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We Have Met the Enemy, and He is Us


grendal
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I found this :arrow: :article:http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973...,1236319,00.asp

I can agree with some of this. As a newbie I'd like to see Any distro (preferably mandrake or redhat) ship us all a finished version, with minimal bugs (no ones pefect so why should we expect perfection?). Redhat is now usuing apt-get, and mandrakes gurpmi (?) are steps in the right direction, but I think it could be better. I just want more of the bugs worked out before I put the next release on my box. :lol: I know me though and Ill get it asap after release no matter :?

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that's a good article, & pretty much my feelings about Linux (MDK) at the moment. i've been running & using MDK since June of this year, so i still consider myself quite the Noob.

 

<begin minor rant>

 

but, even though i'm getting more & more comfortable with terminal commands, dependency issues, & such, it's still a nerve wracking & time consuming hassle to get even some basic programs installed & working. i much prefer urpmi or MCC-> install software over tar/gz .configure, make, make install. think of how the total newb feels when trying to install a package that doesn't come in a managable rpm form. and, this has been brought up in other threads, but the "upgrade" option needs some serious looking into. when 9.2 becomes final, i don't want to have to start from scratch with a new install. i want to be able to "upgrade", with a minimum of hassle. it's taken me over 3 months of work, tinkering, some headaches, & lots of learning to get my system to it's current smooth running problem free state. if i do an "upgrade" to 9.2 & it fubars what i've accomplished so far, i'm gonna flip shit! a unified distro, with everybody working from the same page towards a common goal is the only way to go, to truly make MDK (or Suse, or Redhat, etc) a viable alternative OS that people will embrace whole heartedly, Microsoft be damned!

 

<end rant>

 

i've come this far with MDK. i want this to be my sole OS. i hope i can get that wish.

 

Chris

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Chris, you've also summed up my feelings. I started June 1, 2003 with Mandrake 9.1, then switched over to redhat 9.0 August 3, 2003. From what i've seen posted it seems that if you "upgrade" your system becomes fubar. I too want to break away from Microsoft (New op coming soon get your $ ready) but I am no way comfortable enough with Linux to do that. I use both XP and 98se at work, but have stopped using ms office in favor of openoffice and I use Mozilla and opera as my main browsers. just to be more familar with some of my Linux apps.

But the dependecy hell problem drives everyone nuts, I know steps are being taken to correct this, but for anyone new to linux it kills the interest real fast. Especially if they don't find a good forum like this one to ask questions on.

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My first observation is this guy didn't pick the easiest project in the world to get started on, a linux based PVR/lmultimedia juke box. If you didn't know anything about windows could you do this project easily with windows? I doubt it. Linux takes some time to learn but so did windows. How good were you at doing anything even moderately sophisticated in windows after three months? For any noobie I'd say give yourself time. After about a year of running linux you'll be very comfortable in it and despise having to boot into windows at work. You just can't get at anything in windows and you'll find that very frustrating; at least I do. That's not to say that there isn't plenty of room for improvement in linux and software installation is a major area in this regard. Standardized, cross distro configuration tools is probably another for those just migrating from windows. But linux just keeps getting better and better and I'm sure these problems will be solved.

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How many times have any of you installed a windex program, only to find something broken later? How many of you have experienced the aol dlls from hell on a windex box? What we call depends, windex uses dynamic linking libraries, dll's, which are the major area for reasearching a broken windex box. Some dll's do not like other dll's, but are still needed to run the program you just installed. So, the program replaces that other dll, which then doesn't work as well as the original dll!! I know, microbrains has you convinced that there are no problems!!

 

In order for windex to install software, you must give it full access rights to your system. It is a trade-off between ease of use and security. Judging from the number of script kiddies, I opt for security.

 

I submit that mandrake, for the most part, is just as stable as any wimdex release, and really better, becasue it comes with sooo many fully functioning programs, that we easily forget what you got with windex----nutin'!!! :wink:

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How many times have any of you installed a windex program, only to find something broken later? How many of you have experienced the aol dlls from hell on a windex box? What we call depends, windex uses dynamic linking libraries, dll's, which are the major area for reasearching a broken windex box. Some dll's do not like other dll's, but are still needed to run the program you just installed. So, the program replaces that other dll, which then doesn't work as well as the original dll!! I know, microbrains has you convinced that there are no problems!!

 

In order for windex to install software, you must give it full access rights to your system. It is a trade-off between ease of use and security. Judging from the number of script kiddies, I opt for security.

 

I submit that mandrake, for the most part, is just as stable as any wimdex release, and really better, becasue it comes with sooo many fully functioning programs, that we easily forget what you got with windex----nutin'!!! :wink:

 

To add to that awesome post :headbang:

 

In winblows, can you:

 

urmpi <filename>

apt-get <filename>

emerge <filename>

 

?

 

When you want to install all that free windex software out there, how do you get it? :lol:

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How good were you at doing anything even moderately sophisticated in windows after three months?

