Gowator

Aye, I noticed that. Lot of issues lol. I'll find out what state it's in when I get back on Thursday as I'm away right now.

No prob, Ill be in the UK so probably a little quiet.

The stability of cooker depends to a large extent on the release cycle.

Just before a new release it contains essentially the new release... then they add new stuff for testing... and more new and more... etc. until the next release cycle is almost ready when they start trying to stabilise and freze new packages etc.

Beryl should be in the Mandriva 2007 normal (non-cooker) release.

For a lot of us the design rules of Gnome sucks but for a lot of people they are good.

Yep sure...

If Gnome would become to the thing Linus wants it to be than the Gnome developers should start by rewriting their design rules. Maybe it's not relevant here but I have an example from somewhere else. Namely ship building. I can't remember the ships name or any other name or the exact time but in the 18th or 19th century the Swedish king give an order to build a new warship. The king was wealthy and wanted a very powerful ship which can really show his power. So he ordered the engeneer to build a bigger ship than it was originally designed. The ship always become bigger and bigger while they were building it. In the end the upper part of the ship was so big that the ship itself become dangerously unbalanced and sunk like a stone in its first trip. It was all because of the king's unlimited ambitions.

So I can understand the Gnome developers not starting everything again. And I don't understand Linus. I don't like Gnome either but I use KDE silently and have nothing against Gnome or the Gnome team.

I think he has a right to answer questions.... he also has the same right as anyone else to submit bugs and fixes and moan if they don't get used.... he has no right to expect they are used but he has every right to moan... he's just a guy like you and me...

Do I expect Gnome to change? Nope ... perhaps Linus is just more optimistic ???

Linus should work on the Linux kernel instead of creating unecessary flamewars. Because the Linux kernel has its own set of bugs.

Also the kernel contains things specifically for Gnome/KDE... the whole HAL stuff is largely for Gnome/KDE... huge parts of the kernel are written for DE to integrate with... so when you stick in your CF card or USB key etc. the DE knows...

I'm betting if you dig the the ML's you'll find plently of times Gnome devs have said how the kernel should handle something...

Yeah, it's Debian 3.1, stable so sarge.

 

Oh, and:

 

apt-get upgrade

 

is an OK command. The update, updates the repositories, the upgrade does a minimal package upgrade, prob security related stuff, and dist-upgrade rolls in the new kernels, and other stuff.

 

I found this out when trying to get this sorted. Will see how my install works out, and if not, then I'll get etch and work with this.

Well the point was I think that if you want Etch install Etch????

The Debian rolling upgrade works quite well but the more major it is the more issues its likely to have and the more experience fixing them your likely to need.

I'd say an upgrade from 3.1 to todays etch is going to be very very major... so its really not the best way to get your hands a little dirty, more jumping in feet first...

Yes, I agree with you all... in fact I reinstalled Linux Mandriva 2007.0 from scratch.

Then moved again to Cooker.

Now almost all things are working.

I have some problems with nVidia driver 9746 (it look like it is loaded but it seems not all accelerations are working), Beryl (when I start it the desktop becomes 3D but it gets corrupted soon after), Ekiga (it starts and closes immediately), Acrobat Reader plugin for Mozilla (it refuses installing because libGLU.so.1 is missing but this lib isn't included in any available packages)...

 

Many thanks anyway, I will ask how to solve the remaining problems in their correct forum sections.

Mauro

I feel I'm issing something...?

Your on a deadline yet you install cooker? and reinstall it? Then add Beryl on top?

Each problem is probably solvable, some might take a finite time (if the sources are mixed up)... so it won't be repaired until the cooker sources are....

I might also add that I think linus does get pissed by the expectatation he should be DM agnostic... and at the same time Gnome devs obviously rub him the wrong way...

 

Whenever he makes any comment about what he prefers its met with furor from the Gnomies asking him to defend his position...

 

that has to get tiring after a while....

 

 

Well, then he shouldn't start off calling them nazis, that's very offensive IMHO. That helped him very little in his case.

I doubt that was his opening line .....

The problem with Gnome IMHO is that its like talking to a brick wall.... you either love the philosphy or don't... any on the whole anyone who doesn't go along is stonewalled by BUT its the HID rules or but the icon will not be in line with policy... there seems little room for pragmatism...

