Against software patents in Europe

[static]

Does anyone else find it a gray area though? Like how do you differenciate between a "hard" product (that originated as an idea) i.e. something tangible and a "soft" product (also an idea) like software programs when it comes to patents? Should anyone be allowed to be the only one to do something, even if it is your idea? That sort of goes against the monopoly rules we try to hold against our favorite tyrant M$, doesn't it?

 

There's a great article on newsforge right now by Matt Asay that talks about this. To quote him:

In the case of software, large software vendors are struggling to figure out how to keep their IP and associated revenues from being cannibalized by open source software. Record labels and movie studios, for their part, believe that peer-to-peer piracy is destroying their ability to charge for the art they produce. Both are wrong. Neither has an intellectual property problem. Instead, both have a payment problem.

 

Now, having pointed out that article, I'd like to say I agree with him for the most part. (this won't make sense unless you've read it) I just wonder how the "service" fits in when you're talking about software written by one person. It would be hard to "provide" people with anything unless you have teams of troubleshooters, etc. Dunno, seems it only fits the business world maybe. Then again, the more I think about, the less I can find very wrong with Matt's ideas in this article.

[Ixthusdan]

Yes, I understand a "gray" area. But I also am a little more hard-core on the production side. An idea is meaningless without expression into reality. So, "unrealized" ideas (I got the from the movie Twister!) are open game as far as I am concerned. I guess this doesn't bother me because it means that thinkers that are not doers must work with people who are, an atmosphere of coordinated effort. Now music is a little different.

 

I am a musician. I play tenor and alto sax, flute, and keyboard. I can play parts that I have heard without music. Most musicians can. So I do not need to "pay" anyone to "play." Try to get me to not play by ear!! The whole notion is insane. But musicians deserve to be paid for what they offer to the world, right? I believe so. But the musical notes is not what they offer. It is themselves in performance. I do not sound like Kenny G. (He plays soprano!) I sound like me. All musicians are unique. In my opinion, the recording industry has destroyed music because the musicians think that a dead recording is what they are. It isn't. They must offer themselves in performance. This notion agrees with my idea that inventors must also produce. Musicians must perform. To own a set of note or a chord progression for all time is , well, more hollywood than it is music. :wink:

[static]

Well said. (obviously a musician myself)

 

I personally feel, considering (as you said) the performance is key, that the recording should be free. I'll send a cd or two to anyone who askes, some tunes are downloadable on the webpage (see sig ;) ) because I don't want a record deal. I'd like people to like us, not our poster, and I just want people to come to the show! We're better live, and playing shows is my favorite thing to do, over even partying or sleeping. This works with the current p2p scheme, and best of all, if you suck: the media can't make you a Britany Spears just because you're slutty :) If people don't want to go to your show - what have you done to deserve what being a famous musicain pays?

 

Obviously it's different for classical musicains or people headed for orchestras or backing bands or whatever, but they get paid differently anyway. Currently a band usually makes maybe a dollar for each $25 CD sold :roll: But they make around $25 x 20,000 when they play a stadium for about $50 a head. That's $500 000 for 2 hours of work! I say screw the record companies. It's not like the other $25 of the ticket goes to a company for nothing - it goes to paying roadies, renting the stadium, travel costs, etc...

[jeanackle]

Hello again,

 

I'd very much like to comment on the last posts, but, as I said, I have no time now... Still, I came by to share, with those of you who haven't signed FFII's newsletters, their latest (not the only one since the one that started this topic). So here it goes:

 

FFII News -- For Immediate Release -- Please Redistribute

+++ +++ +++ +++ +++ +++ +++ +++ +++ +++ +++ +++ +++ +++

 

  EU Software Patent Directive plans shelved amid massive 

demonstrations

 

        Brussels 2003/09/01

 

      For Immediate Release

 

  On Aug 28th, the European Parliament postponed its vote on the 

proposed

  EU Software Patent Directive. The day before, approximately 500 

persons

  had gathered for a rally beside the Parliament in Brussels, 

accompanied

  by an online demonstration involving more than 2000 websites. The 

events

  in and near the Parliament were extensively in many news channels,

  including tv and radio, across Europe and the world. Within a few 

days,

  the petition calling the European Parliament to reject software

  patentability accumulated 50,000 new signatures.

 

Details

 

  Last Wednesday, August 27th, several organisations called for a

  demonstration in Brussels and for an on-line demonstration against 

the

  proposed EU "software patent directive" COM(2002)92, euphemistically

  titled "on the patentability of computer-implemented inventions".