 

see, that's just the thing. i don't have any idea what the guy that wrote that article is trying to do. i'm talking about simple installation of programs that could send a less determined newbie into apoplexy. i had a very good knowledge of the workings of computers when i jumped into the Linux pool. i read up on Linux as much as i could before i even tried it. still, it wasn't as easy as some people said it was, & i was an MS veteran of 12 years.

 

an example of what i'm talking about is a simple CD burning program. anybody using Window$, for even a few weeks, should be able to install Nero, Roxio, etc. & be able to use it with litle fuss. some of you may remember my threads of frustration concerning K3b. for a newbie, or anybody for that matter, to have to go through the K3b setup routine just to burn CD's is too much, IMHO.

 

K3b......install K3b rpm. hopefully it will tell you it needs cdrdao, cdrecord, & mkisofs. if not, then you'll find out you need them when you try to run setup & have to go back & install them. then, if you have ide cdroms, you have to figure out that you need scsi emulation. (also, there's no help whatsoever that comes with K3b, so you'll be having to figure all this out by Googling or finding a cool forum like this one :wink: ) after figuring out the scsi thing, that means you'll have to edit lil.conf. but wait! supermount also dicks with K3b, so you have to figure out how to disable that. that means you have to edit fstab. but wait! you need to be root to edit fstab & lilo.conf, so hopefully you figure that out. now, we can finally run K3b setup. (we'll worry about figuring how to manually mount & unmount cd's later, after we've already become comfortable with the way supermount handles those jobs) hmmm.....K3b setup. it's not detecting the proper mount points for my cdrom & burner. (hopefully we noticed that, 'cause it doesn't tell you) so we have to reset those mount points. also, they don't tell you not to let K3b write to your fstab, so if you don't stumble upon that little tidbit, you're gonna have to start over again. ok, we've got mount points set, we didn't let K3b edit fstab, we're almost at the end. add users for cdrecord, click finish! but wait......there's a cryptic message that asks you if you want to discard the changes you made! discard the changes? what chnges?! ok, you guess the answer is "yes" & hold your breath. you fire up K3b as user.......ARGGHHHH!!! it doesn't detect my burner or cdrom. ok, don't panic. let's try to reboot, even though we shouldn't have to. reboot.....fire up K3b as user.......ARRGHHH........it detects my cdrom, but not the burner. ok, let's try it as root. hmmmm......it detects both as root. why not as user? could it have something to do with permissions? did i do something wrong in setup? let's run setup again. ARRRGGHHHH!!!! ok, let's post some questions on the MDK forum. wait for answers.....try things.....wait some more........get really frustrated.......& so on & so on & so on. finally, after several days of futility & aggravation, you stumble upon a Google search that tells you you should set cd burning writes in XCDRoast also, 'cause they overwrite K3b settings.......XCDRoast? what's that?! ARRGGGHHH!!!!!

 

to burn a CD in Window$.......insert Nero CD in cdrom. click install. click ok to license agreement. watch it do it's thing. click ok to reboot. read some of the help files if you want, but it's really not necesary 'cause it has a wizard to walk you through things, even though it's so easy to use that you shouldn't need the wizard. start burning CD's 'til your heart's content, all in the course of a few minutes.

 

ok......don't flame me. i was trying to use a litle humour to make my point. but, do you see my point? the whole K3b thing is just one example. i know my way around a computer. thankfully, i found this forum. imagine somebody who doesn't have that knowledge? they'd be turned off by Linux before they even got started, probably never to return again, & relaying their bad experience to anybody they know that's thinking of trying Linux.

 

that's the only point i was trying to make concerning software installation & a need for some comformity there. and the "upgrade" dilema. but, that's another story. i'll write an essay on that when the time comes for me to get 9.2 final.

 

gotta shut down things here at work now. time to go home. WOOOHOOO!!!!

 

Chris

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Here's the thing people have to realize, while I admint that Linux can be difficult at times. It really comes down to the person, what he/she is willing to do.

 

I have a TON of friends that couldn't follow your Nero example, why you ask? I would say it comes down to being some what lazy. Everyone wants to think things should magically apear and work. It doesn't work like that in the Win or Apple world all the time, why should it work like that in the Linux world.

 

Dont take this as I'm bagging on you because I'm not, simply pointing out that windows isn't any easier, people have just been forced to use it longer and have gotten used to it's downfalls and have accepted them as the norm. :wink:

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Chrisz, I certainly didn't mean to slam you. Hope you didn't take it that way. I agree with you to this extent, anyone that doesn't like fiddling around with computers is likely to find linux more frustrating than windows at this point. Maybe others will disagree, but that seems pretty obvious to me. But if you stick with it I guarantee that linux will be worth the effort. As for upgrading your OS, they all suck, linux, windows, you name it. I think it's the nature of the beast; there's just too many variations in configuration, software, etc. for any modern OS upgrade program to handle all of them flawlessly.

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I agree on some points made in this article.

 

Frankly I don't understand why there are so many GNU/Linux distro releases. I like the Debian method: they won't release something before its time.

