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Looking for a mini desktop [solved]


neddie
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My search for a decent, non-wide laptop to replace my now-deceased non-wide laptop ended up with a complete failure - so I'm now looking for decent, non-wide desktop instead. I'd like a nice, neat, SMALL desktop, very quiet, but able to drive a decent screen. I'm not going to be playing spectacular 3d games so it doesn't have to be a monster.

 

So far I've found a 1600x1200 monitor, and I've found a couple of candidates for the little machine:

- Asrock nettop ion 330 (dual core 1.6 GHz Atom, nvidia ion graphics, DVD burner, very cheap)

- Shuttle K48 (Intel core2duo 2.9 GHz, Intel shared graphics, DVD burner, more ports but about 50% more expensive).

 

So obviously I'm leaning towards the Asrock, but I'm wondering if I'll have problems with the (new?) nvidia ion stuff or problems driving a 1600x1200 with such a cheap box. I've read comments that Ubuntu runs ok on it, but it's not clear how much of a pain it was to get it working.

Does anyone have any experience with these things, are they too cheap to be worthwhile or would they be a reasonable desktop? I'm not expecting stellar performance but I'm used to my single core 1.6 GHz centrino so I'm easily happy :)

Edited by neddie
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This might be helpful for the nvidia:

 

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=nvidia_ion_linux&num=1

 

they did something back in June with this card, and it seems like everything works, including huge resolution too.

 

And this might help you for driver selection by using envy:

 

http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=98523

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So far I've found a 1600x1200 monitor, and I've found a couple of candidates for the little machine:

- Asrock nettop ion 330 (dual core 1.6 GHz Atom, nvidia ion graphics, DVD burner, very cheap)

- Shuttle K48 (Intel core2duo 2.9 GHz, Intel shared graphics, DVD burner, more ports but about 50% more expensive).

 

So obviously I'm leaning towards the Asrock, but I'm wondering if I'll have problems with the (new?) nvidia ion stuff or problems driving a 1600x1200 with such a cheap box. I've read comments that Ubuntu runs ok on it, but it's not clear how much of a pain it was to get it working.

Does anyone have any experience with these things, are they too cheap to be worthwhile or would they be a reasonable desktop? I'm not expecting stellar performance but I'm used to my single core 1.6 GHz centrino so I'm easily happy :)

 

Nvidia ION is fully supported by the closed-source Nvidia driver so you shouldn't worry about any compatibility issues.

What you should be concerned about is the Atom cpu, which is fine for a simple second computer for web browsing or as a media center (the ION does all the hard work for the video playback), but I wouldn't choose it as my primary desktop machine as it's too weak.

A dual-core Atom is probably still slower than your 1.6GHz Centrino, your Centrino had 2MB of 2nd level cache, these Atoms only have 512K which makes a big difference. I have a Toshiba Libretto with a 1.2GHz Pentium-M (2MB cache) which still feels much faster than any Atom Netbook I have tried.

 

I'm surprised you are saying the K48 is 50% more expensive, did you see it at such a high price as a fully built system somewhere?

The best way to spend little with the K48 is to buy it as a barebones and then add DVD, cpu, RAM yourself (bought as separate components). By doing it like this it shouldn't cost 50% more and you are getting a MUCH more powerful system than the Asrock is.

 

The Shuttle K48 barebone as available under 130 euros, the Asrock ION 330 costs around 280 Euros, therefore with the 150 Euros difference you should easily be able to add 2GB RAM, an E5300 cpu, a DVD drive and a hard disk to the K48 (you could salvage the hard disk from your defunct laptop and save on the hard disk too).

