Gowator

did you try playing about just using tail -f on /dev/input/eventX to see which keyb is which?

I'm gonna see how I go, but perhaps I'll disable acpi for the time being. That way, when I shut down, it'll stay at a halted screen, and I can manually power off. Right now, because ACPI is enabled, it attempts to shutdown, but the machine actually just resets for some bizarre reason.

I say give it a break :D I know its annoying but you would probably be more productive just using the power switch and have another go in a week.

You might get used to it.. do an update again and find it suddenly starts working .....

I am willing to bet that almost ALL of you who say you have no troubles installing Mandriva 2007 are not using SATA drives.

When an OS will not really even start the install from the DVDrom then it is a sick OS. I can assure you it is not a burn problem or such like corruption problem of the DVD, I have checked all that and situation was exactly the same when I tried the earlier release versions of 2007.

 

I just had a look at the latest errata and there isn't anything vaguely resembling the problem.

 

Cheers. John

i bet some of them are :D but I am equally willing to bet that there will be a fix and those SATA drivers that work now will probably not work once its implemented :D

If its working on 2006 though how about just updradig by URPMI? Course you might want to consider iof you actually gain anything useful inthe upgrade?

Allright riseringseeker, and Gowator

I do not want to exclude myself from using a terminal, its just that I have problems using it.

My problem is this: The way my mind works, I can not remember the syntax needed and confuse everything. Therefore I prefer using the MCC and whatever other graphical tools are available. Mandriva has the best graphical tools of all the distros I've tested since about mid 2003, and thats why i am using it.

 

You are not alone there. I too sometimes do things I do not intend to do because of ill formed syntax (i.e. scp'ing or rsync'ing files to the wrong directory). If there is a task I think I will have to do over and over (rsync'ing to a usb drive as a backup method for example), I write it down so I can have reference to it the next time I use it.

 

Yep I keep a file called useful.txt and everytime I find something cool I just paste it to the end.

You can also use the history file on the CLI and look back and find things you did ...and the bonus is you have all the syntax and just need to change a few variables like DIR or FILE name

Also, I have mainly learned what I know of how to use the CLI by searching for what I need here, or in linuxquestions, or just linux googled. (You probably know this, but if you do not, there is a linux specific google page that is invaluable - http://www.google.com/linux )

Again excellent and of course you can copy/paste the commands. In KDE you can use konqueror for the man pages... just use man:/<command> in the address bar.

Over the time that I have been using linux, I have come to have a love/hate relationship with both the CLI and the GUI/Wizards. I love the power of the CLI, but like you, sometimes have difficulty with the syntax.

 

The GUI/Wizards are an entirely different problem, not all the options are available with them often times, and they will overwrite my changes sometimes without any input from me, causing loss of what little hair I have left when trying to track down what I did wrong, then finding I didn't do anything wrong, just did not shut of this or that wizard from "correcting" my changes.

Im not known for liking the Wizards in Mandriva.

Its best to seperate them from the GUI tools because they work entirely differently. (I'll explain)

On the whole a GUI tool configures a know application... or device .. say mounting/unmounting ...

whereas a Wizard tends to be task oriented... like "Share Internet connection"

Its not entirely obvious that the wizard just goes ahead and changes stuff and installs stuff you didn't expect and hence when its finished don't understand. Hence when Wizards don't work they often leave a mess ...that you have no idea how to fix. A GUI config tool in my definition just configures an app or device so you can tell which files its editing and if it goes wrong check those files... or use a different tool.

Because Mandriva makes such a big thing about the Wizards it tends to remove other GUI configuration tools from install groups so you have to install them manually.

When helmut complains about not having root access he probably needs to install some of these "optional tools" .... I was using Debian so I looked in synaptic the Deb package manager for gnome and disk ....after installing the minimalistic Gnome (about 80MB) and found the tools I needed to do this from the GUI.

Take note I did not have the MCC at all... nor any Debian equaivalent and deliberatly didn't use any KDE tools I had installed....

I really don't want to elaborate this or get in any argument, but let me you give a more specific example:

You are logged in as "username" on a Gnome desktop. You have added a drive or partition to your box in FAT32. You want to create a link to that drive or partition on your desktop. You have trouble using a Terminal, and you can not log into the desktop as root. But you can log in as "username" and open the MCC with the root password.

I had never even seen a gnome desktop until yesterday. I decided I would try to take a look at it, I was that bored, having to sit in this hotel with nothing to do for 119 hours. I installed it, though I doubt I installed everything that a regular gnome user would have, being unfamiliar with it.

Yep, I spent a little less time but :D I was pretty new to Gnome not having used it for more than 10 mins at a time since Gnome 1.. and Gnome2 is considerably less controllable (as a n00b to the desktop).

In my KDE desktop, there is a folder entitled "Devices", and any drive that I add just automagically shows up there. Having effectively 0 experience with gnome, I am not the guy to ask.

Well, here's the bottom line... and Im not trying to start a flame war on WM/DM's but I find Gnome is pretty unfriendly (edit: At a above basic level).. of course I have bags more experience with KDE but Gnome seems to by default want to control everything...and prevent you doing things ... I found nautilus was opening a new window on every directory for instance....and Im sure it can be changed but didn't bother BUT like I say it was the most minimal gnome possible so I missed a lot of config tools... but even then the workflow is more linear in gnome whereas in KDE its like you have more options to do things different ways???

(Really Im trying not to start a flamefest)

How can i say.... basic Gnome use is simple ... my dead cat could probably use it.... but there is a quantum step between that level and being a gnome guru.... its more down and dirty or nothing???

With KDE its more complex to start but progresses more linearly IMHO .. you have seemingly infinite ways to change things .. if you want you can make your screen and mouse cursor the same color and loose the mouse... but what I do find is configuring the middle stuff is easier in KDE... you don't need to make that big step to editing config files (or when you do its from the options of the application and invisible) ...

I think if you don't want to use the CLI at all then KDE is probably simpler.

I also think you tend to learn more earlier in KDE...because of the messing about in mid-level stuff?

