bigjohn

So what is the suggestion then ?? Is shorewall the best option or is there another that is available - I only ask this because as I said in a previous post, I had some snags with shorewall before and it wouldn't let me access anything, and I had to keep doing an interactive startup and tell it not to start shorewall. I am presuming that I didn't have something configured correctly, but as I suffer from zero linux knowledge (being a former window$ drone), if something goes "pear shaped" i'm usually screwed and have to keep booting back into XP to be able to get any advise as to how I proceed. As usual, any advise or comment is greatly appreciated regards John

OK MottS, I'll give that a try, though I don't quite understand why the pppoe file should cause a prob, as the mandrake is one of the few distro's that support alcatel speedtouch adsl usb modem's out of the box (well, nearly as I have to make sure that I provide the microcode myself and my provider uses BT lines and pppoa as a protocol) but I shall have a play with the adsl start/stop bit. As for shorewall, I had that running before, and I could never get in after disconnecting. I could see the connection running with ifconfig but all I got was unable to connect to remote server. I always had to reboot to get back in. Hence, I would rather fire it up when I want to surf and drop it when I have finished. Anyhow, thankyou for your idea and I will post back when I have tried it. regards John

:?: Well thankyou everybody. I am not entirely sure how I have got it working but I now have sound coming out of the system under xmms!!!! So, to start with, I tried the obvious and as SDMF said, tried the "xmms /mnt/cdrom" - for some reason my mandrake install has labelled my dvd as cdrom and my burner as cdrom2. Anyhow, that got me nowhere. So next I have tried bvc's idea of looking at Dolsons site and I have followed the tutorial - to the letter. But again this got me nowhere. Though it put me into thought mode and as I don't have any digital speakers I got to the bit about selecting the output and have left it as direct audio output instead of telling it to read the cd digitally. That still got me nothing. Now somehow I managed to get a sort of list of options up in the playlist window, and option number 1 is desktop entry. I don't recall whether I clicked that or not, but I got the playlist option dialogue up and although when I tell it to use cdrom2 I get nothing. Somehow, I got a file tree dialogue up and have run down that and under scsi managed to select a file path (i presume that is what you would call it) that points to something about scsi emulation and it's only option was lun0. I seem to recall something about burners often using scsi emulation, so I have selected that and told xmms to "load list", and as if by magic, it has given me the disc track list. And then with the usual "play" clicks I have got the mystical sounds of "Crimson Idol" by Wasp (I saw them live at Donnington in 1992 - along with 84999 other people - a truely wonderful gig if you are into stadium rock!!!!) I have just had a quick meddle with xmms and it appears that the "desktop entry" option points me at /dev/scsi/host0/bus0/target2/lun0 and that is the one that gives me sound. If I just try to load list, I just get the option of cdrom, cdrom2 and floppy to load the playlist from and that gives me nothing. (oh and just to make sure that I'm not seeing things I have stuck a copy of some "slipknot" that my nephew did for me and that's playing ok) If someone could unravel the above and explain to me what I have managed to do and how I would be much obliged. Also, if Santa happens to have a set of 5.1 speakers to augment my soundblaster 5.1 digital card, will I have to follow Dolson's tutorial again to make them work ????? again, many thanks for those hints/tips/ideas regards John p.s. Is it just me or is slipknot's music a bit on the dark and spooky side?

The next in my list of stupid questions is..... I have my dsl connection (speedtouch adsl using pppoa) set up to start at boot. Excellent, it's great, but being a paranoid former window$ drone, I don't like to leave it "always on", so I kill the connection when I am finished (or I boot back into window$ and leave it up to norton AV and zone alarm). If I kill the connection and leave the pc booted into mandrake, I can't get the connection re-established, and have to reboot to start it again. Could anyone please advise me how to get round this, as I am sure that I should be able to go into mandrake control > network > connect and get it back up. many thanks regards John