Edited by tux99
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A dual-core Atom is probably still slower than your 1.6GHz Centrino, your Centrino had 2MB of 2nd level cache, these Atoms only have 512K which makes a big difference.
Wow, that's interesting. I just assumed that in the years since I bought my laptop everything has advanced so much that whatever I buy is bound to be faster - especially when it says 2*1.6GHz instead of 1*1.6GHz. I had no idea the cache makes so much difference, I guess I'll have to try it out if I can. But if the graphics stuff is handled by the decent GPU, then the "weak" atom would only really be noticeable when doing serious number crunching like compiling or photo-stitching, right? Maybe booting but that's mostly hard drive access. Most of the time it wouldn't really be a problem I think (my centrino spent a lot of time running at 600 MHz).

 

I'm surprised you are saying the K48 is 50% more expensive, did you see it at such a high price as a fully built system somewhere?
Yes, that's right. I've seen the ION one at 290 euros and a complete system using the K48 is being sold for 440. That's with core2duo 2*2.9GHz, Intel GMA950, 2GB RAM, 750GB hard drive, DVD burner and so on, nothing spectacular. The main reason I don't buy a load of bits myself and attempt to put it together is that I have no clue what I'm doing and no clue what bits go well (or at all) with what other bits. So I'd probably think I was saving money when actually I was just wasting it. If I buy a complete system then they've done the groundwork figuring out what fits. Plus they buy in bulk, plus I could take it back if it doesn't work.

 

So that's why the atom/ion one looks attractive to me, it's a complete unit (and much smaller), much cheaper, lower power, just maybe your point about performance is a drag. Good news about the compatibility though, thanks.

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Wow, that's interesting. I just assumed that in the years since I bought my laptop everything has advanced so much that whatever I buy is bound to be faster - especially when it says 2*1.6GHz instead of 1*1.6GHz. I had no idea the cache makes so much difference, I guess I'll have to try it out if I can. But if the graphics stuff is handled by the decent GPU, then the "weak" atom would only really be noticeable when doing serious number crunching like compiling or photo-stitching, right? Maybe booting but that's mostly hard drive access. Most of the time it wouldn't really be a problem I think (my centrino spent a lot of time running at 600 MHz).

 

Actually normal desktop use is much more cpu intensive than GPU intensive. The ION GPU is only an advantage for 3D stuff (games) and for playback of HD videos (but with a decent C2D you can do that anyway). For normal desktop use you are much better off with a powerful cpu and basic GPU than the other way round.

 

Yes, that's right. I've seen the ION one at 290 euros and a complete system using the K48 is being sold for 440. That's with core2duo 2*2.9GHz, Intel GMA950, 2GB RAM, 750GB hard drive, DVD burner and so on, nothing spectacular. The main reason I don't buy a load of bits myself and attempt to put it together is that I have no clue what I'm doing and no clue what bits go well (or at all) with what other bits. So I'd probably think I was saving money when actually I was just wasting it. If I buy a complete system then they've done the groundwork figuring out what fits. Plus they buy in bulk, plus I could take it back if it doesn't work.

 

A complete K48 for 440 Euros is simply a rip-off, anyone can build that for less than 300 Euros in 10-15 minutes (that's how long it would take anyone experienced to put together the barebone K48, a cpu, a hdd, a DVD drive and two memory sticks).

 

These would be the bits you need (there are many alternatives, but I can assure you these will work together):

- Intel E5300 cpu 2.6GHz (boxed version retail version with heatsink-fan)

- Kingston ValueRAM 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 800 (KVR800D2N5K2/2G)

- LG GH22NS40 DVD-multi-burner

- any SATA 3.5" hard drive, a 2.5" notebook drive would work too, but it would need adapter brackets that need to be bought separately

 

Putting the bits together isn't hard, the only bits to be careful about is making sure the RAM is seated properly (and don't press the motherboard down too hard when inserting the RAM) and the Intel heat-sink mounting system is a bit fiddly but anyone with a minimum of technical mindset can do it.

 

Basically if you know how to handle a screwdriver then you can put together a PC too! :)

 

If you tell us in which country you are I can post direct links for all the bits to some online dealer with good prices too.

Edited by tux99
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if those are the 2 youre looking at go for the shuttle.