Like I say, Im biassed because I have used KDE for a long time but still.... I'd consider using KDE over gnome for not needing a CLI...

Sounds good

As I said I think you will need to have recognizably different keyboard models. All of them being PC105 would start having those issues. You would need to buy something like a 102, 104, and a 105. It has to be recognized as a fully seperate model upon being recognized for what I am suggesting to work(I think.) That may only be the way I understand current X to work, but I have a friend who has that working with 2 keyboards, but they are recognizably different(to the OS), and that may be the key.

Is I guess where

Option "Device" "/dev/input/event0"

comes in....

However having one PS2 and one USB should help identify them ....

It might need some poking about in the modules, perhaps adding an alias so they are always loaded as the same thing? In theory it looks good ... but probably takes a fair bit of experimentation..

After having Fedora Core 5 on my machine, I don't know what happened, but now this isn't shutting down correctly either.

 

Seems I installed an update that screwed it. Gonna try Fedora 6 when it's finished downloading in the next 24 hours.

 

Will I ever get another distro to work on this machine, or should I just go back to Mandriva 2006? I had no problems whatsoever with this version, and seems if my hardware being 5 years old is a problem for newer distros, then there's not a lot I can do.

ianw, didn't you change the bios?

How about putting it back?

I guess your also a bit fatigued, any chance of just stepping back for a couple of days ?

Yeah I know the comp will be the same but you mifght look on it differently and spot something you are doing or over looking ?

Mifan, its difficult to give a brand and give it the all clear because some models just have different components

Equally many are quite generic inside ...

Any with Intel graphics seem good right now with Intel making a big push from OpenSource graphics drivers.

You can check the support here http://intellinuxgraphics.org/documentation.html

The same for nvidia, check the support at http://www.nvidia.com/object/linux_nforce_..._supported.html

and the same for the graphics.

Things like card readers and built in stuff can be hard to be sure....

The best way is to know someone with that laptop or take a live CD and ask to try it.

Equally get the model number and do a google search...

A friend had a Dell which was a complete disaster for linux using defaults but after about 1 hr research I found the drivers for the widescreen and settings to make it work native, Wifi and all and got it working 100% in about 1hr.

Equally I never fouind a decent driver for my laptop S3twister ...

Anoher idea is check out vendors like www.keynux.com who sell pre-installed laptops

If they can make it work then you can :D you don't need to buy from them just check which models they sell.

Allright riseringseeker, and Gowator

I do not want to exclude myself from using a terminal, its just that I have problems using it.

My problem is this: The way my mind works, I can not remember the syntax needed and confuse everything. Therefore I prefer using the MCC and whatever other graphical tools are available. Mandriva has the best graphical tools of all the distros I've tested since about mid 2003, and thats why i am using it.

 

I really don't want to elaborate this or get in any argument, but let me you give a more specific example:

You are logged in as "username" on a Gnome desktop. You have added a drive or partition to your box in FAT32. You want to create a link to that drive or partition on your desktop. You have trouble using a Terminal, and you can not log into the desktop as root. But you can log in as "username" and open the MCC with the root password.

 

To create that link, you would probably

- first unmount it, probably using the partitioning tool through the MCC.

- change ownership of the drive, maybe change permissions.

- create the link and put it on the desktop.

 

Logged in as "username" you can call up the MCC entering the root password, but what could you do then? Would you expect an average user to be successful at creating the link? I don't think so, but please correct me if I'm wrong.

Cheers,

Helmut

OK, I detest Gnome (simply bewcause it makes these things so hard) but I just installed it ....

My USB disk was already mounted .... but I just unmounted it.... so its not there. I don't know any tools and have no MCC·...and Gnome is minimally installed so most tools are not available.

I notice I have nautilus .(file manager).. so I start nautilus as a user....on my system this lets me umount the partition???

This is probably because I set it up with user mounbt in the fstab....

Anyway I can also use the Desktop/Administration/Disks tab in the Gnome top menu

... (gtkdiskfree) if Mandriva don't slect it for install.

To edit the fstab I just can start nautilus as root (if this involved editing a file in a protected directory it would be easier since I could navigate that directory but I could stick as a user and then go to /etc and select fstab manually and then choose other application and type gksu gedit )

I choose a directory and open with another application

I choose custom command and just type

gksu nautilus

I now have a nautilus window running as root and ANY application started by it will also be root .. this includes gedit as default editor so now when I double click it opens the file in gedit as root.

[Meanwhile it seems having to select other and typing gksu nautilus is a bit tiring so lets just create a shortcut on the desktop

I just click on the desktop and create the Create Launcher and use "gksu nautilus" as the appllication ... now when I click this I get a nautilus session as root...]

So off to see my /etc/fstab ....

Choose open with text editor and I have a text editor opening it as root ...

I add a line for the disk

/dev/sda1 /media/sda1 ext3 defaults 0 0

/dev/sdb1 /media/sdb1 vfat umask=000,shortname=mixed,quiet 0 0

(and a vfat one too. )

BUT If I create a shortcut as root I will have to edit the permissions .. so why don't I create the shortcut as my user? Thus skipping all that hassle and work?

There is no need to do this, you are just over complicating create the link as a USER....

I can create a shotcut simply by right clicking on the desktop and create launcher

I call it CF card and add Command=nautilus /media/sdb1

leave the Type as application and select a big red apple as the icon

Now clicking on that icon gives me the FAT partition of the Compact flash card.

Much simpler than messing with permissions etc.

Which is why I keep saying unless you know what your doing messing with a file in a root GUI is likely to mess stuff up. Even running nautilus as root will create files with root privs hence use it ONLY for opening an editor etc.

Another simple thing is create a GEDIT icon on your desktop. Just use gksu gedit as the application name...

p.s. All of this would be simpler if you had done it as a user to start out and hadn't mounted the drive...because the permisisons were all created as root and FAT needs special mounting options for permissions.

aRTee... are you saying you can still play videos even though it has no WM?

I actually gave up on XGL for now because I lost the projector .& my GF would go mad if she didn't have the big screen :D .. didn't try too hard though.

