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Dumb Adds Coming to Mdk 9.2


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MDK's ad info site has changed their statements no less than 3 times today. They originally said that all versions will have ads, so I don't know what to believe. It looks like they have change their mind once again, and it looks like the only way we will find out is when 9.2 is released.

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MDK's ad info site has changed their statements no less than 3 times today.  They originally said that all versions will have ads, so I don't know what to believe.  It looks like they have change their mind once again, and it looks like the only way we will find out is when 9.2 is released.

 

They made a Beta1 anouce, had a lot of bug report, the Beta2 was better and no it seems the RC is ready: no ads on boxs mdk, no ads on screensaver, no intrusive ads.;-)

 

roland

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CrashDamage, the point is that they are not focusing on improving customer service! They are still looking for fast money instead of smart money.

Well, you've seen my posts, I have no problem with the ads, but I do agree with you on this, Ixthusdan - they should focus on customer service first. Anyone who has used the Mandrake Shop in the last few months will agree.

 

The Club still seems to function pretty well. We don't get too much for our cash, but other then that it is cool.

 

I think that the club-members should be able to DOWNLOAD an ads-free version. Let the freeloaders have the ads, so what? I am currently using 9.0 download, I did not buy it and I know I have no right to make any demands or be complacent, that is how free stuff works. I was also not a club member when I downloaded it (or copied the cds :wink: ).

 

Back to the top though: Mandy would be making more money if their service was better, and with this I agree :P

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for those of you who may have missed this, here's MDK's official statement about the whole affair:

 

http://www.mandrakelinux.com/en/mdkads.php3

 

if that's the case, i'm not too concerned (personally). it's all easily removed & if it helps them with much needed cash flow, so be it.

 

Chris

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Mandrake need's money. If somebody pays them for a one-time add, it's that persons own fault if they get nothing out of it. Either way, it's an add, and it's more money for Mandrake to stay afloat, and personally I support it just has I've always supported them (even buying a mandrake club account when I don't run Mandrake anymore-well, until 9.2 comes out and I put it on my server). Mandrake is just looking for a way to get more income, since an open source business model can be hard to keep afloat.

 

Im not so certain.

What Mandrake needs is a business plan and a steady flow of income.

They owe money and if they don't want to loose the trust and support of their financiers they need to show a plan for the longer term.

 

If the advertisers get nothing for their money they will stop. Mandrake will have diverted developer time to something stupid and the distro will suffer!

Customer support will be redefined as 'advertising customers' etc. etc.

 

Soulse made a good point about the club.

What do you actually get?

The same goes for box sets, you don't get anything except 2-3$ worth of CD's and some printed manuals.

They have no idea of a credit for the club or support. All that is extra.

Basically they have only one thing of value, the distro. They have no support, no anything and the distro is GPL'd.

 

The only possible way for them to make money (long term) is by enouraging people to BUY the distro becuase it gives them something the download doesn't. They are applying the opposite, they putting adware into the free version.

This just doesn't work!!!!

 

Opera is a great browser. the free version does ads. Thats it... if I want it Ill pay but I ain't using the adware version.

As it happens I also like firebird so .. ho hum... gee, Ill just use that instead!!! Its not so much the cost as the hassle.

I know If i try and BUY the MDK boxset online I face delays and non-comminication etc. going to a store is the only way it is guaranteed and they can't get that right.

So, its presently easy option.... which is download.

I distrust the adware. I might be wrong but that doesn't matter. I associate adware and spyware and so do many so they will end uyp spending more to advertise and defend themselves in peoples eyes than they gain!!!

 

And for how much 7,500 ... so to make say 3/4 of a million which might help em stay afloat they need to sell 100 ADS. 100 ... ?????

 

Lets say they mange to squeeze 25 in somewhere its for 6 months so they generate 187,500 every 6 months or 370,000 a year. Then they need a whole loada people working on it.

Lets say they get paid 40,000 a year thats about 95,000 a year to the company with tax, medical etc. they aren't getting many before theyre loosing money on it.

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Some good points have been brought up, some not so good points, and some worthless ones.

 

1- Mandrake's business model is indeed questionable, but they cannot go the RH way, since RH is big on corporate support, and Mandrake aims at the home user. Would we rather have them go the SuSE, or worse, LindowsOS way?????

I'm guessing not...

I agree, partially, with Ixthusdan and Gowator. On the other hand, instead of spending money on marketing, I prefer them to spend on development for now. And we all know they need to squash more bugs. The only way out of this tight spot is when you have more money, which they can't get due to their chapter 11 equivalent AFAIK.

