoples imagined needs.

i have currently the newest firefox version installed and i must say, not all themes work with .91. if possible, stick with .9 version as .91 has several bugs in it. e.g. it won't let you define a starting-website via preferences menu (you can type in e.g. www.google. de but try to hit the ok-button. ). i always recommend sticking with .x0, .x2, .x4, .x6 or .x8 versions of firefox.

but I find the newer technologies are needed and do in fact have advantages. Home computers are no longer just internet stations and word processing units. They're musicals studios in a box. graphic creation stations and gaming platforms.

okay, here we are at the point of personal preferences where further arguing will lead to no solution. you might find them useful, i (in parts) do not them useful. :)

 

QUOTE(arctic @ Jul 25 2004, 05:06 PM)

why do we need java and subsequently java-plugins? or flash? (don't start a flame-war with me now ;) )

 

if you don't want 'em, don't get 'em,  :P

yeah, but then i can't see some websites :P

you do realize that a lot of the usage is just cached RAM, which is freed when needed?

yupp. but even so... open office eats lots of ram, same does mozilla.

What strikes me with these low RAM distros (Vector Linux and Libranet) is that they run IceWM by default, where other distro's run KDE or GNOME by default. So I suppose that does make quite a difference.

sure. vector linux is a lightning fast linux-system without much "bulk" in it and as it shall be as fast as possible, it doesn't use kde or gnome or other de's that need lots of ram (kde and gnome are the most ram-unfriednly de's). you should keep in mind that vector (which is based on slackware) is not intended to be a newbies distro, as it is somewhat more tricky to configure vector.

oh, one thing... i wouldn't try to install kde with mandrake on this comp. use windowmaker, flux or blackbox along with icewm and a smaller word processor (e.g. latex). kde will use up nearly all of your ram. ;)

sounds like a faulty drive

i agree. something with the laser must have been broken.

streeter, i must admit, i am deeply impressed how smart and easy going you handle these networking things in musb. hats off. you are a real networking guru. :)

I'd have to disagree. You make it sound as if people who are more advanced in Linux won't use GNOME or KDE. I don't think this is true.

i didn't say that they don't use gnome or kde. i only stated that advanced linux users are imho more willing to (or less afraid of) configuring the smaller desktop environments that don't have a click&violà icon-windowdeco-qt/gtk-theme support.

Arctic, it strikes me that one paticular program has sent you off on this chain of thoughts, what program tipped you over the edge on this topic?

okay, the first program is the good old internet browser. anyone remember the sizes of the first netscape version? sure, they were not that pretty, but they did the job. second: why do we need java and subsequently java-plugins? or flash? (don't start a flame-war with me now ;))

second program was (obvioulsly) word-processing, third program was my e-mail app, fourth was winzip (got bigger without being any different and yes, i switched to freezip and things like that later), fifth program was photoshop (great software, indeed (except the price)), sixth program was *...ahem...* windows in itself and then i got a bit frustrated with the ram-usage of linux.

Programs have become bigger because they have more features.

nope. did i mention winzip? ah yes... i did. and my email-program? ah,... too.

i agree, starting with a networking problem is one of the hardest lessons to start with for any newbie to linux and me, too, i was quite frustrated first and i really didn't know how to use the command line. but after some months, trying to working with linux, i finally adopted and began to love this os. just as everyone else who now uses linux, i think. sure, you have to learn a bit, but i must also point out that there is lots of newbie-material on the net caring about adopting to linux. one, e.g. called "complete idiots guide to linux". okay, stupid name, but it helped me with my first steps.

as you might have seen, we do have a lot of howtos in this forum and elsewhere on the net. if you encounter problems with linux, try to use these. remember, you can always have a dual-boot with linux and win on one harddrive, so net access is still there via windows until the linux-problem gets solved. but i also have to say that networking problems in windows are sometimes even more frustrating. i do remember the time, when i switched from dial-up modem to adsl-modem, i was one whole months without net-access because the bloody thing that kept me out of the net was a somehow strange windows registry entry and it took the computer experts of my internet-supporter several weeks to find the bug. my linux connection was nearly painless (my only problem was a broken cable).

one final statement: yes, sometimes, people answer in a "crippled, encrypted, mystic" languace with isp, cli, ifconfig etc., but if you don't understand the things they say, just ask. we all started as noobs and not knowing something is nothing to be ashamed of. :)

i suggest, check your cd's, maybe they are a bad burn. i also once had a set of cd's which seemed to work okay until the comp tried to install packages and told me that the cd-rom could not be found.