You can have 1 and only one core keyboard... btw

Most of what I wrote was based on doing the opposite, ie having several heads and a keyb/mouse on each ...

Google seems to have lots of info on this.way.. but using more than one keyboard is done everyday by laptop owners with external keyb's... obviously a WM that takes control of the keyb is going to mess stuff up so with KDE you would have to remove the KDE keyboard tool thingy..... but overall everything seems to be there to do this and I intend to try myself...

Allright riseringseeker, and Gowator

My problem is this: The way my mind works, I can not remember the syntax need. Therefore I prefer using the MCC and whatever other graphical tools are available

This doesn't mean anything

ALL GRAPHICAL TOOLS ARE AVAILABLE REGARDLESS OF WHO OWNS THE DESKTOP (who is logged into the GUI)

I REPEAT

ALL GRAPHICAL TOOLS ARE AVAILABLE REGARDLESS OF WHO OWNS THE DESKTOP (who is logged into the GUI)

Just say what you want to do.....???

Give me a single thing you can do as ROOT logged into the desktop that you think CANNOT be done any other way or needs the CLI.

I still don't see what you wish to do without a CLI that can't be accomplished without logging in as root.

 

No, I do not run the system logged in as root, and I do not want to wreck it either.

 

OK, again then, what do you mean by logging in as root, if here you say you are not doing so?

If indeed you are logging into from the login prompt as root, what tools do you believe this gives you that is not available any other way? Give me some examples, please. I bet (though it would be a pain, given your apparent fear or loathing of using a terminal) that I can get anything done you wish without having logged into an X session as root.

This is the whole point...

Instead of complaining that the system BY DEFAULT doesn't allow a root GUI login give some specific examples and then people can tell you HOW to do what you think is not possible from a GUI.

There are several things that can only be achived by a CLI/terminal but these are not things most people would stumble into by accident and in fact are items that would not be available on Windows or evenon Mac OS-X without using the root account. I might also be wrong in some of them that GUI tools DO exist... however riseringseeker makes a good point ... why set yourself the limit of building a house without using nails or screws?

Is it possible? certainly but the type of house you can build is limited by the tools and materials you allow yourself to work with.

If you are trying to make a Linux supercomputer cluster with 128 nodes then its extremely possible you will need a CLI.... then again since those nodes have no X server this is hardly suprising but this is not what the average noobies is trying to do...

You've used the term '"basic" graphical mode' twice now, is there an "advanced" graphical mode I am not aware of?

This might just be the root (pun intended) of the problem.

In Windows you have different tools when logged in as Administrator.

This simply DOES NOT EXIST in linux.

Linux is a true multiuser environment, this is how it is designed. XP is not.

Hence in Linux there is nothing that cannot be done in a GUI with root privelidges given to that process THAT CAN be done in a GUI logged in as root... and to give that process root privilidges all you need is the menu...

I am not saying there is nothing that can't be done from a root terminal that cannot be done from a GUI... I am saying that logging into the GUI as root confers NO BENEFIT whatsoever over logging in as a USER and using sudo in graphical mnode to achieve the task and there are hundreds of things that can be messed up very easily by logging in as root.

But no, thats not the point! A challenge: Try to set up a system that is just a little complexer than the average system without using a terminal and without being able to log in as root, and you will see what I mean. It just is not possible!

More complex in what way?

Again, just be specific....

The only common thing I can think of which needs using the CLI is installing the nvidia driver from download. This is nothing to do with mandriva in so far as they don't give you that file.. nvidia do.

Now if you mean it should come as an install option I agree.. and I think mandriva leaving it out of the FREE edition is just plain dumb... but having a root GUI does not help or hinder this in ANYWAY...

Between using the MCC and other easily available and installable via GUI tools you can do almost everything you could possibly need via the GUI logged in as a user.

Yes you will need to type a password.... (unless you turn this off) but so far the count stands at zero for things that can be done as root logged in through the GUI .. and it will regardless of any task you say can only be achieved as root because that is the way linux is designed however if you actually make a list of what you think needs GUI login then peope can provide you with the correct alternatives.

Let me explain it like this....

I have supported hundreds of people on *nix and linux professionally.

I have never needed to run X as root .... not once EVER.

If I need to edit a config file I do so with sudo ... and ANYTHING that can be done from sudo can be done from kdesu or gtksu graphically.

This includes changing file permissions and more or less everythig I can think of....

Usually when doing simple on site support I use the GUI because the person who's computer it is is usually sat in front of the keyboard so I just use the mouse and one hand to tap the odd letters I need (like passwords)...

In many cases it takes longer than using the CLI..but that doesn't mean its not possible to do it without.

You can even install the nvidia driver from a GUI.... its longer and more complex than from the CLI by a long way but it is still possible without using a terminal once.

You can just paste this into any GUI editor and save as nvidinstall.sh

#!/bin/sh

#Totally untested on mandriva .. edited to prevent need to run from terminal but still need to restart x with #new driver, dynamically reloading the nvidia driver.. this may hang if nvidia driver is already installed.

#depends on perl, bash, test...

#to use sdave to home directory as nvidiainstall.sh

#to run use run menu and kdesu ~/nvidiainstall.sh

#Feel free to modify... no warranty inferred and no guarantee it won't trash your system.