This is going to sound like a really stupid question, but How in hell do I get xmms to play audio cd's? I have both a cdrom/cdrw device and a dvd player. If I put a disc in the cdrom/cdrw and press play on the front panel button I get sound. I get system sounds as well so things seem to be working. Now, when I open xmms up, I put a disc in either drive and xmms doesn't see that there is a disc in either drive. I have read some so called instructions for xmms and that tells me that I click on the "eject" button and get the dialogue for load files. So I tell it to go to my desktop "removeable media" and try to select cdrom or cdrom2 (I don't recall which way round it is) but I get nothing. So, what do I need to do to get xmms to (a) see that there is a disc in one of the drives and (B) get it to be able to play the music. regards John

Ok sort of understand that I need to add the line /usr/share/fonts/msttcorefonts But I have look round in my files and as root, and I don't seem to have any files called /etc/fonts/fonts.conf /etc/X11/XftConfig /etc/X11/fs/config any idea's please ???? regards John

Well, I seem to have managed to get the fonts into /usr/share/fonts/msttcorefonts, but how do I actually add the font directory to the /etc/fonts/fonts.conf /etc/X11/XftConfig /etc/X11/fs/config files please ? Oh and as for the "X restart" ????? regards John p.s. sorry if this is a cross between grannies egg sucking lessons and pulling teeth (long nosed electricians pliers!) but as an intermediate level window$ using drone, I always figured that I should be able to pick up this linux "lark" relatively easily. WRONG!!! Mandrake - linux, a lot of OS and applications to try and fit into a very small brain (mine!!)

Thanks DragonMage, I'll go and give that a try now and post back as to how it goes. regards John

Righty ho, Milk delivered, and I've just tried the solution as per hippocampe and apart from finding that the fonts file in my windows install in at c:windowsfonts and I managed to get the /mnt/win_c/windows/fonts bit added to my list, I tried "install list" and all that that did was to give me a dialogue box that is the same as when I have tried "get windows fonts". I click on ok for that and it just freezes. So OK thinks me, lets try the next one, and when I tried to follow the link that smoketoomuch mentioned, it started doing strange things to my opera browser. Every time I tried to open the browser, it just kept closing. so I tried in mozilla and managed to follow the link but it means absolutely nothing to me. So I had to delete my opera browser and re-download it. It now seems to be working now. I have tried to follow the advise from bvc but again, I haven't got a clue what it all means, and am reticent about trying to do things that I don't understand as I have had too many disasters. I have absolutely no idea what "texstar" is. The idea about just copying the font files from windows into a linux partition sounds like it should be relatively easy, but again I haven't got a clue about how to do this!!! What should I try next please ????? regards John

a million thank's for the assist so far, I will try an resolve my problem tomorrow, as I am just checking reply's before I have to go to work (another 25 tonnes of milk to deliver!!), then at least I can sit down and have a go at sorting it in an unhurried manner. Just as an aside, my opera (under window$) started crashing inexplicably, so I just downloaded the newest version, which is 7 version 2 (it hasn't reached "rc" status yet) but some of the changes are excellent, so any opera users (window$) should give it a go. It definitely gets my vote (though i'll probably have to vote twice when the updated version is available for linux) Again, many thank's so far and I will post again when I have had a go at sorting my font snag's tomorrow. regards John

