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Really, it all comes down to what you make your self do.  You could even learn linux on "Lindows" if you really wanted to.

 

Yup. You could learn Linux on Windows, if you really wanted to as well.

 

cygwin :cheeky:

 

Yes. Did you notice the link in my post? ;)

 

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SoulSe, Gentoo isn't hard. Just read the documentation. It takes you through it step by step. My grandma could install it, if she knew what a computer was.

 

No, I'm an idiot, but I had a good guess none the less. Currently I'm running slack :wink:

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SoulSe, Gentoo isn't hard. Just read the documentation. It takes you through it step by step. My grandma could install it, if she knew what a computer was.
Right. But it is more 'difficult' then Mandrake, ergo I will probably learn more by installing and using it.

 

The idea is to move onto Debian after that, once I know a little more. I am also ordering all my distros on cd these days, no more free-loading for me. If a box is too expensive, then I buy cds from linuxcds.org or somewhere else. I've had my honeymoon with Linux, it's time to get serious now.

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I've had my honeymoon with Linux, it's time to get serious now

 

Ha. Me too. I've been casually screwing around with linux off & on for over a year, but just recently decided to actually get serious and learn it.

After learning the basics on RH, I'll probably buy some debian CDs from someplace that donates a portion of the money to debian.

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Got my CDs in the mail late yesterday, so I should be able to get going tonight. It is a maintenance release of 1.4, time stamped 20030911 - so it looks like I am one MR behind?

 

A question on emerge: can I emerge myself up to the latest release? And can you emerge up point releases? Like, could I emerge from 1.4 - 1.4.1 when it comes out?

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9-11 is the GOOD GRP images, so you should be good to GO! While your following the install instructions for Stage 3 & GRP (if you don't want to download and compile for days) DO NOT do the "emerge sync" (Step 9.1)

 

Once you have your Stage 3 GRP installed, you can get up2date with "emerge sync" & then "emerge -u world" that will get you up2date.

 

Warning you will have a lot of /etc files that will want to be overided so you will need to read through them can make sure you don't render your system useless! Welcome to Gentoo :wink:

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Another Warning  - doing emerge -u world could take a long time if there are loads of packages...

 

Good call. Read some of the DOC's on there site for Portage and what not, it will give you a good understanding of things you can do. Say you want to emerge -u world, but don't want to leave you internet connection on during the day for what ever reason (your on dial-up right?) you can alway's use "-f" option for "download" only, that way you can kick it off at night and let it download all the packages while you are asleep. "emerge -uf kde" for example, after an "emerge sync" that will only download the latest kde packages 3.1.4. Then you can compile it later with "emerge -u kde".

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Really, it all comes down to what you make your self do.  You could even learn linux on "Lindows" if you really wanted to.

 

pretty well sums it up. the reason many may not learn as much in RH or MDK (and other "user friendly" distros) is that they are not force to. the commandline or other core processes are "hidden".

 

persoanlly i am not really fond of this approach. while i do like less meanial work such as telling the system what devices i have there are great advantages to knowing more of the core of any OS. Namely your dependency on other and paying for those services is diminished. while software/os creators may not like this hit to the wallet it should free up resources for making a better product. in theory.

 

in general that is the benefit of open source. we all learn to be useful and not a burden on the computer industry.

 

I agree 8)

:wink: I agree.

 

Actually I think distro's like Lindows kinda share some heritiage with WinBlows....

You can get it running very easy but then the gap between that and making your most common command regedit is pretty huge.

 

Then when you do try and modify its undocumented and you stand a big chance of breaking it.

 

Learning the core stuff is really important and in several stages.

First you gotta know there is a file called XF86Config and that is what the wizards edit....

Then you gotta work out what it all means....

Same goes for smb.conf or anything else.

 

Ultimately the graphical tools are always good at getting it working in the least efficient manner.

 

Diskdrake is the biggest waster of diskspace since FAT. and the Mandrake SAMBA stuff. ....

 

Ultimately if you aren't editing the files by hand you aren't exploiting the full potential of linux....that might be great for noobies or grandmothers but for those seeking to understand their OS its not.