#

if test -z "`lspci|grep VGA|grep -i nvidia`"; then

echo Error: No nVidia VGA adapter found.

exit 3

fi

if test $(id -u) != 0; then

echo Error: You must be root or su\'d to root to run this script! Start kdesu <path-to-script>/test

exit 4

fi

INSTALLED=""

[ -e /bin/bash ] || INSTALLED="yes"

if [ -n "$INSTALLED" ]; then

if test -n "$DISPLAY"; then

echo Error: running in X, X will be restarted at the end of the script

fi

else

if grep -q unionfs /proc/mounts; then

echo Unionfs found.

else

echo Script uses unionfs Activate Unionfs to use script.

fi

fi

#VER=1.0-4620

#URL=http://www.sh.nu/download/nvidia/linux-2.4/

#VER=1.0-5328

#VER=1.0-5336

#VER=1.0-6106

#VER=1.0-6111

VER=1.0-6629

#VER=1.0-7167

#VER=1.0-7174

ARCH=""

[ "$(uname -m)" == "x86_64" ] && ARCH="_64"

URL=ftp://download.nvidia.com/XFree86/Linux-x86$ARCH/$VER/

PKG=0

PATCH=0

HACK=0

FW=1

#Get the nvidia package, download and UNPACK-ONLY

cd /usr/src

[ -f NVIDIA-Linux-x86$ARCH-$VER-pkg$PKG.run ] || wget -Nc "$URL"NVIDIA-Linux-x86$ARCH-$VER-pkg$PKG.run

rm -rf NVIDIA-Linux-x86$ARCH-$VER-pkg$PKG

sh NVIDIA-Linux-x86$ARCH-$VER-pkg$PKG.run --extract-only &>/dev/null || (

rm -f NVIDIA-Linux-x86$ARCH-$VER-pkg$PKG.run

echo NVIDIA-Linux-x86$ARCH-$VER-pkg$PKG.run could not be extracted

echo and has been deleted. Please restart this script.

exit 1

) || exit $?

if test "$(kernelversion)" == "2.6" -a "$PATCH" == "1"; then

wget -Nc http://www.minion.de/files/NVIDIA_kernel-$VER-2.6.diff

fi

#steal lalsa to stop it being broken

if test -f /etc/modutils/1alsa; then

mv /lib/modules/extra/alsa /lib/modules/`uname -r`/

rm -f /etc/modutils/1alsa

# update-modules

fi

#Find the dm for login will need to be restarted

if [ -n "$INSTALLED" ]; then

DM=`cat /etc/X11/default-display-manager 2>/dev/null`

DM=`basename $DM 2>/dev/null`

if test -z "$DM"; then

test -e /etc/init.d/kdm && /etc/init.d/kdm stop

else

test -e /etc/init.d/$DM && /etc/init.d/$DM stop

fi

fi

rmmod nvidia &>/dev/null

rm -f /lib/modules/`uname -r`/kernel/drivers/video/nvidia.*o

cd NVIDIA-Linux-x86$ARCH-$VER-pkg$PKG

if test -x usr/bin/nvidia-settings; then

rm -f /usr/bin/nvidia-settings

rm -f /usr/local/bin/nvidia-settings

cp usr/bin/nvidia-settings /usr/local/bin

fi

if test "$(kernelversion)" == "2.6"; then

if test "$PATCH" == "1"; then

cd usr/src/nv

patch -p1 < ../../../../NVIDIA_kernel-$VER-2.6.diff

ln -s Makefile.kbuild Makefile

cd ../../..

fi

else

# fix NVIDIA's stupid error in Makefile

perl -pi -e 's/"\$\$\?"/"\$\?"/' Makefile

fi

[ "$(uname -r|cut -d- -f1)" == "2.6.10" ] && perl -pi -e s/pci_find_class/pci_get_class/ usr/src/nv/nv.c

if [ "$(uname -r|grep -E '2.6.11')" != "" -a "$VER" == "1.0-6629" ]; then

echo Script will not work with kernel 2.6.11 and Nvidia 1.0-6629

fi

if test "$FW" = "1"; then

perl -pi -e 's/(NVreg_EnableAGPFW =) .*/\1 1;/' usr/src/nv/os-registry.c

fi

CC=gcc-$(perl -pe '($_)=/gcc.[Vv]ersion\s(3\.\d|2\.\d+)/;' /proc/version)

if test -e /usr/bin/$CC; then

make install CC=/usr/bin/$CC IGNORE_CC_MISMATCH=1

else

make install IGNORE_CC_MISMATCH=1

fi

cd ..

rm -rf NVIDIA-Linux-x86$ARCH-$VER-pkg$PKG

rm -f /etc/modutils/nvidia

perl -pi -e 's|.*char-major-195.*[\n]?||' /etc/modprobe.conf

perl -pi -e 's|[\n]?$|\n|' /etc/modprobe.conf

echo alias char-major-195 nvidia >> /etc/modprobe.conf

#update-modules

#backup xorg.conf

if ! test -e /etc/X11/xorg.conf; then

cp /etc/X11/xorg.conf /etc/X11/xorg.1st

fi

#Edit the xorg file to add GL, DRI etc. also copy stuff from backup

perl -p -e 's/^[\s]*Load\s*"GLcore"/#\tLoad "GLcore"/;

s/^[\s]*Load\s*"dri"/#\tLoad "dri"/;

s/^[\s]*#*[\s]*Load\s*"glx"/\tLoad "glx"/;

s/^[\s]*Driver\s*"nv"/\tDriver "nvidia"/g;

s/^[\s]*Driver\s*"fbdev"/\tDriver "nvidia"/g;

s/^[\s]*Driver\s*"vesa"/\tDriver "nvidia"/g;

s/DefaultColorDepth.*/DefaultColorDepth 24/;

s/^[\s]*Option\s*"sw_cursor"/\t#Option "sw_cursor"/;

s/^.*IgnoreDisplayDevices.*\n?//g;

s/^([\s]*Driver\s*"nvidia")/\1\n\tOption "IgnoreDisplayDevices"\t"TV"/g' \

< /etc/X11/xorg.1st > /etc/X11/xorg.conf

test "$HACK" == "1" && rm -rf /usr/lib/tls

ldconfig

sync

if [ -n "$INSTALLED" ]; then

if test -z "$DM"; then

test -e /etc/init.d/kdm && service dm restart

else

test -e /etc/init.d/$DM && service $DM restart

fi

else

modprobe nvidia

/etc/init.d/xsession restart

fi

Try

# Only listen for connections from the local machine.

Listen 127.0.0.1:631

Listen /var/run/cups/cups.sock

=

 

Listen 127.0.0.1:631

#Listen /var/run/cups/cups.sock

 

The second prob is the test page doesn't work for me... I wasted a lot of time because I figured if the test page isn't printing then its not working.... WRONG.. ??? weird but I just tried from kwrite or something and it worked even though the test page didn't.... (once its set up)