Can anyone help ??? I am trying to get rid of the hideous and blocky looking fonts that I have had since loading up mandrake 9.0 I am running a dual boot of 9.0 and window$ XP, I have found various bits of advice about this, like - www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/27788.html which was where I started, also, a howto type document from sourceforge, another one from linux.org.mt and I have posted queries at linxquestions.org (and although someone was trying to help, I could only get so far before my shell prompt f*****d me off). So, as instructed in the linux.org.mt installing truetype fonts in linux, I go to control centre>system>fonts and get the dialogue box, I select get windows fonts, it will get some of the "initial tests" done but freezes before it gets to "copy fonts on your system". Would this be anything to do with my window$ format of NTFS ????? Again, no idea what to do next, I am completely unfamiliar with command prompt and the various syntax/commands needed for BASH. When I look into trying the sourceforge method, it only seems to mention mandrake 8.2 and says something about freetype-tools. Well I have check out the software management/installation in control centre and I can find nothing. So again I can't get anyware. The advice I was given at linuxquestions.org was a basic re-iteration of the sourceforge stuff and although I followed the instructions, I can only get error: open of /usr/src/redhat/RPMS/noarch/msttcorefonts-1.3-2.noarch.rpm failed: No such file or directory. so again I haven't got a clue what to do here. Now the most interesting idea is the link from the register. But I get lost about half way down the second paragraph when they start on about source RPM and building a binary RPM etc etc - but as I say, it looks promising because it is to do with anti-aliasing as well as true type fonts. Not that any of that stuff means much too me, I am only a recently converted former window$ drone, and as a result took all that kind of stuff for granted. Could anyone please help me with this, it might sound petty but I am seriously thinking about dumping linux completely because it is almost unreadable, and what with not really having the ability to do anything about it is very frustrating (as well as being a new "ex-smoker" which doesn't help much!!!!) Any assistance that can be offered would be much appreciated, but could you put it in a really patronising "monkey see, monkey do" format - I've absolutely no idea about what to do with linux Many thanks in advance regards John

As previously mentioned, a lot you people have "prior knowledge" and as far as I am concerned, that's a good enough reason to prefer linux - which ever flavour - my suggestion would be that when a distro is updated, the usual bi-polar install method's should be supplimented with a "total novice" facility that would detect/install all the relevant drivers etc etc. The reason being, that if there is a common install facility of this nature, then it is irrelevant which distro that the n00b chooses. If all the various distro producers had this facility albeit produced by themselves, it would make the linux even more fragmented than it is at the moment like unix was during the rise of micro$oft. It may sound a little "communist" but people only get what they want by sticking together. There are very few individuals or even companies who get to dictate everything that they want. One of the few that come to mind is the micro$oft corporation. And I have a pretty good idea as to what most of you think of them. But, and it's a big but, that is one of the main reasons for their success. It doesn't matter what those of you who do the system admin task's feel, M$ have made most of their money by being easy to use. I appreciate that M$ product's may be a nightmare to manage, but for the basic "user task's" they are relatively easy. This is why I applaud the LSB people, at least they have recognised this, whereas those who insist on "doing their own thing" are doomed to having a small following of enthusiasts. I mean, there are those who argue the difference between rpm and apt, now I can't say which is best, as I have only ever used SuSE and mandrake which both support rpm and the debian apt thing is a bit of a mystery to me. But, I am pretty sure that neither method is perfect, but it is better that having to try and install manually. That would just hinder the uptake of linux. I feel that it would be sensible to get an nice easy "point and click" facility up and running, and greater numbers of people using linux, and worry about excessive development later. With larger numbers of people using linux, the distro producers make more money and end up having a better chance of "getting it right". easy and inter-operable are good enough reasons to follow that route. there will always be a central following of knowledgeable people who want to learn to do it all themselves. Fine, that's their perogative. But if it's easy and inter-operable, then the rest of the user world can get on and do their thing. The easy and inter-operable thing are corner stones of M$ and yet another reason for their success. Apart from changing the home user from using FAT32 to NTFS (which I suspect they new they would have to do eventually) most stuff works on just about any version of windows. Yes, it does have built in obselescence, but so does the car you drive, so does your TV and hifi, so does your mobile phone. That just the "market" doing it's very best to get as much money out of you as it can. I'll say one thing for linux people, because you tend to have greater knowledge of how your machine works, you can usually spot the micro$oft propaganda quicker that "general users". Which can only be a good thing! bradcarter's comment about changing to gentoo, well, gentoo seems to be the "flavour of the month" with a majority of the members of my LUG and they have nothing but good things to say about it, but I would point out that there seem to be some seriously knowledgable people in my LUG (I usually just read the e-mail and leave it at that, I would be too embarassed to attempt anything else, most of them seem to have at least some professional IT experience/knowledge/training! and I suspect that a nugget like me may inject a large amount of impatience on their part, so i'll just stick to asking them for assistance when I get really stuck!) regards John