I don't wanna use the obvious example but its like talking to a certain set of people who deny scientific fact... you can present the reasons and in the end they go back to a book and say "Its not written like that here so its not true". I am of course talking of the book of HID

Its only MHO but a lot of Gnome/KDE flames wars are pretty much down to this difference in pragmatism .... I know very few people if any who feel they are elitist by using KDE? However its reasonably common for Gnome users to start spouting HID, HID ...

Fine HID is a good thing... but its not a closed book IMHO... but often the arguaments for Gnome are themselves non-pragmatic arguaments... by far the best arguament I ever read was on this board by Arctic... that he spend less time faffing and customising ....

I think over 90% of the time Linus doesn't say much anyway... but that the Nazi comment is different culturally from place to place... The fact its become a non PC term and more so in some countires other than others is not really important... perhaps he could have used a better term but perhaps he was just tired with talking to a brick wall? Its also become a term you can take offense to... and get lots of support...

The very nature of the kernel development is pragmatic... that is obviously Linus' preferred way of working... I think most people who have bashed thier heads against the wall long enough talking to someone who say's if its not in the manual it can't be... just get frustrated by the lack of arguament and resort to whatever anyway...

I might also add that I think linus does get pissed by the expectatation he should be DM agnostic... and at the same time Gnome devs obviously rub him the wrong way...

Whenever he makes any comment about what he prefers its met with furor from the Gnomies asking him to defend his position...

that has to get tiring after a while....

The thing is really about how it feels as much as anything ... I just feel Gnome wants to restrict me

Funny... I don't feel restricted.

Not really because you made a concious effort to chose Gnome... for good reasons I might add.

Life is full of little choices and the ones we feel we make ourself seem less restrictive.

Sometimes Linus is like your old uncle that sits with his whiskey in the corner - you have to respect him, but try to keep his mouth shut around your friends tongue.gif

Aye, true but he's also the sort of uncle who might have a few funny ideas but has seen the world...

Kinda quirky but with good reasons or at least what he sees as good reasons.

Horses for courses. Linus is overstating his opinion, and because of his status, people are giving it more attention than it's honestly worth. Sites reporting on this really don't help. It's not news, it's someone just attempting to enforce their opinion on others by abusing their public status.

Iph, I agree with most of that but I think the bone of contention for linus is philosophical rather than anything else.

I think in many way's its the idea of "denying something" to the user because it doesn't quite fit some standards? In many ways I think this is a reflection of the way the kernel has developed and perhaps partly he is defending the model he has taken for kernel development which has been put in what works and clean it up later?

The thing is really about how it feels as much as anything ... I just feel Gnome wants to restrict me and to be honest I don't use most of the self-config functionality of KDE, I just sorta like feeling I can if I want?

One thing the screensaver thing reminded me of was my old job where the Win95 PC's had a locked down screensaver. The screensaver was loads of "exersizes" and if you were on the phone etc. it would kick in.. once it kicked in you were forced to go through the exersizes or at least watch them finish... indeed the annoying thing was just before it started you lost the ability to jiggle the mouse and cancel it...

This was "policy"... no discussion every PC had to be the same... so you could be in an important meeting presenting something and if people asked questions the screen saver kicked in... How stupid did that make people feel when you have other companies in and a 1 hr meeting has to just sit there for 5 mins while a screen saver finishes?

Or sat on the phone to a contractor and just as you're going to give them figures POW... no PC for 5 mins?

This has left me strongly abhoring all control mechanisms on PC's.... because it forgets the basic point of using a PC in the forst place which is to get a job done. If you just use a booking screen that's one thing but to give a PC as a tool then disable its use for the same just seems wrong...

We developed a whole stupid bypass culture, for instance from time to time I would get a call from the big boss and ask the guy in the office next door to spend time every five mins wiggling my mouse while I was in the meeting, just in case I had something urgent to do when I got back....?

The excuse, sorry I couldn't print that contract out while you had the people in your office because I had the screen saver on is kinda lame?

Sometimes the responses are better than the lead story...

gnome-screensaver, as described in its FAQ, has as one of its stated goals preventing users from doing Rude Things like making GLtext display rude messages. It does that be denying the user almost any control over the screensaver whatsoever.