 

  Citizens demonstrated in front of the European Parliament, wearing 

black

  t-shirts and launching black balloons "to symbolise their sorrow for 

the

  innovation that the EU would lose if it approved a monopoly regime 

on

  computer based solutions as the Commission and the JURI report 

propose",

  as one of the organisers explained. Surrounded by banners and patent

  tombstones, several speeches were held and a pantomime play was 

performed

  which showed the EU bureaucracy helping wealthy corporations to 

strangle

  small innovative software enterprises.

 

  In spite of the short notice (it was only announced one week in 

advance),

  the online demonstration, calling to substitute homepages by a 

protest

  page for all of Wednesday, was followed by over 2800 websites. Among

  those were important websites such as those of the biggest Spanish 

labour

  union Comisiones Obreras, the Andalusian CGT union, the French 

SPECIS;

  large associations of computer professionals such as ATI.es, AI2 and

  Prosa.dk; user associations like SSLUG, Hispalinux, Asociación de

  Internautas, AFUL and GUUG; software projects like Apache 

(developers of

  the most used web server in the world, with over 25 million

  installations), PHP (a very popular programing language), the two 

main

  free desktop projects (KDE and GNOME); operating system 

distributions

  LinEx, Slackware, Debian, Knoppix and Mandrake; civil rights

  associations, distributed development platform Savannah (hosting 

over

  1500 projects), companies, weblogs, personal websites...

 

  The strike coincided with initiatives by new players, including 

national

  associations of SMEs, national labor unions, the internet sections 

of the

  French Parti Socialiste and German Social Democratic Party, and a

  [16]group of economists, all of whom sent letters to members of the

  European Parliament, warning them of faulty reasoning in the JURI 

report

  and catastrophic consequences for the European economy.

 

  The Parliament was already [17]divided in June, when it 

[18]postponed

  the decision to September. The massive protest among computer

  professionals, software companies and computer users, and its echo 

in

  the press on the Internet, radio and television, appear to have

  further eroded the directive's support in the European Parliament 

and

  encouraged various party groups to come out with new amendment

  proposals. The presidents of the transnational groups decided in a

  meeting on thursday afternoon to postpone the debate again from the

  planned European Parliament plenary session of Monday September 1st.

  The debate and vote may now take place in the next session 

(September

  22-25) or at a later date, subject to decision next week. The

  directive has been controversial since its publication on 

2002-02-20,

  and decisions have been delayed already seven times from the 

initially

  scheduled vote of 2002-12-16.

 

  During a conference in the European Parliament on Wednesday 

14.00-16.00,

  Reinier Bakels, a dutch law scholar who had written a study on the

  directive at the order of the European Parliament, criticised:

 

    This directive proposal brings no clarity and no harmonisation. It 

is

    unclear and contradictory both on its aims and on the means of

    achieving these aims. The European Parliament can not be expected 

to

    repair such a fundamentally broken directive proposal. The best 

thing

    the Parliament can do is to send this proposal back to the 

Commission

    and demand that an interdisciplinary group of experts should work 

out a

    new proposal.

 

  Hartmut Pilch, president of FFII and speaker of the Eurolinux

  Alliance, agreed to this, but added:

 

    We hope that MEPs can, during the coming 3 weeks, understand that

    almost every single article and every single recital of this 

directive

    needs major amendments, if a clear limitation of patentability is 

to be

    achieved. We have proposed a set of amendments[26] which could do 

the

    job and has received backing by a large part ot the interested

    communities[27]. Many of these amendments have already been or are

    being tabled by MEPs from various political groups. By voting for 

these

    amendments, MEPs can prompt the Commission and the Council to come 

up

    with a new proposal, this time based on a serious assessment of 

the

    interests of all parties and a verifiable solution to the 

problems,

    without any more doublespeak or ambiguous terminology.

 

Annotated Links

 

  -> [19]Draft Press Release 200000

          Report about the successes of the Demo in BXL, focussing on 

the

          rise in number of petition signatures.

 

  -> [20]CORDIS 2003-08-28: Draft legislation on patenting 

computerised

          inventions will stifle innovation, claim protestors

          An official EU news agency reports about the demo, with an

          interview of Peter Gerwinski from FFII

 

          see also [21]CORDIS: MEPs vote to tighten up rules on

          patentability of computerised inventions

 

Media Contacts

 

  mail:

          media at ffii org

 

  phone:

          Hartmut Pilch +49-89-18979927

 

          More Contacts to be supplied upon request

 

About the Eurolinux Alliance -- www.eurolinux.org

 

  The EuroLinux Alliance for a Free Information Infrastructure is an

  open coalition of commercial companies and non-profit associations

  united to promote and protect a vigourous European Software Culture

  based on copyright, open standards, open competition and open source

  software such as Linux. Corporate members or sponsors of EuroLinux

  develop or sell software under free, semi-free and non-free licenses

  for operating systems such as GNU/Linux, MacOS or MS Windows.