2- some complain about the fact that even boxed user buyers get bookmarks on their browsers.

Buy a newspaper. Read the ads. They are there. Complain what you want, that you paid for it. They are still there.

If we can easily turn off or ignore the ads, and so the advertiser is wasting money, then you haven't understood advertisement, or spam which is unfortunately still around, -- proves that even that is making money.

Btw, ever check the standard bookmarks on Opera/Netscape. Think those are there for free???? I heard no one compain there, and the banner on Opera is more intrusive (flashing/moving, getting swapped, etc) to me (even though I got good at ignoring it) than the default page on a webbrowser that I reset, or ads on a screensaver (which won't be in 9.2 as has been mentioned) that I don't use.

3- Mandrake developers must eat. They are FLOSS developers. Those working to give most a free lunch.

4- no one has seen the results, judge after, not before

5- this could be a good thing, depending on the advertiser.

It could be a triple win situation: namely, if the ads are from hardware vendors of hardware that is well supported in (mandrake) linux, especially in the case of those products that you still have to check for if they are supported (scanners, printers, all-in-one scanner/printer devices, webcams, more or less exotic stuff basically, the stuff you have to search the web for to find out if it will work):

-win for Mandrake, money through ads (hey, if there are so many freeloaders)

-win for the hardware company, sell more goods

-win for the user, no trouble to find well supported hardware.

 

In any case, as long as more money means more developers, and they stay true to the FLOSS spirit (which implies also that the more advanced user will be able to disable/get around the ads -- those who could switch to another distro will have an easier time just deleting the bookmarks, select a different screensaver and set another default page; those who couldn't only have costly alternatives like Xandros, Lycoris, LindowsOS. Ok, maybe SuSE which you can copy for free, but not download in the form of iso's.) it's fine with me.

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Btw, ever check the standard bookmarks on Opera/Netscape. Think those are there for free???? I heard no one compain there, and the banner on Opera is more intrusive (flashing/moving, getting swapped, etc) to me (even though I got good at ignoring it) than the default page on a webbrowser that I reset, or ads on a screensaver (which won't be in 9.2 as has been mentioned) that I don't use.

 

Ahem, re-read it carefully. I did complain specifically about Opera and thats why I don't use it. Erm that and the fact Firebird is free (in the sense of hassle free) whereas I'd have to actually get off my ass to get opera without adds.

Distro's are the same IMHO. If I have to do a load of work to the 9.2 that I pay for ... well I mightest well use another distro....if its easier!

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In business, there is indeed a dynamic tension between r&r and marketing products produced. I am sympathetic to planned r&r. But without at least an attempt to market, I have no fix on mandrake's ability to balance r&r with marketing. What I do see is, again, an excellent product without a plan, and that bothers me.

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Btw, ever check the standard bookmarks on Opera/Netscape. Think those are there for free???? I heard no one compain there, and the banner on Opera is more intrusive (flashing/moving, getting swapped, etc) to me (even though I got good at ignoring it) than the default page on a webbrowser that I reset, or ads on a screensaver (which won't be in 9.2 as has been mentioned) that I don't use.

 

Ahem, re-read it carefully. I did complain specifically about Opera and thats why I don't use it. Erm that and the fact Firebird is free (in the sense of hassle free) whereas I'd have to actually get off my ass to get opera without adds.

Distro's are the same IMHO. If I have to do a load of work to the 9.2 that I pay for ... well I mightest well use another distro....if its easier!

 

Read the whole thread, someone mentioned that this was not acceptable and/or useless if one can turn it off. This wasn't aimed at you, since you just use another product.

But using opera without paying, then still ripping out the banner ad is Wrong!

 

Anyway, if you have to do a load of work for 9.2, then don't switch, just stop paying.

I'm not sure how this is going to come out, personally I think very few things will actually change.

And I think hardware vendors could really sell more stuff by making clear their products work well with linux.

 

All in all, I think Mandrake just has to try things out. If they make more money but lose users, so be it.

If they lose clubmembers, they will have to find something to make those come back for Mdk10.0 or so.

In any case, if they make more money, the distro will get better. This is all that counts to me. I don't care if they get their marketing act together, or if they get a real business plan or not; now they want to harvest for having many freeloaders, with possibly some discomfort for paying clubmembers etc. Big deal.