 

What's the point to upgrade every other day ? Do we really miss now with 9.1 what will be included in 9.2 (I mean new FEATURES, not bug corrections) ?

I'd rather see one single Mandrake release a year, but rock solid.

 

Sometimes I think this release race is not very productive, especially for the newbies. Experts can still work, experiment, fix and improve unstable versions.

 

Down at a specific appt level, that might be another story. It's always nice to use the latest version of an app that you really depend on. But how many apps do we really need up-to-date ?

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I agree with most everything chris z said. I've got about 7 years experience with DOS, 12 years with windoze, some programming experience (cobol), and lots of general computer experience, but I still get frustrated trying to do simple stuff with linux. Like burning a CD...? I can't even try it, cuz I can't even get k3b installed. I remember back when I burned the first CD of my life (with Nero) it took me just one try (with the wizard) to get a perfect CD. After that first time, I decided the wizard was just too dumb, and I just started doing it all myself. Not that hard to click New Compilation, drag some files from the right window to the left window, then click Write CD, sit back for 5 minutes and presto, great CD. Even the Audio Editor, and Properties (fade-ins, fade-outs, etc) are very intuitive and take almost no learning time. I've burned a hundred CDs with nero, and I think I was pretty much an expert after just one evening.

 

Now, I'm not praising windoze or MS - Nero's not an MS program obviously (its too good) :lol:

 

I admit, I did not like windoze back when it was getting popular (1990? 1992?). I had been using DOS for 5 or 6 years by then, and could do everything fast with dos - didn't want to learn the dumb new windoze thing... I don't think I even touched windoze until 3.1 had been out for quite a while...

 

Maybe its just that now I'm older, f/t job, family, blah blah, - like I want to come home after a long day of work and screw around for 6 hours trying to just install a stupid program under linux.

 

If I was say 20 years old or less, and no job, no family, getting money handed to me from mommy & daddy, with 12-16 hours a day to screw around, maybe I'd be a linux geek by now. Not that I'm saying anyone here is that way... :lol:

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pmpatrick....cybrjackle........

 

no offense taken whatsoever. didn't think that either of you were trying to diss me. (i have sarah31 to take care of that! :wink: ).

 

i agree that Linux is a rock solid OS, can do anything that Window$ can (& then some), is a great learning experience, & many other superlatives to boot. if i thought it was that much of a pain, i would have given up during the install!

 

i just tend to agree with some points in that guy's article. the various distros need to be more uniform. they need to focus on bugs, installation procedures, "upgrade", etc., & they need try to make them as bullet proof & trouble free as possible, as opposed to just trying to come out with the latest greatest program that can do what ten other programs can already do. know what i mean? i mean, how many CD burning progs are their for Linux? a dozen? 2 dozen? 3 dozen? choice is good, but it becomes ridiculous after a point. all have different setup schemes, some are gui, some not, some rpm's, some .tar's. why can't somebody take the best of those CD burning programs, focus on the weak points, & come up with 1 or 2 or even 3 great Cd burning progs that work & install without a hitch? same with media players. MPlayer.......Xine....Kaboodle....Zapping.....AviPlay..........they're just a few that i know of. all have quirks & problems of their own. MPlayer can be a bear to set up if you're new to it.

 

i'm just looking at this from the Noob point of view. i worked my way through the most difficult part of the Linux learning curve. many people won't even bother trying to get past install. face it, MS/Window$ has spoiled a whole generation of computer users. for Linux to ever take a good foot hold & make some inroads as the OS of choice, or just a viable alternative for the unexperienced, they're gonna have to make some things easier to do & makes things have a more uniform feel & appeal.

 

i do have hope for that to be a reality. i won't give up on Linux, even if an upgrade hoses my setup. i'll be pissed, i'll grumble, i gather my composure, start over, & hopefully will have learned something in the process. but............that's me. that's the way i am. many people don't feel that way, & that's just gonna be more people that will never know how good this OS can be.

 

gotta pay some bills now. (contrary to popular belief, i do pay for things.....) :lol:

 

Chris

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I've been messing around with linux off and on for about 2 years, but I only have a couple months of actual experience during those 2 years...

 

I admit I haven't really tried to sit down & devote my full potential to learning it (too much other stuff to do - family - kids, job...). I also grumble about it, but I still want to learn it and haven't given up yet.

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k3b is a good example of something that should be easier to do. The only reason I fumbled through it the first time was because I read all about it before I installed it. But, since urpmi, I really have not had that much trouble with depends! And I do not set it up for "automatic". I want to see what is needed in my box before it just happens.

 

If windex were just easier, that would be fine. If it were just expensive, I suppose that would be ok. (Everyone is already duped into thinking that your computer must be expensive! :roll: ) But to sacrifice my privacy and the sovereignty of my own computer just so I can use it without thinking is not acceptable to me. I choose to think and to keep my box my own. I am not criticizing anyone, just expressing how I see things. :wink:

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