 

About the FFII -- www.ffii.org

 

  The Foundation for a Free Information Infrastructure (FFII) is a

  non-profit association registered in Munich, which is dedicated to 

the

  spread of data processing literacy. FFII supports the development of

  public information goods based on copyright, free competition, open

  standards. More than 250 members, 300 companies and 15,000 

supporters

  have entrusted the FFII to act as their voice in public policy

  questions in the area of exclusivity rights (intellectual property) 

in

  the field of software.

 

Permanent URL of this Press Release

 

  http://swpat.ffii.org/news/03/demo0827/index.en.html

 

Annotated Links

 

  -> [22]2003/08/25-9 BXL: Software Patent Directive Amendments

          Members of the European Parliament are coming back to work on

          monday August 25th. It is the last week before the vote on 

the

          Software Patent Directive Proposal. We are organising a

          conference and street rally wednesday the 27th. Some of our

          friends will moreover be staying in the parliament for 

several

          days. Time to work decide on submission of amendments to the

          software patent directive proposal is running out. FFII has

          proposed one set of amendments that stick as closely as

          possible to the original proposal while debugging and 

somewhat

          simplifying it. An alternative small set of amendments would

          "cut the crap" and rewrite the directive from scratch. We

          present and explain the possible approaches.

 

  -> [23]Online Demonstration Against Software Patents

          We can show our concern by physical presence as well as by 

more

          or less gently blocking access to webpages in a concerted

          manner at certain times.

 

  -> [24]Vote in 8 days: 2000 IT bosses urge European Parliament to 

say

          NO to software patents

          A "Petition for a Free Europe without Software Patents" has

          gained more than 150000 signatures. Among the supporters are

          more than 2000 company owners and chief executives and 25000

          developpers and engineers from all sectors of the European

          information and telecommunication industries, as well as more

          than 2000 scientists and 180 lawyers. Companies like Siemens,

          IBM, Alcatel and Nokia lead the list of those whose 

researchers

          and developpers want to protect programming freedom and

          copyright property against what they see as a "patent

          landgrab". Currently the patent policy of many of these

          companies is still dominated by their patent departments. 

These

          have intensively lobbied the European Parliament to support a

          proposal to allow patentability of "computer-implemented

          inventions" (recent patent newspeak term which usually refers

          to software in the context of patent claims, i.e. algorithms

          and business methods framed in terms of generic computing

          equipment), which the rapporteur, UK Labour MEP Arlene

          McCarthy, backed by "patent experts" from the socialist and

          conservative blocks, is trying to rush through the European

          Parliament on June 30, just 13 days after she had won the 

vote

          in the Legal Affairs Committe (JURI).

 

  -> [25]FFII: Software Patents in Europe

          For the last few years the European Patent Office (EPO) has,

          contrary to the letter and spirit of the existing law, 

granted

          more than 30000 patents on computer-implemented rules of

          organisation and calculation (programs for computers). Now

          Europe's patent movement is pressing to consolidate this

          practise by writing a new law. Europe's programmers and

          citizens are facing considerable risks. Here you find the 

basic

          documentation, starting from a short overview and the latest

          news.

 

References

 

  16. http://swpat.ffii.org/news/03/ekon0820/index.en.html

  17. http://swpat.ffii.org/news/03/plen0620/index.en.html

  18. http://swpat.ffii.org/news/03/plen0626/index.en.html

  19. http://wiki.ael.be/index.php/PressRelease200000

  20. 

http://dbs.cordis.lu/cgi-bin/srchidadb?CAL...801&TBL=EN_NEWS

  21. 

http://dbs.cordis.lu/cgi-bin/srchidadb?CAL...EN_RCN_ID:20436

  22. http://swpat.ffii.org/events/2003/europarl...8/index.en.html

  23. http://swpat.ffii.org/group/demo/index.en.html

  24. http://swpat.ffii.org/news/03/epet0622/index.en.html

  25. http://swpat.ffii.org/index.en.html

  26. http://swpat.ffii.org/papers/eubsa-swpat02...p/index.en.html

  27. 

http://swpat.ffii.org/papers/eubsa-swpat02...s/index.en.html

 

 

 

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[zero0w]

This is temporary victory, but the war has not won yet.

 

However, more and more sites are putting a page of protesting about this Software Patent matter. In my opinion, mandrakeusers.com / mandrakeusers.org should do the same before redirecting users to the forum. Spreading this message is VERY important because it would kill software competition faster than Microsoft FUD campaign.