 

Then there are the intermediate level utilities like :

Webmin (Oh how I love that tool)

LinuxConf (especially the NW stuff)

SWAT

and possbily the exception to the above

XFRee86 -configure

 

The reason its an exception is you have to manually add the others yourself whereas XFree built this in making it difficult for Mandrake to take out.

 

Then once you get past this level you have the tunefs and hdparm ....

 

One reason I dislike the Mandy wizards is because if they don't work you are truly in a mess.

Webmin/Linux conf use pretty standard tools and they can be combined with the CLI. I often use say WEBMIN to check the hand tuning becuase its easier to see the httpd.conf, shorewall.conf or whatever than the CLI.

But the wizards are all fire and forget missiles, occaisionally capable of mistaking the FOF signature and causing friendly fire casualties.

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BUT - most PC users (and therefore most windows users) don't want to know this much about their OSes. We are all comfortable with learning what goes on in our system - but tha vast majority of computer users won't be.

 

If we want Linux to succeed on the desktop then we must have "easy to use" distros that do hide the complexity from the user - while still allowing you to administrate your system as much as you need to...

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BUT - most PC users (and therefore most windows users) don't want to know this much about their OSes.  We are all comfortable with learning what goes on in our system - but tha vast majority of computer users won't be.

 

If we want Linux to succeed on the desktop then we must have "easy to use" distros that do hide the complexity from the user - while still allowing you to administrate your system as much as you need to...

 

That's what Lycoris and Lindows are.

 

What is really painful for me is when Mandrake alter someone elses default settings or config for their wizards.

Granted when it works fine ....

 

What really threw me was 2 days trying to get the connection sharing to also work as a gateway AND have local access.

 

I looked at the shorewall documentation and it made no sense in the light of the mandrake generated config. The shorewall website comments on this particularly diplomatically .... (with a Mandrake users click here).

 

After two days of messing about trying to convince the wizard to somehow be a gateway and a workstation I gad it working in 10 mins using the shorewall example conf files.

 

It wasn't just that, it messed about deinstalling and reinstalling the pppoe stuff and got itself stuck in endless circles. Ultimately the Mandrake wizard can't do what I wanted but it doesn't say so.....

They presume its EITHER a gateway OR workstation, not both.

 

Now I don't mind the limitations BUT they could leave you in a position of being able to make sense of the documentation which shorewall have gone to considrable effort to produce. Theres just no way to rationalise the quick start documents from shorewall the the settings Mandrake uses.

 

Unless Mandrake WANT to be a Lycoris or Lindows they should start repecting the GPL'd apps they use and not modifying them to give a bad impression. I was convinced shorewall was a bunch of $$$$ from the Mandrake settings.... Then once I found the webpage that told me to overwrite ALL the mandy configured stuff it suddenly made sense.

 

If they are aiming at the people who want the control over their system taken out of their hands then maybe they should follow the trend and rename it Landrake and I can go and find another Distro.

 

This gets deeper!!!

I also use SME server.... again highly modified and limited becuase of this. BUT ... it doesn't pretend to be anything else. Its a it does this...if you don't like it choose something else distro....

Ironically the SME server replaced my Mandrake Server/Workstation completely...

 

So what Im saying is they should keep to the script...and make their wizards work with standard configuration files and provide a bit of documentation on their limits and where to go next.

Tell users that if they make a big partition harddrake will assign 5% to root. Tell them they can live with it of learn how to use mkfs or tunefs.

 

This is a fundamental part of every man page...

They always have a files section saying what is modified....except of course the MDK tools!

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I thought that part of the point of mandrake was to be an easy to use/configure distro - perhaps not as windows like as others, but essentially...

 

Isn't it the distro we would all recommend to new users? Would we all recommend it to advanced users? (I realise that many people here might well do - but not as many as would answer yes to the first question...)

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I thought that part of the point of mandrake was to be an easy to use/configure distro - perhaps not as windows like as others, but essentially...

 

Isn't it the distro we would all recommend to new users?  Would we all recommend it to advanced users? (I realise that many people here might well do - but not as many as would answer yes to the first question...)

 

I still recommend Mandrake to new users who want to learn Linux themselves, yes. But if I am setting up a system for someone who doesn't plan to learn at all, I put Debian on it, and maintain it myself. It's easier for me that way.

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