AFAIK the best way to set up cups is through the cups admin... (except the test page) so I would try this and then stick to one interface for configuring it.... if you try different ones it just gets confusing :D

Hi ..2007 sure is a dog ... my beef is worse .. but 2006 is cool. Plus my machine isnt known for its simplicity. What really pissed me off was the non-free driver garbage - even though I had all the INTEL ATI etc, on my 2006 DVD/CDR could not get them to talk to each other ... ROOT is another big issue .... I have been dressing my self for a while now & dont need mamas permission - besides shes dead ... so give me back my root.... I have been running boxes as admin from day one - screw this typing crap at every turn. I dont do that under W2K/XP !! All I want is a box that works ... I love the pioneer-bit in all of us, but dont make me pay more for less. Xandros did that to me also & lost me .... I actually liked Xandros - nice easy stable desktop ... but it always whined & whinged about letting me do anything ... could never get 3G to work on that sucker .... but on a 450Meg Pocket Rocket I was firing on all 3G cylinders in 10 min. Its of course a great pity that XP is finally really running like a bandit & SURPRISE - they bring out VISTA ... HOO BOY !!!!

NB Sony Vaio A290 1GRAM 110G HDD 802 B/T DVD ATI Memory Stick, alles inc kitchen sink - couple things dont work, but same-old under XP ....

Cheer up Lads .... we could be sitting on a hill of sand & rocks nowhere ....

BR>Pete

Having a box that works and running a GUI as root are mutually incompatible.

Is 2007 a dog? Well its certainly looking that way ... is the driver issue garbage yes... but NOONE HAS TAKEN AWAY THE RIGHT TO LOG IN AS ROOT....

That is simply incorrect either through your ignorance or because you don't care if that box runs the next day. Changing the kdmrc file take a few seconds.. just don't compain when you trash your system ..

However why not just boot directly into X as root? You obviously don't give a rats ass about your system getting screwed so just replace the dm script with startx ... that way you boot directly into root with no login.. or you can just set the root password to null. passwd -n

Alternatively just run a liveCD.... if all you want is a box that runs....

the part that esacpes me is you say you just wants a box that runs .. yet you obviously want to mess with it or it wouldn't keep wining and whinging .. you need to decide if you want one or the other.

its your box .. do with it what you will

Just a few thoughts about things not working with a new version which were working with the previous. First as I've read from some people in other forums, mainly hup.hu, who actually saw the kernel source and knew what they're looking at, things can change quite a lot in the Linux kernel even with minor version number changes.

The other thing is the developer team which become smaller. Just imagine you are developing a distro you have to put a lot of new things inside, check it works with new hardware and you should check it upgrades the previous version and it works with the older hardware etc. and you have a deadline. What will you do when that deadline comes closer and closer. You take for granted what was working before.

It's all IMHO af course.

Nope I agree the problem is that this is historical... it keeps happening with mandriva/mandrake so at some point they shoulde have realised sacking all thier developers is not a good thing for development.

Unfortunately they got rid of the experienced ones and their lead developer who remember what happened in previous releases and so all that knowledge is now gone.

Meanwhile the continue to focus on cosmetics... they managed to get all the crap like the start Star and translucent backgrounds and wasted a lot of developer time trying to get MCC working... and even more developer time hacking applications to not interfere with the MCC ...

Its just my 2c but if they dropped MCC doing things which are done perfectly well and usually a lot better elsewhere they could concentrate on core functionality.

Why for instance waste developer time making a theme manager for KDE?

Hey mandriva... KDE provides one...

....and each time things change then the whole process of changing the MCC stuff has to be redone.

Why not just provide a stub to the relevant KDE CC module from MCC instead of reinventing the wheel (badly)...

It might actually be working BUT the test page isn't.

try configuring wothout the test page and then just try selecting the printer.

However, also try

editing out "Listen /var/run/cups/cups.sock" from /etc/cups/cupsd.conf

(just add a # in front)

(you can do this from the cups config at localhost:631, choose admin and type root password etc. then choose edit config file)

Hope that helps....

Sigh...people will never learn I guess...

 

http://forum.club.mandriva.com/viewtopic.php?t=55562

 

Anyone want to place a bet on how long it is before the originator of that thread is back asking for advice on how to fix whatever he mucks up running as root?

I like the sig in the guy on the club

Tout choses sont dites deja, mais comme personne n'ecoute, il faut toujours recommencer.

Everything is already said, but if someone doesn't listen it always needs to start again...

The warning that comes up SHOULD BE ENOUGH.

Yes it should but obviously it isn't.

People are hardened to warnings like that... from "Danger the serrated edge on the hand towel dispenser are sharp and may cut you" (wow its a serated edge you don't say) to "warning do not insert toothpicks in your ear" ...or "warning boiling water may scald" ...

We see these everyday on every consumer item and I don't know about you but I don't really read them.

This is why microwaves have a door detector which makes sure the door is closed but this hasn't stopped various people defeating the mechanism and cooking themselves nor even trying to dry pets in the microwave.

Furthermore you don't need a root login in the login manager to login as root... but perhaps most importantly you don't need to login as root at all. On the other hand Mandriva also sell the distro to companies and having dangerous defaults is a big turn off for the companies. If you are installing 200 installs then you don't want to have to correct 200 seperate kdmrc's ... sure you can automate it but just by doing this mandriva is producing a "non professional" distro. Moreover each time kdm is upgraded (and this is an importtant thing to keep currect because of the huge security implications) they would need to edit the kdmrc as well.

Step back and imagine being in this company and an employee has 20 logged attempted root logins.

You are in charge of IT security but the employee says "but I just pressed the wrong user on login, it shouldn't be there if Im not allowed to login as root but I didn't mean to anyway, I just clicked the wrong user"

This is somewhat different to actually editing kdmrc (which needs a root password)

The bottom line is that people don't on the whole understand the security implications. The reason not to run as root is not only because you can destroy your filesystem but that you are giving the whole world root privelidges to your box without the need for a password.

I never ment to use the root for web browsing, video games etc. It is just A LOT easyer to config ur computer.