Again, more valid comments from both Heru and Liono. I have heard a fair amount of stuff about people having window$ based disasters. I suppose I am lucky in that the only disasters that I have experienced are to have run out of cigarettes/booze/coffee when using it!!!!! Heru's comments about his father echo my older brother who is an IT professional and resident linux bore (deadrat). He has said to me on more than one occassion about changing OS, and that if someone had only ever used linux - of whatever flavour - then they would probably find window$ a total pain in the arse to learn. so I suppose it is down to personal knowledge and the way an individual's own "logic circuits" are wired in the brain. regards John

joehill has a fair point, but in my experiences, I have always managed to follow the window$/micro$oft documentation - though I will point out that I haven't needed to use their stuff often because I have found the vast majority of things that I have wanted to do under window$ intuitive enough for even an idiot like me to follow and achieve. And yes, the linux is too hard to use is FUD, well, propaganda at the very least. But it is different. And the lack of appropriate paper documentation can make it seem hard. It's always going to be easier to jump around from page to page than to have to stop whatever you are trying to do and start digging around for the correct help site. Perhaps thats just personal preference??? DOlson is a different "cup of tea" entirely, from what I have seen of the "mandrake experience", is that it's produced using well written/tested tutorials. Laid out in an easily understandable way. I think that someone should make him? a large star shaped badge in gold that has the words, "the wearer of this badge is an absolute f*****g marvel" on it. I cannot put into words, how much I think can be achieved by the linux movement with excellent sites like his. Shame there doesn't seem to be more public recognition of stuff like that.

Thank you, those of you who have suggested idea's for my sound problem. I am still in the dark about it, because after switching between xp and the mandrake 9.0 (with the onboard sound disabled in the bios) a couple of times, it just started working for no apparent reason. Literally, it just started doing system sounds, and I tried a few other things to check it out, and it seems ok. So thanks. emh has a valid point, linux from window$ is enough of a learning curve, but I will freely admit, that I find it a learning mountain, though I feel that isn't just because I am a former long term window$ drone. E.G. installing software, with window$ click a couple of boxes, maybe tick/check some others and in it goes. Yes, I do appreciate, that if it goes wrong, it can be a bastard to sus out - regedit and all that, but if something goes wrong, you can usually just re-install over the top and it usually get's you back into it, even if you have to mess with loads of personal preferences. And none of the "missing dependencies" nonsense. The relativeness of intuitive software, is pretty important for total n00b's like me, because I feel achieving straight forward basic stuff makes you feel like you are making some progress and encourages you to go further and try more stuff. - Well it does me anyway. I have often been left feeling very frustrated when after doing a little reading/research, I try something and it gets me no-where. Especially if it means that I have to start looking around even more and end up trying to comprehend some advice produced by someone who has little or no idea about how to author written documentation. A good example of this is whoever produced the original layout for "man" pages. This person must have only ever intended them to be read by linux/unix conversant IT graduates. Maybe that one would be a good idea for the LDP people, redesign man pages to be more user/reader friendly - even including examples of the contextural use of a given command. It shouldn't logically take up much room. After all, the man pages as they currently exist, don't really take up a huge amount of space. That said, I can only thank and congratulate those of you who have the time/ability/patience to try an improve things, as I am always open to new idea's etc. But I doubt that I will ever be in a position to implement/instigate any changes myself, though perhaps I may continue to have a minor influence by asking pertinent questions or making appropriate suggestions - we'll see eh! Keep up the good works everybody regards John