 

Unfortunately, this goal is just as achievable as victory in the War on Drugs. There's nothing that keeps me from turning the screensaver off and leaving an OpenOffice document reading "THE CEO IS A BASTARD" (the example from the FAQ) on display in 288-point Cooper Black, or leaving an image open on screen that would create a "hostile work environment."

This really for me sums up Gnome... or at least this type of thing which seems about locking down the desktop and if not limiting user choice making their minds up...

It all depends how your going to work ... but the way I see it I don't like gettiing to do something and then not finding the option and think "Ah OK if it doesn't do that then it must be for a good reason" ..

Hello Gowater.

 

I hope you didn't think I was taking a jab you because I certainly wasn't I can assure you. You made excellent points, in my view.

 

Cheers. John.

Not in the slightest, I'm guessing I read the post like you thinking "but those are all my reasons I use KDE"

As you know I'm rarely so brief but this time my answer was written for me.

I think mine didn't... or am I wrong? It's been such a long time ago...

Yep ... thats the thing about rolling distro's..... install seems so long away in a galaxy far far away...

It was the excuse (I say excuse cos I don't think its a good reason) the installer was so basic for so long...

I find it extremely laughable that all the reasons the original poster presented as the reasons for his preference for using Gnome are exactly the reasons I prefer KDE.

Yep that was my first answer....

It wasn't a joke either ....

You will have to switch the repos later through synaptic or from by editing your /etc/apt/sources.list file with an editor.

Yes but the installer allows you to choose unstable right at the beginning... least mine did?

I've heard people say that kde is more difficult to use but maybe it's because I'm used to it that I find it very easy to use. I've just never liked the feel of gnome although to be honest I've never used it much cause it just didn't appeal to me.

Hmm that got me thinking...

I wonder if your 2nd DM is sorta special ?

When I started off with Linux I used Gnome and of course I was learning and new so everything was a bit confusing... by the time I switched to KDE I was much more experienced ..

In many way's I had played about with Gnome then got bored etc. so the impetus of a new DM got me playing about a bit... so for me KDE was that ...

Looking back I think that my experience level when I switched was what perhaps made the difference for me and perhaps had I gone the otherway I'd be a Gnomie now?

Hmmm, not really sure about doing this. As this will do what it did last time.

 

With the dist-upgrade, it's going to remove the 2.4 kernel that comes with stable.

If that's the case then you don't have the current stable (from memory)

Which means, I need to install a kernel first. But installing that kernel first, wants to install a whole load of other packages too, and removing a lot of stuff as well. So might have to do the kernel install first, reboot with this, and then finish with the dist-upgrade.

 

Think will leave it for the time being, and do next week.

If you do that then the HAL/DBUS stuff won't work... it needs a 2.6 kernel...

Your current upgrade is old stable to new ...

and its

apt-get update & apt-get dist-upgrade (not apt-get upgrade) btw

If your install is really minimal (no Xorg etc.) it might be efficient to do this... but if not its best to start from unstable just like polemicz suggests.

My experience from the past is that unstable and testing are most unstable after the release of a new stable.

True and the time leading up to it which is one reason why the whole kanotix thing happened ...

I'd really suggest you use the link to h2's script I sent you ... it will do everything including your sources but I would do as suggested above and install unstable from scratch first.

Woodford's comments suggest that Ubuntu is eclipsing Debian. "I think Mark has done a masterful job of nudging the community into a more pragmatic point of view. More and more the Debian community is becoming the Ubuntu community. New people coming in are allowed to have diverse opinions about open source software. The hardcore purists are sticking with Debian, but five years from now, they may be about as plentiful as 1970s MIT hackers."

Wow, talk about a great definition of the types of parasite.

Ubuntu is a parasitic distro to start with but it is at least the type of parasite that tries to preserve its host, or at least tries not to cause it direct harm.

MEPIS has just dropped to a new low... its now become a parasite feeding off another parasite while actively trying to kill off the host of its own host.

Ubuntu is .... its here and lots of people like it... if its hurting Debian its through malnourishment and it somewhat believes that its excrement somehow provides nourishment for Debian. It doesn't but at least Shuttleworth always makes an effort, even if it is ill received.

Woodford seems rather gleeful at Debians predicted demise, so much so he wants to help it along as fast as possible. Poor guy, he must have been told where to shove it from the Debian devs one to many times for his ego.

If you don't find anything then

ls | hexdump -C

provides a base...