Again I don't see how its easier.... still noone has given a single thing that cannot be done from a user login that can be done from a root GUI login.

What would be more constructive is people actually saying what they think is easier or even impossible without a ROOT login.

Im sorry to say but until someone does then it sounds like "Im too lazy to look for the proper way to do this".

meanwhile

We didn't say Mandriva should enable it by default, but that it should not be hidden so deep in a file.

or

"there is a lot you can't do from the CLI that can be done as a root login in X"

Is complete and utter FUD. There is quite a bit that can't be done without the CLI, mostly advanced stuff but quite a bit all the same (creating obscure filesysytems with non standard defaults etc.) but there is absolutely nothing that can't be achived from a CLI that can be achived any other way. Just saying this shows a complete misunderstanding of linux.

ABSOLUTELY everything that you do in the GUI generates a CLI command, whether you see it or not.

Given the warning is not enough then the bottom line is no linux experts want to use a root GUI, most advanced users don't and most n00bs probably don't realise. So we are left with a minority of people who for some reason want a root login for the GUI because the last version did?

This indicates to me that they did not find the correct way of doing things... why.. as crash damage says the last time he logged in as root was the first time he used linux.

I have run X as root a long long time ago...when just getting X installed was a major hassle but we are talking RH5 or Slackware 2 here where X was an optional add on, not a modern distro and after wading through files and docments .. I finally got X to work and started it as root...

I still occaisionally do it for a second .. if I startX from a CLI when messing about with something deep in the OS but I immediately kill it.

Those who feel some deep need for this as a login are missing something....and that something is the correct way to do X,Y,Z and time would be better spent working out the way to do X,Y,Z than berating Mandriva for doing something that is actually in the interests of 99% of its users.

I'm just guessing but I think the most common problem is probably configuring X with the closed source graphics drivers. Do I think Mandriva should do this ..? Yes (and it doesn't affect me since I only run mandriva in a vmware session) but this would help lots of n00bs get up and running. The excuses for this are equally FUD, mandriva says its not possible for liscense reasons but do so on the powerpack edition.

In reality its to get people to buy the powerpack (IMHO) ....

Please berate Mandriva over this.... berate mandriva for hacking the KDE CC so that many of the tasks to do as root are harder or require a different method and even for hacking KDE to make it difficult to get rid of that stupid Start Star and backgrounds ... but don't berate them for doing something reponsible nor sticking the kdmrc file where it is meant to be.

The plugin directory is probably different in Mozilla and the installer puts it into a firefox one?

Alex,

Often the problem is when the keyboard itself is a hub. I had exactly the same probs and switching to a near idenitical keyboard but with no hub in the keyboard it worked...

Scooma:

Good points but I think what you miss is that linux seems to compete across distro's by throwing in unneeded bells and whistles. They throw stuff in so users discover it IMHO... because if its not installed by default they think another distro where it is will be better received?

Boot time is singualrly unimportant to me, its something I do 3-4 times a year max.... but there are plenty of ways to speed it up significantly. (On laptops it can obviously be a real pain)

First off you can if dual booting reduce the bootloader choice time... and stop any services you don't use.

This makes a fair difference especially on unatended boots (like getting a coffee)

Also inside the /etc/init.d many services many of the services have very log sleep times...

Obviously in some cases its for a good reason but

grep sleep /etc/init.d will show some have very long sleep times...

Many of these can be safely reduced also on laptops the DHCP timeout is often very long. If its not plugged into the network this can be a pain so setting this lower can help.

While we are on init.d you can also parallelise many of the tasks. There is an excellent IBM paper on this I'll find if your interested OR you can look at initNG

You can also start X earlier in the init process.

Onto X ... xdm isn't pretty but its lightning fast... and switching for a lightweight WM can save several seconds .. you can also if you use lots of KDE apps stick KDE init into the WM's startup script which will then make starting KDE apps much faster under a different WM at the expense of some memory.

If you can be bothered then pre-linking works wonders on app startups, especially KDE.

By the way, with the whole 'no root password' thing - I had no choice but to do this when I installed MDV2007 on this computer. I'm using a USB keyboard that doesn't work in Linux without legacy USB support disabled, which meant that to install Linux, I had to do it with mouse only. No way of typing in a root password there. Of course, I set one up once I got things up and running and was able to do so, but without the option of installing with no root password, I wouldn't have been able to install at all. I agree that it is a security risk to be able to install with no root password, but is it worse than using the GUI as root? There are some cases where you need to be able to install without a root password, but are there any cases where you need to be logged in to the GUI as root?

This is exactly the point and somehow Yankee is using spurious logic to say if one thing is "allowed" then the other should?

Without using exact quotes from above I think I can sum it up.

I said new users do not know all of the commands to do things and a root GUI helps them.

Simply stating it doesn't make it so. So far noone has provided a single thing that is easier in a root GUI than using the MCC or a su'd file manager or editor.

They will learn. I just installed a nvidia driver that hosed the whole thing. My title bars disappeared, the screen went white when I tried to fix that so I clicked where I knew stuff was and it was there, and I tried to change the driver back and said screw it...and did a reinstall of the whole thing.

This exemplifies it exactly ...

1) you are unable to follow simple instructions installing the driver

2) You don't say how you installed the driver... but of you changed it while in X then of course things screwed up...I mean actually changed it not changed the xorg.conf because that is only read when it loads X.

3) Clicking where you knew these files to be (once again you avoid mentioning which files) did nothig to fix it. Nor was a root gui even necassary to "click" where these files were... a simple kdesu konqueror would have sufficed.

4)

I was shooting in the dark and got it back but I am not going to dig through thousands of files to see what is wrong.

All you have is the extra chance of messing something else up...

.............which is exactly what you did.

Had you used the GUI tools provided (although at this point you claim the GUI was all screwed so which was it? However you could have used the MCC from the console too and just changed the nvidia driver to nv, dropped out of X and installed the nvidia driver again. (or just copied the backup xorg.conf file back) which you of course made before installing the old driver?

This whole security thing about a root GUI is NULL...you know what that is don't you???