I am pleased to see that the last three posts have read and understood what I have put. Well done (no sarcasm intended). To respond to your points - I have used window$ 95/98/98se/xp and apart from the occassional "blue screen of death" the only problem has been recently when I was prompted to update an "nvidia driver" and after the ubiquitous reboot, I had to redownload the driver from the nvidia site (as opposed to getting it via window$ update) because it screwed up the screen resolution. but after the re-download, problem sorted. And after reading the posts a couple of times to ensure that I am following what you are all saying, I believe that my original comment stands. I get the impression (rightly or wrongly) that you all have the relevant level of "prior knowledge" that would assist you in sorting out any problems that arise from installation. Whereas my point is that to truely compete with window$ there needs to be greater effort on the part of developers to make linux of any flavour install in a way that is as easy or easier than windows. This is where micro$oft have the main advantage. Window$ development is co-ordinated/completed by one entity - i.e. M$, linux development is by the very nature of linux, fragmented to say the least and in some cases confrontational. The debian versus redhat being a prime example (yes, I of course, acknowledge the installation of app's etc via source etc, but that is very much over the heads of the vast majority of n00b's). I do understand that often the adoption of a given OS is down to finance, but with a little assistance from the marketing nazi's, surely school's particulaly, would be able to see the benefit of the lower TCO of linux systems as well as the increased learning opportunity for learning offered by linux systems. And not just the one off sense of security felt by those who have managed to convince M$ or one of their agents to part with some free software/hardware and not followed through the additional costs of system management/licenceing etc etc. Don't forget, although I am nothing more than a recently converted window$ drone, my main reasons for converting where moral, social and ethical. As such I totally abhor the underhanded business tactics that have been used/adopted by the micro$oft corporation. I am also astounded, amazed and pleasantly suprised with linux by way of what has been created by many "volunteers" and under funded (for various reasons) businesses. I can definately see why redhat have taken the route that they follow and likewise SuSE's route of not having the most up to date version available for download. Though I also applaud the like of Mandrakesoft et al for making it available in the way that they have (I am still exploring the best way of making a contribution - I have paid for the latest version of mandrake - I just wish they would hurry up and post it through to me!). Hence I am very much pro linux and though I am not in a position to assist others (one day, one day!!!) I feel that it is rather pointless to stand on the sidelines poking my tongue out and blowing raspberries at M$. Just as I find it a little pedantic when prolinux people are only prepared to highlight the negative points of M$ and proprietary software. In the past, the plus points of micro$oft have been good in the sense of getting people into computers, IT and so on, and it is only now that I believe that the negative points need to be highlighted, because it would seem that now the current and emerging technology from the M$ camp is to squeeze every last penny/cent out of the computer user. regards John p.s. Yes, I have disabled the onboard sound in the BIOS though what that would do, I'm not sure.

While I try to make my posts as straight forward as possible, there is no accounting for taste, national Identity, attitude etc etc etc etc Having read the subsequent posts after my moan, I am not suprised at the reply and comments. But I have to say, I get the impression, that most of you here, have the experience and prior knowledge to get round the "teething problems" that would be experienced during the average install of mandrake or deadrat or SuSE etc. I feel the trick to success in getting people to migrate is one of installation without ANY teething problems whatsoever. The vast majority of window$ users don't care how it works, they just want it to work - that is why I said that installation should have included an option for a "window$esque" type total installation as well as the other choices. This enable people like yourselves to do the basic/advanced etc install that would be dependant on your knowledge/experience. Whereas, I can speak from the genuine n00b point of view, because I only really understand the politics behind linux, the linux/mandrake/whatever itself, might as well be written in SANSKRIT". It is not a naturally intuitive system to use - I would say that from the tone of your posts, it is straight forward for most of you, because of your experience with it. I don't want to sit here trying to pull it to pieces to do all sorts of exotic stuff with it. I just want to surf, word process, listen to music (not even new fangled stuff like mp3's, just good old reliable cd's) and maybe see if I can get my head round any of the games that come with most distro's. How it all happens, well I leave that up to the code monkies, that's their domain. Hence, I stand by my comments that while I don't believe that it is ready for the mass desktop YET, it isn't that far away, and yes I suspect that it is better than window$ in many ways, but the market driven impact of window$ on the planet means that you can go out and buy the latest IT goodie at a reasonable price etc so maybe window$ does have it's plus points ? regards John