 

now realize you are paying a LOT for their case and PS but thats because they are good stuff. also much as I hate to say it, with that selection, the Intel will give you much better log term performence thn the atom.

 

i'm an AMD man myself, but I own an asus eeepc 1000hd with the atom, and i'm running mdv2009.1 and thats as far as I would push that chip, it is in NO WAY meant for a desktop (even though there are TONS for $300 thinlines out there with atoms)

 

but if you can, go to tigerdirect.com and piece yourself together one, you willl get top notch performence for excellent prices

(but i cant tell if your US or euro)

 

even if youre on the big land their have to be websites like TD over there.

 

j

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Unfortunately that 400 Euro is pretty much in line with what that particular store charge for the bits you suggest. If I add up their prices for the K48 case (135 EUR) plus a Maxtor hard drive, LG DVD burner, Kingston 2GB RAM, Intel Core2Duo 2*3GHz, plus a cheap keyboard, I get 420 EUR, which leaves 20 EUR for the saved hassle of not having to put all the bits together myself. Plus as I said I can take the whole thing back if it doesn't work and it's their fault not mine. OK, the processor is a bit faster than what you suggested (3GHz instead of 2.6) but it's pretty close to the advertised 440 EUR setup. Sadly the guy in the shop couldn't show me one, and I'm wary of ordering something that I've never seen.

 

So I did some more digging around, and found another shop advertising a K45, and selecting bits from that shop came out about 50 EUR cheaper (although the K45 is a cheaper barebone anyway). But while I was digging around I found several complaints about the PSU fan on the K45 being annoyingly loud, which is a bit off-putting. So I went to the shop to ask (especially to ask about the K45SE which has the USB ports on the front, _and_ space for an optical drive, thanks for the tip!!), and it turns out they can't get _any_ K45 or K45SE or even K48 cases any more, they can't even order them any more. With no sign of a similar replacement.

 

And there followed gnashing of teeth. But in the store they had one of these asrock thingies, and it was driving a big, high-resolution screen showing a movie with no problems whatsoever, couldn't hear it running, and it wins over the Asus and Acer Atom nettop thingies by being dual core and with the Ion and with a DVD burner built in.

 

(By the way yes I am in Euroland, currently in Germany.)

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Another question - the K45 (and K45SE) only has a VGA output. The K48 also has a DVI output. If I want to drive a 1600x1200 monitor (which has both VGA and DVI in), will it make much difference which input I use? I assume DVI is better because it wouldn't have to be converted from digital to analog to digital, but would it be noticeable? Otherwise there doesn't seem to be much difference between the K45SE and K48 (apart from 50EUR and a slight difference in size).

(The asrock apparently has HDMI out and a HDMI->DVI converter)

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If I want to drive a 1600x1200 monitor (which has both VGA and DVI in), will it make much difference which input I use?

I have a 1680x1050 LCD, and the only thing that I can see a difference with is a very demanding 3-D graphics app or game. Then the DVI is noticeably better.

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Another question - the K45 (and K45SE) only has a VGA output. The K48 also has a DVI output. If I want to drive a 1600x1200 monitor (which has both VGA and DVI in), will it make much difference which input I use? I assume DVI is better because it wouldn't have to be converted from digital to analog to digital, but would it be noticeable? Otherwise there doesn't seem to be much difference between the K45SE and K48 (apart from 50EUR and a slight difference in size).

(The asrock apparently has HDMI out and a HDMI->DVI converter)

 

Yes it will make a difference, DVI is absolutely pin-sharp, VGA (especially at 1600x1200) is more blurry. My K45 looks ok at 1280x1024 seen on its own, but if I compare it to my other PC that uses DVI at the same resolution I notice the difference.

 

As I said above, the Asrock is great as a HTPC/media center PC because the ION does all the work for that, but you should test it doing normal desktop stuff, browsing (try youtube, especially HQ and HD), then you will notice that the cpu is slow.