at boot prompt try this:

linux splash=quiet vga=normal

at konsole-prompt first use XFdrak in order to reactivate your gui. it seems to have been somehow disabled. with mcc (mandrak-control-center) you can set up under system → display manager the login manager you want to use. afterwards you can configure e.g. kdm or mdm for auto-login, if you really want it.

hi.

i am not an expert, but i will try to help nonetheless. :D

do you have your firewall enabled? if yes, try to ping without firewall enabled. if it still doesn't work without the firewall, post your ifconfig eth0 results.

ooops, i did something stupid.

i wanted to delete an old icon-theme in my /usr/share/icons/ library yesterday, but i accidently deleted the /usr/share/icons/large/ folder too and i noticed it today. now, mcc won't start, telling me:

[root@localhost fms]# INTERNAL ERROR: can't find /usr/share/icons/large/drakconf.png

MDK::Common::Various::internal_error() called from /usr/lib/libDrakX/ugtk2.pm:608

ugtk2::gtkcreate_pixbuf() called from /usr/lib/libDrakX/ugtk2.pm:1654

Gtk2::Banner::new() called from /usr/sbin/drakconf.real:599

any chance to get the folder back into place? urpmi doen's work because my update sources can't be reached without mcc.

blackbox is way easier to configure than fluxbox and it is absolutlely minimalistic, thus great if you are tired of aqua or plastic like design. if you want to play around with your settings, yes, take fluxbox, enlightenment or fvwm2 (i never really managed to get that one configured properly). and if you want the ultimate low-fi desktop, take mwm or twm. nothing that distracts you while doing your work.

the plus of gnome, xfce and kde is obvioulsy that they can provide someone who switches from m$ to linux with a somehow familiar surrounding. thus they are great in order to win persons for linux-distros and they are the beginning of the exploration of the linux distro itself. the more the users get involved in linux, the more they will want to try other de's and fiddle around there.

i think the normal evolutionary way for users in de-usage is kde/gnome, then xfce/windowmaker, followed by blackbox/afterstep and fluxbox/enlightenment/fvwm2 (plus some other, less known de's).

are your bios settings still the same, that is the way before you took out the hd? maybe they got changed automatically. take a look. ;)

i also thought so, when i started with linux, but if you look at some programs, i doubt it. i think there must be a way to make the packages even smaller. if we look e.g. at the size of computers today, compared to the 1970's, they are very small, have even smaller data-storage equipment. why didn't get the coding of programs get smaller, too? :unsure:

maybe it has to do with the different programming-languages that are basically somehow similar in their approach (correct me, if i am wrong here, as i am no professional programmer). ain't there a way for a more compressed language than c, c++, python, etc.? i think this could help both programmers and users alike (although it would surely be a whopping task to develop a new language again and implement it in linux ).

you can run mdk on a 64mb ram machine but you have to strip it down a bit. no "toys", reduced number of apps/processes running in background. and use fluxbox, icewm or blackbox, as they are fairly small.

i suggest using http://delilinux.berlios.de/ for such an "old" comp. it comes with icewm and full working office suite. :)

but it's this bloated technology that makes it all possible

okay, it is this "bloated technology" you say. i state that this "bloated" technology is not really necessary, if we would provide users with even smaller programs, more simplistic programs. but we would have to define "bloated" first in order to start a deep discussion.

:D

don't get me wrong, i personally like an eye-catching desktop/os, and when i really feel, i want something more simplistic, i switch on blackbox or the like. but i seriously ask myself, why programs that do not really do more than e.g. word for dos did, take up 100 times more hd-space today than they did fiftteen years ago, without adding anything really new? word for dos used some seven megabyte on a 100 mb hd (which was an extremely hd for that time). now look at todays word-processing programs. ~70+ megabyte hd space and 64 mb ram minimum. this is a bad joke. not everyone is willing to buy (or can afford) a new comp every two years in order to keep pace with technology. okay, that is the way that business is, i understand that (every company wants to sell processors, hd's,...). but: why haven't we been able to augment an applications capabilities/abilities while reducing its size at the same time without giving up on stability?

CANON Canoscan LIDE 30, works via usb-port. 1200x2400 dpi, 48 bit input, printer/scanner/copy-function.keys.

installing and operation works flawless.

costs round about 70 €

might be a stupid question, but did this happen only with mandrake cd's or has anyone of you plagued guys experienced the same problem with other linux-distributions? i always use a knoppix or other live-cd (suse-live, mandrake move, ..., full list can be found at www.distrowatch.org) first in order to see, if this is really a problem of the distro-cd (bad burn or other software related problem) or if this is a hardware problem. if you have a linux-live cd, try it first.