Mandrake, ready for the desk top. Rubbish. I have recently migrated from windows and at the moment, from the n00b point of view (proper n00b I might add, not one whose profile show n00b because they have only just registered here!) all linux is indecypherable crap. My system is relatively basic, up to date, but still too much for mandrake to handle out of the box. E.G. it is equipted with onboard sound. I started playing with 8.2 (about a month before 9.0 was available for download), and after lots of stress, sort of got it working, I was trying things suggested by others because (a) I didn't have a clue and (B) linux documentation is a pile of shit that is meant for those with a fair amount of prior knowledge. I don't feel that I should have to use the "scatter gun"approach to configuration. The result, buying a soundblaster live (5.1 digital), because advice suggested that it should be straight forward to get running, and be recognised by the system/not cause a distro like mandrake any offence. Again, rubbish, yes seems to be recognised, yes, seems to load the correct module (whatever that may be) - Sound, not a f*****g sausage. I use an alcatel speedtouch usb for my dsl modem, when I was playing at 8.2 - major headache to get it going (thank god for window$ so I could at least get help/info). Under 9.0, better, though I still had to find out how to get the microcode into the right place to make it work. I also prefer to surf using opera. Under window$, even an idiot like me had no problems getting it going. Under linux, someone in the "States" was kind enough to send me some instructional screen shots on how to make a link to application so I could get an icon on the desktop, instead of having to try a run command everytime. This should have been something basic that was asked during install, but no, you have to have that prior knowledge. Fonts in browsers look hideous and blocky. I have to use a zoom facility all the time, just to read documents, that under the unfeasibly poor window$, are perfectly viewable first time. And yes, I can hear the comment of "well install the true type fonts - there's load of info available on that" from here. Well again, I say bollocks. If you go to the corefonts bit at sourceforge, you get a help page/instructions - but if you (like me) have little or no linux knowledge it's a waste of time, cos without that prior knowledge, you are screwed. Documentation - a favourite critiscm of mine, is written by linux geeks, for linux geeks. Can't these people write straight forward, easily understandable, step by step instruction - I say no they can't. I do appreciate that the distro developers are intelligent people - but linux will not be ready for the desktop until someone wakes up and starts producing idiot level instruction/help/advice for those users who just want to use, as opposed to those of you who are happy to get amongst it and do all that command line stuff. The only reason that computers/IT equipment are so cheap and readily available is because those IT nazi's at micro$oft, have realised that that is the main market for software/hardware. People who want to use computers as a tool, and not a toy that needs to be investigated, dismantled, re-built, etc, etc, In essence, keep things pretty close to what they are at the moment, but offer the choice of idiot level, window$esque installation. Oh and those documents that I keep moaning about, when you've produced something acceptable (and yes I do include the linux documentation project in that), print it on f*****g paper, I don't mind buying a book(s), even if it has to be done for each distro and make it affordably available. It's easier on the eyes/brain and quicker than having too search around following millions of links (chapters are good, indexes are good, pages (paper) are good). It should not be forgotten that those of us who just want a tool outweigh those who wan't a construction set by many thousands to one. We are the main market, we have most of the money. And we tend to be lead by both. Apart from that, I think that linux in general (mandrake specifically) are excellent, they have, and are enabling me to use a computer on more morale and ethical ground, but I will still have to retain dual boot facility for many years to come, because if I don't then I will still be screwed because of the above points (I don't mention games as I'm not really a "gamer") That said, keep up the good works, it's getting there, it's just not quite there YET regards John p.s. on the poor documentation thing, this is a problem that is linux wide, not just mandrake or tldp, I have tried SuSE 8.0 and deadrat 7.whatever, both have just as poorly written documentation as a lot of the applications that have so called "help" guides.