This could be put into a perl or awk (cut/paste)

With for instance (and don't run this Im going out but Ill get back tomorrow)

find . -name "*.mp3" -exec mv '{}' $HOME \;

I need to think about piping it but should work if I can take output from the ASCI column of hexdump...

Noone know what Canonical wants to use the CNR to (yet). The logical way will be rebuild/change CNR to replace the already easy add/remove application to Ubuntu standard.

 

As I understand it from Kervin (he explained CNR's advantages on the forum board) that Companies can ask CNR to make their software available for linux, then CNR converts the software to packages to fit the Distro that support CNR. This will make it more attactive for software companies to make software programs for linux without thinking of the diffrences distros and system setups. That's one of the big advantage will have.

Ok, fair point....

I was somewhat puzzled by what Canonical/Ubuntu would actually gain from this technically...

You should use the --allow-force (or something like that see man page) of urpmi to install coreutils anyway.

I thought of that then reread the title of the thread....

Your distro is mixed up.... (not you Dexter :D) its not easy to guarantee anything except a clean install so Given your "deadline" I really would just use a LiveCD... and sort out the messed up mixture after you have done this....

Its my experience that when working to a deadline with a mixed up sources distro you are more likely to mess things up further.

LOL I prefer KDE for all the same reasons you prefer Gnome...

That's because I am used to KDE and comfortable with it...

"KDE looks tacky."

Beauty is in the eye f the beholder....

I find KDE much easier to make it look the way like it... but that's just the way I like it...

Well said.

 

I played in ubuntu for a couple months again, and it just left not such a good taste for me, just different things I didn't like. Whilst I'm not a big fan of the way they did sudo, that wasn't my biggest problem.

 

Heck, I'm getting bored with everything again, so I went back to Gentoo a few weeks ago on my 2 main box's. Easier to play with more options ;)

Yeah, in the end I wasn't happy with the sudo stuff but it wasn't so mucvh the actual sudo that left a bad taste but the fact when I treid to take it out lots of the packages had it built in...

It seems to me to be the mother of the customisations... or at least have driven them as they had small mods to work through sudo ... but with each release the modifications have piled up ...

I felt kinda similar about Suse when I tried deinstalling YaST... Well I messed it up then though heck I don't want it anyway... but its so deeply embedded it seemed easier to start from slackware and make a new one. I don't think Ubuntu is that far yet... but I think it takes an extra step every release...

I think its more the direction its heading bothers me than any specific...?

CNR being one example? Though of course they might just use the technology without the credit card part but then I see no advantage over synaptic??? So Im back where I started??

I'm more interested in the technology that Linspire going to share with Ubuntu as a part of the agreement.

Aye, that is a more interesting aspect. I'm curious about CNR, I need to look more into how it works.

Two seperate things :D

I'm actually interested to see what technology Linspire can actually bring?

I can see a shared userbase but I'm not really certain about what CNR can actually bring?

http://klik.atekon.de/ already works with kubuntu ...

If that's your thing then it actually does a good job at user space installs....

CNR is more like synaptic with a credit card number ...

Again, I guess if that's your thing.... except Ubutnu was always about being competely Free as in beer?

Both distro's main feature is "no root password" and both are Debian based but I don't see any other commonality other than they are n00b distro's?

Kanotix will (?) switch its base from Sid to Etch- not Ubuntu... although personally I have my doubts if we ever see another Kanotix release.

This is really not the place for me to repeat from memory IRC conversations but if kano ever decides??? Meanwhile the developers have already left...

It is also MHO that Ubuntu is not the ideal candidate for basing standards off of. That's not to say Ubuntu is bad, just that it's not the best candidate. When attempting to create standards it's better to start off with a less customized base, and Ubuntu is highly customized.

I agree and so do the sidux developers. The reason most of them left was not because kano announced they would be moving to Ubuntu base but because he considered moving to a Ubuntu base. (and to no small extent not making up his mind as well)

Several long conversations made it clear that many of the developers and advanced users would NEVER use Ubuntu again and that backwards engineering the customisations made in Ubuntu was pointless... when you can start from a clean Debian base.