Nope I know quite the opposite and anyone who understands the basis for the security model in linux does too. Unfortunately it is those who don't understand the reasons that are complaining that they are being prevented from logging into X as root.

Noone is stopping anyone... its 3 letters in one file .. but you don't even need to change anything you can actually do all this at the GUI.

Firstly stop the service dm in MCC.

Login as root at the console it drops you to

startx (or startkde)

.. and there you go.. no changing anything....

... finish what you are doig and restart dm....

What you have decided to ignore with your "Without using exact quotes from above I think I can sum it up." is the fact that root owns the desktop and every process started from the desktop.

Thus every app you run is runing with root privelidges and every web server in the world has complete read/write access to your whole filesystem without needing ANY password because fundamentally firefox/konqueror etc ARE root.

Well I forgot, when you install it gives you the option to set the administrator or ROOT users with NO password so your security just flew out the window!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Again totally spurious...even if the two are equally bad just because of one possibility for poor security exists is no reason to add another BY DEFAULT.

Secondly, BY DEFAULT is what we are talking about. Its equally possible to disable the root password or set it to null after install ... if you know how.

I know, anyone who knows what they're doing would never do that....BUT we were talking about new users who don't know what a CLI is....right??? I do...I used CLI since the old days as in beep-beep and that was your sound. 8 colors and half-bright gave you 16...how about the Amiga? Means friend!

 

I guess you should fix that install (root user) with no password before you complain that someone wants to use a GUI as root.

I am not complaining if people want to use the GUI as root. Just don't expect me to give my time up fixing the mess...

What I'm "complaining" is that people are spreading dangerous FUD .. that there is somehow something you can do logged in as root which is only possible through this. This simply isn't the case and noone has yet provided a single example not only of "only possible" but actually EASIER...

And secondly I'm "complaining" that these people because of their ignorance of the proper way to change something are demanding Mandriva put back a DEFAULT to a dangerous one. This very discussion indicates that many people are ignorant of the actual reasons ... (and they have a perfect right to just use the blackbox, Im not disputing that) but this is a binary option... root login in dm or not... it has to be one or the other ...

Is the no root password a default in install? No.... ? Why because noobies would not realise the importance. The same goes for activating the root login.... its simple to change but the default is the safer option. Anyone who knows what they are doing can change it in seconds but the whole point is noone NEEDS to do this. Equally you could be presented with every user on your system, including mysql or apache at login.. someone has to make a choice on this... and confronting a noobie with all these options is confusing and serves no purpose, just like having a root login.

Again, I want to make this perfectly clear for any n00bs who may be reading this thread and are tempted to do the familiar Windoze kinda thing and run their desktop as root: There is absolutely NO reason or need, not for ease, not speed or any other reason I have ever heard, to EVER log into your desktop as root. Running as root is just a VERY BAD IDEA - period. You are only learning NOT to use some of the best advantages of Linux.

This is worth repeating.... you don't need to understand why ... like everything in linux though you can find out if you wish to but arguing for it without understanding the reasons simply confuses noobies ...

So noobies should think about this... which option do you trust? The person who can't install a graphics driver without screwing stuff up and reinstalling or someone who hasn't had to reinstall in many years.

(If you except trying a different distro and having to reinstall because that distro was insecure)

I don't know any linux or *nix professional who knows more than I do about linux who would even consider running X as root. The only people who do are those where a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Hi Gowater. I don't know if you are joking or not about running the microwave with the door open. If you are not then here is why you can't...

Thanks John and that illustrates why I am so opposed to these posts about root.

The danger is that someone reading the post is going to think "hmmm leaving the door of the microwave open sure sounds convenient" and stick a broken matchstick or something into the mechanism.

People do this because people have interests in dfferent things in life. As a scientist its easy for me to post that as a joke (I mean who'd do that?) but then your post made me think. My mom sure would!

Hence Im going to annotate the original post as well... just in case.

But that's the problem with root login options.... many people will assume it is OK if its presented at a login screen. At least what is likely to happen is people do it before reading about the risks.

The same goes for posting it on forums such as this. When people see others saying "Its OK" or its "more convenient" then they are pretty much more likely to try and end up wrecking something.

(p.s. I expect to visit the tallest structure in the antipodes at XMas or at least be able to see it)

The point is like the pin on the card the whole security system of linux is built around it being multiuser. This is just the fundamental design (unless you use SE linux) just as microwaves are inherently dangerous.

Of course someone who didn't understand microwaves and physics might not understand WHY microwave radiation is dangerous... That is they can know its dangerous but not the mechanism.... for instance they might think its OK so long as they don't stick their hands inside while its on.

I think the point here has been missed. Some of the new users don't know all of the commands to do things and a GUI as root makes it easier.

Even if you want to copy files etc. then you just start a filemanger as root... add it to your menu and it will always be there... same for a editor etc. and if this is just for a one off then why go through ksm/gsm/xdm at all? Just run startx from a root console???

Granted, it is also easier to trash your system but as they say, live and learn. The root user can be hidden and with a good password you should be protected. Anyone who wants to hack into your system surly knows how to elable root login. We didn't say Mandriva should enable it by default, but that it should not be hidden so deep in a file.

So you want mandriva to completely rewrite the login managers so that someone doesn't need to find a single file that anyone who knows what they are doing knows exactly where it is anyway???

The file is where the file is meant to be ...

As I said, when I first started with linux I used the root login to the GUI to poke around everywhere. It made it much easier to find files like /etc/kde/kdm/kdmrc and learn for myself without asking someone where a setting was. I was also able to figure out some of the file system and where programs are installed.

How is this easier than starting konqueror as root or running kommander and switching to root mode?

(The best way to figure out where something is installed btw is looking in the package info for that package. )

Most people don't need NASA strength security because who cares what you have? ANd as I said, a good password (something other than your dogs name) should protect most people from someone sitting down at their computer and logging in as root and using their desktop like a video game!