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Those stores seem rubbish to me (as so many computer stores), they are telling you porkies and charging high prices compared to online shops, and they just push whatever their have in stock, the K45SE just came out last month in Europe so it certainly can be ordered!

 

Also you really don't need a 3GHz C2D especially since the E5300 is dead easy to overclock, mine runs at 3GHz absolutely stable, with no increase in temperatures compared to when it ran at 2.6GHz.

All you need to do is increase the FSB in the BIOS (no need to fiddle with any other settings).

 

I read those comments about the loud PSU fan too, but mine is fairly quiet, I think it was an issue with earlier batches last year.

 

I know you said you don't like ordering online, but here is an example build with links to Alternate.de a very well known, long-established, reputable German online dealer , so you can think about it:

 

K48 barebone € 122,90

http://www.alternate.de/html/product/details.html?articleId=287352

 

Intel E5300 cpu 2.6GHz boxed € 58,90

http://www.alternate.de/html/product/details.html?articleId=313548

 

Kingston ValueRAM DIMM 2GB DDR2-667 Kit (KVR667D2N5K2/2G) € 33,99

http://www.alternate.de/html/product/details.html?articleId=36850

 

LG GH-22NP20 Bulk € 30,99

http://www.alternate.de/html/product/details.html?articleId=290056

 

Western Digital WD7500AADS 750GB (Caviar Green) € 59,90 (very quiet and low power draw)

http://www.alternate.de/html/product/details.html?articleId=345144

 

Currently all these items are in stock at Alternate.de.

 

Grand-total: 320 Euros including shipping

 

(I have listed an IDE burner as the K48 ships with one IDE and one SATA cable included, so you don't need any extra cables.)

 

Obviously in case you don't already have a keyboard and mouse you need to add that, too.

 

Else there is this vendor: http://www.xpc-shop.de/

There you can click yourself together a personalized K48 build and then order it ready assembled (make sure you chose 2x1GB RAM not 1x2GB as they show you by default, to get the benefit of dual-channel).

They are a bit more expensive but the same config as above comes at 370 Euros assembled.

Edited by tux99
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Hi, sorry I haven't replied sooner, but thank you very much tux99 for all the info! :thanks: That's really great, I've been busy looking up all those things you mentioned and it looks like it'll be pretty much what you recommended. I've found a few places that sell those bits, and many offer the option of build it yourself or have it put together by them. I was going for the convenience of a put-together system but the more I read the more putting it together myself sounds doable.

 

Also I was leaning towards a Core2Duo (more or less based on the specs of the first K48 system I saw) plus I was thinking the more modern chips would generate less heat maybe, maybe stress the fans less, and if I'm splurging on a "real" PC then I might as well pay a little bit extra for a little bit more oomph. But you recommended the Pentium rather than a Core2Duo, and the alternate system also only lets me choose either Celeron or Pentium, so maybe that's a better match for the rest of the system... problem is all performance is relative and until the system's running and I can use it then it's tricky to tell whether that CPU would be fast enough for what I want etc etc.

 

Anyway, I've got the monitor ordered now at least, and more or less decided on the system, just need to get it ordered. I actually saw the K48 in a real shop this week too which gives me a bit more confidence buying it.

 

Thanks again for the tips! :thumbs:

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Also I was leaning towards a Core2Duo (more or less based on the specs of the first K48 system I saw) plus I was thinking the more modern chips would generate less heat maybe, maybe stress the fans less, and if I'm splurging on a "real" PC then I might as well pay a little bit extra for a little bit more oomph.

 

The Pentium Dual-Core (i.e. the E5x00 and the E6x00 series) is a Core2Duo (in all but the name)! It has nothing to do with the old Pentium 4 generation, it's the same identical 45nm C2D core as the E7xx or E8xx Core2Duo series, it just has less cache, which actually makes it more power efficient and cooler running.