Kano's motivation was largely financial in that kantotix doesn't provide his food.... but sucks heavily into his time to do things that do provide him food ont he table. The idea to switch to an Ubuntu base was to shortcut this ... the objections were mainly that it was pointless because if you want a Ubuntu based distro and don't mind the root password thing then Ubuntu is perfectly good already... and that reverse engineering out the root password stuff is more work than taking SID and doing a few bugfixes....

No. Debian is far bigger than Ubuntu - Still. Ubuntu just get's lots of press.

LOL....

Typical Ubuntuers arguament .... Ubunti is great

Debianers response ... OK.

Ubuntuers reply... except its better than Debian

Debianers response ... OK.

Ubuntuers reply " You don't need a root password"

Debianers response ... OK... but I like my root password

Ubuntuers reply " but more people use Ubuntu"

Debianers response ... OK

Ubuntuers reply "Ubuntu has everything Debian has but its better"

Debianers response ... OK, I thought it didn't have a root password

Ubuntuers reply "it doesn't need one, its better"

Debianers response ... OK

Ubuntuers reply "You should use Ubuntu, everyone is using it"

Debianers response "I'm not and never will - will you let go of my arm now... I have a meeting to go to"

Ubuntuers reply "what about"

Debianers reply "about achitectures you probably never heard of and will never be supported by Ubuntu"

Erm, anyway... does Ubuntu have more x86 users? Most Debian users really don't know or care...

So packaging standardisation is a pretty difficult problem, not impossible....

Now where's that interview from Dexter .... the one where RPM's are better than Deb's ...

Either way package management is critical... package management defines distributions.... Gentoo, Arch, Debian and even Mandriva are all distro's to a large extent defined by their package management...

CNR... is NEVER going to be seen in any of those except perhaps Mandriva, the idea of a commerical repository built into the distro is anathema to Gentoo, Arch or Debian.

Anyway RPM s fine for non server stuff... but anyone thinks apt4rpm replaces deb's hasn't installed server stuff with apt... because its not apt that makes the difference but dpkg in the backgound. That said its a question of taste and custom anyway ... Debian preconfigures servers whilst Mandriva installs them then provides tools to set it up....

I think MEPIS made a conscious decision to be compatible with the ubuntu repos ( and probable so did Kanotix) exactly because they feel Ubuntu is becoming the de facto standard.

Debian SID had a BIG year..... XFREE_>XORG and Dbus and HAL... and now Beryl et al...

There were times in the last year where I literally thought (I'm not saying this as a wind up I mean it) that Debian unstable was getting as unstable as Mandriva official.... and I mean official not cooker.

This might sound like a cheap shot .... OK perhaps it is a cheap shot but its true....

Debian stability is judged from Debian Stable as a base.

Debian stable is possibly one of the words biggest understatements.... next to things like the mariannas trench... Its stead and boring but stability is not like anything Mandriva have ever come close to.... indeed it is better compared IMHO from a stability perspective to Solaris or *BSD....

Its a very tough milestone.... MEPIS and Kanotix both prided themselves on giving the stability approaching stable but with more up to date packages...

Because of quantum shifts in Debian over the last year which don't end with the stuff above but include a new installer, GUI installed by default etc.

This made it harder for kanotix and I guess MEPIS to provide stability and leading edge.

Previously she had a reporter track her down and publish facts about her, violating her choice to remain anonymous in her work. SCO was likely a driving force behind that one too. It's sad to see someone who just tries to report and explain the information to allow the public to be informed (that is, being a real journalist) be strong-armed by a corrupt company.

I agree, even the reporter who say's she has accused of being pro-SCO seems to be able to find some sympathy for her (or perhaps him)...

The whole SCO issue is an illustration of the way the legal process can be messed with....

I and I think everyone else would like to see some evidence not just wild claims....

If SCO wants to make claims it should at least publish the offending lines of linux code it beleives infringe...rather more fairly it should then publish what it beleives it to infringe upon... but even the former would be a step in the right direction.

It could be so many things.... it could be as simple as noone tested with the Italian language packs?

What seems to have happened though is a chain reaction.... and you seem to have spotlighted it with the kernel change....

I think your short term solution could be to use a LiveCD... finish your work and make sure its all safe.

If you reinstall cooker later you might want to consider installing twice if you have diskspace ... make a minimal install with only what you need so the next time cooker wrecks your system (which it will) you have a bootable working version....

Having the bootable working version can also help you work out what went wrong....