All I care about is if Mandrake stays GPL. No matter how much advertising, if it remains GPL you can do something about it. Hard or easy, with linux, someone will make it easy (the right script, and it is done).

The day Mandrake is no longer GPL (lock-in strategy, I wouldn't mind much if they pack Nvidia/Ati drivers with the shipment), is the day I install something else.

Until then, I will recommend and use Mandrake, no problem.

 

Remember, we like Mandrake as a distro. We want to continue to use Mandrake. I don't care about Mandrake's marketshare. I don't care about their management, or their marketing. (Heck, with my website and more than 27000 visitors in just a few months, mostly even from IE users on windows, I probably am part of their marketing, without them knowing. Just as this board is part of that marketing in some ways.)

I just care that Mandrake Linux stays free/GPL, and that it will continue to exist and be improved.

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Hmm, howabout granting access to servers (which would cost bandwidth, so fair is fair) only open for clubmembers, at least the first couple of weeks (months?) after a new release comes out?

And of course, in that case: making the clubmember edition free from ads or so?

 

Completely pulling the download edition except for clubmembers is not so hot, most would just download it from elsewhere and think that that is fine since it's GPL. Actually, it would be fine. And they'd just think: it was hard enough to get this, no need to part with any money...

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Hey guys I agree on that.... pull the plug and charge for BW... or clubmembers.

 

This is what worries me! that you guys come up with better business plans overnight!

 

However, what theyre missing is the steady income/revenue.

It doesn't matter if its advertisers who advertise once and don't come back or clubmembers.

 

The point with Opera was I installed it, tried it, liked it .... BUT not enough to buy it. To be honest it isn't the cost its the hassle. I'm busy enough as it is without this!

 

I also tried installing gnome meeting last night BUT

Yeah I have a philips PWC so i need to recompile the drivers...

Only I know im recomiling the kernel for 4GB support so I know its wasted time....

So I didn't.

 

This got me thinking about the Upgrade Option for Mandrake. Its really tiresome... just as you get it the way you wanted and with your drivers compiled as you wanted etc.

I need to add support for growfs (for DVD-RW) ... etc... BUT I won't do it until I have my kernel compiled and safe.

 

As aRtee always points out the manufactuerers should be writing drivers....

Take NVIDIA.... the graphics driver works a treat... great..

The nforce stuff is a bit behind ... but given what theyve done for the graphics sets I think it will get there ..

 

BUT.. the big problem with Mandrake as a usable distro is the lack of continuity through updates.....

 

Its all or nothing... new install or stick with the old one.

I realise they need to keep selling new versions but ...

If they just got the UPGRADE option working .... I could keep all my hard work.

 

Also: The emphasis on the wizards is mainly single machine....

I know a lot of people are lucky to have one but I find it really tiring ...

Just check out the number of posts on here for Internet conneciton sharing NOT working.

My point here is they use a very weird shorewall setup and if it goes wrong its major hassle to sort out.

Before I dedicated a box to be the router/web etc. I seemed to be pouring time into this until I thought to hell with the Mandrake setup for shorewall and downloaded the shorewall setup.

 

I used e-smith and its completely stable, never needs rebooting unless I take out memory etc. and it just works. If I want to upgrade I can .. I don't need a reinstall.

 

So going back to Opera.

I chose not to use it. I certainly couldn't be bothered hacking it or whatever to get rid of banners and much as i liked it I couldn't be bothered paying for it when I can just urpmi firebird.

 

This is the problem with Mandrake (IMHO) ....

Some users get bad installs becuase of their hardware ...

Some users try Mandrake but say Internet Connection Sharing keeps messing up... a lot of people will reinstall and then they have the option of a lot of other distro's.

Some noobies will get disenchated and just go back to windows and next time someone says try linux they'll say 'no tried it'

 

Thus, and I did this with esmith... I had the option reinstall Mandy or try something else. Esmith is a single CD and that made the decision for me.

what worries me most is the users who get turned away from LINUX by problems with an installer etc.

 

Anyway, if you have to do a load of work for 9.2, then don't switch, just stop paying. 

I know, Ive supported them for years.... waiting for a few things to be sorted out but most of it has got worse, especially customer support.

 

I don't mind paying, i don't wanna freeload but I want some justification to myself what Im paying for.

Like I think Ixthusdan thinks... (sorry if Im wrong Ix) but they have to sort out their distribution channels and stat selling the product to the mass market if they are going to survive.