The naming is confusing and lots of people mistake them for the old style Pentium 4 dual-cores that were horrendously inefficient, but I guarantee you they have NOTHING in common other than the name.

The E5300 is actually probably the best chip ever made from a cost to cpu power to heat and power efficiency ratio and you will find it's plenty powerful for almost everything (it's only to weak for hard core gamers and people who do a lot of video transcoding and similar extremely demanding activities).

 

As I mentioned earlier, if you build it yourself, be careful with inserting the RAM into their slots (you have to push evenly with some determination but at the same time you shouldn't flex the motherboard) and the Intel cpu heatsink is a bit fiddly to attach but if you take your time and study things carefully first, then it's not difficult.

 

If you have any doubts about any step, just ask here! :)

 

Before you decide if to go for a pre-assembled system or for building it yourself, you should consider also that in case you build it yourself and you get a dead component it will take you more time to identify the problem and return the defective part, while with a pre-assembled system there is the advantage that any decent shop should have tested everything already before shipping it to you, so the chances of a DOA system are much lower.

This shouldn't scare you from building it yourself, it would only be a problem if you can't afford the extra time you are without a PC while waiting for any defective part to be replaced.

In practice chances that you get a defective part are fairly low.

Edited by tux99
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Yay! Monitor has arrived (1600x1200, looks great), and the rest of the bits are on the way... :D

 

Now time to reveal more of my ignorance and ask another dumb question - should I put Mandriva 32-bit or 64-bit on it? From the specs of the E5300, all it says about 32/64 is a little tick by "Intel 64", with the footnote "64-bit computing requires a processor, chipset, BIOS, operating system, device drivers and applications enabled for Intel 64 architecture." And on Shuttle's site it doesn't appear to mention it at all, so I don't know whether the chipset (apparently "Intel 945GC + ICH7") or the BIOS do support it.

 

Now maybe it doesn't matter. From what (little) I understand about it, a 32-bit OS will run fine on a 64-bit-capable machine, just maybe not quite as fast (depending on the apps) as a 64-bit OS would. But maybe the difference is really small for many things and maybe the extra trouble of incompatible drivers and unavailable plugins would make running 64-bit awkward. And I don't care about supporting 8GB of RAM as my case can't support that much anyway. It just feels like 32-bit was getting old quite a while ago now.

 

And then the next question is, if I install from One (as I probably will because my attempts to use Free on my old laptop failed miserably but One worked every time), it doesn't seem I get a 32/64 choice anyway, so will I get 32 bits that way? In which case, I guess that's ok, right? :unsure:

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Now maybe it doesn't matter. From what (little) I understand about it, a 32-bit OS will run fine on a 64-bit-capable machine, just maybe not quite as fast (depending on the apps) as a 64-bit OS would. But maybe the difference is really small for many things and maybe the extra trouble of incompatible drivers and unavailable plugins would make running 64-bit awkward. And I don't care about supporting 8GB of RAM as my case can't support that much anyway. It just feels like 32-bit was getting old quite a while ago now.

I guess you answered yourself here, personally I use 32bit for the same reasons, the small speed advantage that 64bit provides is not worth the potential extra hassle it provides. I know there are people who use 64bit without issues, but with 2GB of RAM I don't see the point.

Apart from that the Shuttle is perfectly capable of running 64bit Mandriva.

 

And then the next question is, if I install from One (as I probably will because my attempts to use Free on my old laptop failed miserably but One worked every time), it doesn't seem I get a 32/64 choice anyway, so will I get 32 bits that way? In which case, I guess that's ok, right? :unsure:

 

One is 32bit only (and with a 586 kernel which you will have to replace yourself with a 686 kernel manually afterwards), you would have to chose the 64bit Free or Powerpack DVD, or the 32/64bit dual arch CD.

See here for an overview of all Mandriva versions:

http://www.linuxtech.net/news/mandriva_linux_2009.1_spring_is_out.html

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