To inject a certain amount of sarcasm/controvesy into what is quite an amusing thread (apart from the posts about boot speeds etc), If something is said in english, it should really be said in the english way. If something is said in american, then it should be said in the american way. I say this, because I feel that they should be identified as two very distinct languages. Lets face it, that is one of the reasons that with most word processing applications, you can select english(GB/UK), english(US), english(CA), english(AUS), etc etc as custom dictionaries. In the past, there has even been the debate, here in the UK, as to who speaks the closest to what is considered "the Queens English". Logic could dictate, that I speak the queens english, because I was born and brought up (debatable!) within 50 miles of London, which should mean that my english is closer to the queens, than say someone who was born and brought up, say in Yorkshire, which is maybe 300 miles from London. But, that's all crap. Because, from what I recall, in public opinion polls, it was decided that those who spoke the closest to the queens english i.e. clearest and most concisely, probably originate in the Inverness region of Scotland. It depends entirely where you come from, your upbringing, education, point of view, politics, etc to name but a few factors. Personally, there are some of the english accent's, that I don't like. Though I will admit that these thoughts are based largely on sweeping generalisations. I am more likely to admit that if one want's to be purest about it, linux should be pronounced the same way that it is pronounced by Linus Torvalds. After all, it's "his baby". So the earlier comment attributed to him of "I don't care how you pronounce it, just use it" is the most valid. I have only heard it prounounced LIN (as in bin) NUCKS (as in shucks). There is probably some idiot from the "Oxford English Dictionary" who can bore you stupid, as to why this may or may not be the correct way to prounounce it, but who really gives a "monkey's toss" about lexicographical pedantics!!! Perhaps it is of greater concern how to say SuSE correctly, is it, SOO ZEE, or may be SOOS, or even SOO SAH - though they could just change it to be called gecko linux, just to make our "linguistic lives" a little easier. Keep up the good works regards John

sorry all, But this is a bit "told you so!" Now I can't say whether any of you are aware as more often than not, we don't even put locations, let alone nationalities on our profiles, but........ The two things that tell me (a Brit and newbie at that - well with linux anyway) that the article is only worth reading to get an understanding of "the other point of view" is because it is a "vnunet" article. vnu are computer publishers with mainly british interest (they are the publishers of "computeractive" amongst other magazines). As far as I can suss out after a quick look around, all the vnu magazine titles revolve around "pc's and current populist technology" i.e. micro$oft and their bloody awful window$. Secondly, the last part of the title is "say Micro$oft". To me, that says it all, I cannot think of any company in the IT world who have been proven to be capable of such poor marketing tactics, falsehoods and poor quality software products as Micro$oft. None of this is new, it's public knowledge. There is much in micro$oft's products and services that can be "slagged off", for a variety of reasons. And some of the negativity should also be directed at those who, for what ever the reason, become mouth piece's for micro$oft. Myself, I am an aspiring micro$oft refusenik on social, moral and ethical grounds. I.E. I don't really give a "flying F**k" about what's occuring inside the case of my computer, I just want it to do the things that I can do under window$. Unfortunately for me, this has meant that I am loosing large amounts of hair/sanity/patience in trying to learn how to use linux. I have gained knowledge/understanding/stomache ulcers during this process. I should like to point out that I feel that the only real failing of the linux distro producers, seems to be their inability, to produce clear and concise easy to follow documentation. That would enable the"rest of us" i.e. me and the rest of the non computer world to be able to opt for linux as a genuine alternative to M$ products. Even the sterling works of the "linux documentation project", could do with some waking up. About an hour ago, I was reading a "tldp" howto on the basics of linux/unix etc. After about 6 screen's of it, I abandoned it and came here. The howto was supposed to be "basic", but instead, it was blathering on about "IRQ's", virtual memory, etc etc. I might have been at fault by trying to comprehend the WRONG howto? But maybe, if things were better laid out, and in smaller sections, with better linking to the various other information, I wouldn't have ended up with thought's of "what am I trying to read all this irrelevant crap" going through my head. To finish, I would like to say that my post isn't meant to sound overly critical or disrespectful to those who have the intelligence and ability to genuinely influence the "going's on" in the linux world, I think that they are doing a damn fine job. They could just do with some assistance from "non-linux" people, like professional technical authors, proof readers, editors and so on, as well as more non-linux people who could act as "guinea pigs" for things like applications etc. And that you can all take the original thread idea for what it really is, a slanted piece of propaganda from the master of disinformation! keep up the good works. regards John