I know at the moment they need a quick buck but they need to be more aware of how this will affect their long term revenue stream.

 

For me the UPGRADE/INSTALL thing is a paradigm...

Make it easier for a user to upgrade than to switch distro. Once they have happy customers who are happy with their product they can keep going.

 

Hows this for an idea.

The download version gets the UPGRADE part taken out.

If you buy the powerpack or any boxset or pay on line they make a bullet proof UPGRADE.

 

Thus people can try for free but when a new version comes out you pay for the simple guaranteed - no data loss - single click UPGRADE.

 

But to do this they need to sort out their distribution channels and make sure for instance the CD1 is replaced with patches every time they do major changes.

Plus the changes are packaged and you can buy the CD for 10Euros or something.

 

Maybe the freeloaders wouldn't buy but all the serious people will.

 

The day Mandrake is no longer GPL

Well it isn't. You get acrobat and other FREE but not GPL on the powerpack CD's and commercial software too.

No problem to me because the working distro without the fancy add ons works. Like you point out ATi/NVIDIA can go on another CD.

 

I'm a diehard Mandrake fan if theyre starting to piss me off then something is wrong.... My main concerns though are customer support and half working and undocumented wizards. When you put these together theyre a recipe for disaster in the long term. Especialy to the sort of people who got sick of MicroShaft.

 

Perhaps Ive just outgrown it ??? DOlsen/cybrjackle .. here I come ???

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Why don't hardware manufacturers support linux? Marketing!

Why do people still think linux is some weird computer geek thing? Marketing!

Why is everyone constantly confused about "free" vs. "freedom" in software? Marketing!

Why don't more people choose linux? Marketing!

Why does mandrake have continuous financial problems? Marketing!

How does any business know that they will have customers tomorrow? Marketing!

What will make or break any distrobution? Marketing!

 

What is it that Mandrake can't seem to grasp? You know the answer!

What happens if you take marketing out of a business? Bad financials, poor empolyee relations, deterioration of product, begging for money, gasping for air, and death. Yikes!!!!

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Just tag this after Ixthusdans post....

 

What happens if you take marketing out of a business? Bad financials, poor empolyee relations, deterioration of product, begging for money, gasping for air, and death. Yikes!!!!

 

poor employee relationships....

Of course, no one knows where the product is going. How can people work contructively if they have no real direction?

 

Bad financials.... well, the investors don't know where theyre going either.... you don't need to be a roicket scientist/tycoon to realise investing in a company that has no direction is a long shot!!

 

But I think I would take it further than Ixthusdan...

Marketing is one aspect of a business plan.

It concenrs marketing your product not only to the customers but to the investors and your staff.

My impression is the staff don't have a clue where the company is headed, the marketing/publicity of Mandrake certainly doesn't help because they just seem to be throwing ideas into the air.

 

I once had to manage a dept in a company that had downsized from 5000 people to 300 people over 10 years.

In reality the company was on the up (in that country) and people had reletively safe jobs.

 

BUT the company had been making positive but meaningless statements for ten years. The boy who cried wolf.

 

I had to assess my team yearly and aftwer the first year I mde contructive criticism... about how they could spend a bit more time to do something properly and document it and next year it would be less of a task. Almost everyone had the same answer ... why plan for next year when we might not even be here....

 

Sad ... but true in their eyes.

The company was terrible to work in.... people didn't even get dressed properly. That is they would wander round looking glazed and having their shirt hanging out. It had become a place to go for 8 hours a day and get through.

 

The place hadn't been repainted in 10 years and looked neglected. Everyone visiting felt this. they saw dis-spirited staff and neglect.

 

My guess is Mandrake is getting this way.

People turn up and wonder what direction the company will jerk today....

banner advertising...rushed releases ...certainly not customer support and a bright future.

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I didn't read through all the opinions but I'm just going to drop down my $.02 and duck out of here.

 

Who cares, it's open source. If you don't like the adds while your installing, turn away. If you don't like the browser links, delete them. If you don't want a screensaver that say's <whatever>, delete it. I didn't read all of it so some of what I said might not be in there, doesn't really matter. The point is MDK needs cash flow and there exploring an alternative. Do they need to listen to there customers, sure they do, with out them they wont get far. Do they need to fix there sales department, from what I hear YEP. I've always downloaded it but I've heard time and time again that there SALES is horrible.

 

Anyway, moral of the story is could careless if they put adds and some browsers links, I'll just get rid of them if I don't want them there. :wink:

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