Who needs a password? That is the whole point of seperate accounts. If you use a browser then I don't need a password because you already opened the connection. This is the whole reason for having seperate accounts .... if X is running as root then X can start any other process as root. If firefox is running as root the same... the can also see and manipulate your whole filesystem... try for yourself, go to a webmail client and attach file ... the http:// server you are browsing has the same privlidges as the user running the browser ... the point being they don't need a password.

If you try something like webmin and use it as root you can add/delete install packages etc. etc. with abandon and NO PASSWORD required .... any website can do exactly the same. (or IRC bot or 100 other things) Im not saying this to criticise webmin Im saying it because this is what can be done from a web browser running with root privilidges.

By the way, any particular reason for the Persian/Tabby mix?

Erm, I didn't choose it, cuddles must have posted under my username. B)

I guess that's my mistake for not locking the desktop.....

You know, Gowator, I was having this discussion just the other day about why my ATM card should need to have a PIN on it. It's such a drag to have to key it in all the time, and I never lose my card, so why should I have to have this inconvenience foisted upon me?

Good analogy.... of course its the people who can never remember the pin whom usually complain :D but lets face it if you can't remember 4-6 numbers then the chance of fogetting the card somewhere seems somewhat higher :D

But of course noone is foisting anything on you.... just cut the card up and use cash :D but I guess if you want the convenience of an ATM card then you have to accept the bank also have to protect themselves.

We could ask why cars have keys in the same way. Ive lived in places where noone would ever steal a car and everyone just leaves the keys in the ignition and while we are asking why do I need insurance to drive... Im a careful driver and never had an accident (well when moving) and if I did hit someone .. well they can sue me for medical costs and damages.

I just find it somewhat bewildering people are ranting about Mandriva protecting noobies at the expense of those who know what they are doing spending less than 1 minute editing a file and restarting X.

However .. it seems that these super guru's who must by definition know so much more about linux than I (since I'd never dream of logging in a root) are viewing this as an impostition against their human rights.

While we are on it who says what side of the road I should be driving on and who put the steering wheel on that side...I prefer changing gear with the other hand

Dear Gowator,

I'm a cross bred Persian/Tabby mix and my owner recently added a root login to his desktop ...

One of the children then changed his password ... can you help me fix this for my master, he is going mad and hasn't fed me since he got locked out. Luckily I found a LiveCd on one of his magazines ..

Yours cuddles

Dear Gowator, Im a linux noobie and reading some of the posts on here it looks like I need to enable root access to the desktop. I followed the editing of kdmrc although I don't really understand how any of this works and then accidentally deleted the /bin directory.

Why does linux not protect this directory, it seems very important since it no longer boots and Im back in Windows again... just as i was starting to get the hang of linux.

Usually you just need to set up the correct device and correct permissions...

You can do this a few ways... the most direct is using the /dev/hdc or /dev/hdd to define the writer or you can symlink /dev/burner (or whatever) to that as well.

For permissions I use a seperate group...

ls -l /dev/hdc

brw-rw---- 1 root cdrom 22, 0 2006-10-19 00:24 /dev/hdc

Thus any member of group cdrom have rw privs to the /dev/cdrom but equally you can set group ownership to a single user as well.

Check under edit/preferences in gnomebaker and see what device name its actually using.

i think it's a whole much easier to be able to run the gui as root, and allmost all apps work as root.

Yep that's just sloppy programming because the programmers rely on the fact people wouln't be so crazy as to run the apps as root. Its a function of misplaced faith in human intellegence.

What linux needs is the same warning you find on lighter fluid or drain cleaner etc.

AFAIK, there is nothing on a lighter refill that physically prevents me trying to microwave it or stick it in an oven. There is nothing on the drain cleaner that stops me pouring it into a glass and drinking it.

There are different nozzles on different fuel types... I guess this just takes away my freedom to fill my gasoline car with deisel, which of course is my right since its my car (although the forecourt is not my property so I should perhaps arrange for a tow truck before I do this).

That warning that shows up when u start the gui should be enough, and who ever is still a newbie who doesn't know what he is doing, the warning screen should be enough. Who ever ignores it, is going on his own responsability. I tryed doing stuff from a normal user, but it's a pain in the A**. For me is crucial that i can run the gui as root, so they should reenable it.

Why should they?

Why don't you start taking responsibility for your own actions and you enable it?

Meanwhile why not campaign for universal gas pumps and see if you can't get all gas pump nozzels to be the same so anyone can screw up their car without meaning to?

While you are at it I have a list of packages not installed by DEFAULT.... this imposes on my freedom ... I want my packages to be installed and no others... ?? While we are at it why doesn't the window manager revert to fvwm by default? I use this so everyone else should presumably.

I also want all the ports setting open by default its a pain to have to open them up manually so people can try and hack me.

What you find convenient matters not one iota to me.

What noobies do to their systems however does or at least should mean something to mandriva....

What people say in the reviews should matter to mandriva.

What I recommend is making your own distro ... call it insecurenux or something

Here is the kernel

http://kernel.org

Here is a suggested compiler, feel free to use whatever you like

http://www.gnu.org/software/gcc/gcc.html

meanwhile you need to find the source code for all the apps that will not run as root and recompile them after editing out the safeguards.

edits:

Incidentally here is what KDE have to say

http://docs.kde.org/userguide/root.html

Using KDE as Root

 

Francis Giannaros

 

For UNIX® operating systems there are often different users, which in turn might have different privileges. The conventional method is to have an ordinary user account, whose files are generally stored in /home/username, and then to also have a root account. The root, or Super User, account has system-wide privileges, being able to modify any file on the system.

 

Although this means that it is easy to perform administrative tasks without hassle, it also means that there are no security restrictions imposed upon it. Thus, a small typographical error or other mistake can result in irrevocable damage.

 

Some of the operating systems that run KDE come with a graphical root login enabled. Despite this, you should never log in to KDE as root, and you should never need to. Your system is far more open to attack, particularly if you are browsing the Internet as root, and you dramatically increase your chances of damaging your system.

Its all possible when you take responsibility for your actions and stop expecting a distro should do every default the way YOU want it and force that on others.

So why exactly should Mandriva follow your advice and not that of the programmers who wrote KDM and KDE?