[zero0w]

John C. Dvorak talked about the patent protest, and indeed GIMP has violated a software patent where Adobe holds if this software patent is enforceable:

 

Patent Riots of 2003

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,4149,1236389,00.asp

[Gowator]

Funny to see the Great Dvorak using the same disney analogy I did!

[roland]

Funny to see the Great Dvorak using the same disney analogy I did!

 

:lol:

didn't you put a patent on this analogy ?

 

roland

[Gowator]

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D

too laye, guess you already did it now!!!!

 

:wink:

[gmac]

There are some contradictory goings on just now. Recently in the UK Mattel and hasbro were fined for operating a price fixing cartel as have three retail chains. They were (mattel & Hasbro) also fined for curtailing supplies to retailers tat wouldnt seel at their retail price.

 

Several european car manufactures have also been fined for anti competitive practice and ordered to break up the dealer network in the uk and supply anybody thats wants their cars. As a result car prices have been plummeting in the UK (hooray).

 

Yet if you look at computer software price fixing is rampant. Also being unable to purchase a computer without windows should also be illegal

In a very real sense its part of a larger conflict about who determines how we live with large companies having more say than perhaps they should. Industry is competitive the companies currently devoting their energies to patents are forgetting they need to keep ahead by innovation, not by stifling competition but by matching it. The best tactic microsoft could adopt would be to drop their prices and compete fairly. The best defence is a good offence all these compsanies are doing is building a castle and pulling up the drawbridge in the hope the nasty rivals will go away. Ultimately they will fail by antagonising their client base and will go under bleating it was unfair competition. What price microsoft shares ten years from now?

 

On the other hand I think Mandrake et al need to start thinking about why people like windows and pinch the best of the marketing ideas.

 

If the above doesn't make a lot of sense its due in large part to special offers in the Asda/walmart wines and spirits section.

 

"In this day, the lingering effects of a mediocre German worker with serious family issues (Marx) are extracting a heavy toll on personal liberty, everywhere. "

 

Actually he was a son of the German middle classes. Engels was a racist but don't mention that to a socialist.

[zero0w]

Torvalds And Cox Write EU Parliament On Patents

 

http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/...21/2330232&tid=

 

Clear and concise points made in the letter.

[Gowator]

Its OK for us to read I guess.

I don't like the use of the word 'FREE' because although Linus and Alan have a very clear idea what that means most people confuse free beer and free speech.

 

(just my 2c on this)

 

Second, I do like the fact that as they point out, standards should never be patentable... thats a very good point!!!

 

And I guess thirdly, it might not be a bad idea to actually point out that patenting software concepts is a threat to the IP of the authors. Their ability to copyright code which they have written is comprimised by the possibility which is now becoming a probability that some idea or concept of their copywrighted work will turn out to be patented, either now or in the future ...

 

(This explains that being against patenting software is not against IP but for it!)

 

Any thoughts guys...

[Guest anon]

There is not much happening in the Dev group about this topic :( :(

I don't have time to do anything myself at the moment, im working on our backup site.

If any of you here in this thread want to put something together, we can make it "post of the week" for a few weeks. Sugest you all agree on something, and let me or any other Admin/mod/ Dev group member know.

[roland]

There is not much happening in the Dev group about this topic :(  :(  

I don't have time to do anything myself at the moment, im working on our backup site.

If any of you here in this thread want to put something together, we can make it "post of the week" for a few weeks. Sugest you all agree on something, and let me or any other Admin/mod/ Dev group member know.

 

Me I vote for the one I suggested elsewhere ;-)

Citation:

Statement to the Software-Patent-Directive

 

CEA-PME (engl. ECA-SME) is an ideologically neutral and non-party Confederation of 22 member associations from 19 European countries representing in total more than 500,000 enterprises. They represent the interests of SMEs in all sectors to the European institutions with the aim of giving them a level of influence commensurate with their importance within the European economy.

 

Mario Ohoven, President of the Confédération Européenne des Associations de Petites et Moyennes Entreprises (CEA-PME), rejects the proposed Directive on the Patent ability of Computer-Implemented Inventions, since this proposal strongly runs contrary to the interests of European Software-Enterprises. Should the European Parliament adapt this proposal without any changes, European economy would be threatened with the loss of thousands of jobs, a dramatic decline in innovation and even the stop of innovation for SME´s.

 

If the Directive is enforced as it is considered, SME´s who do not possess legal advisors will be confronted with enormous additional costs, since in the future they will have to carry out wide inquiries in matters of patents for every software-project. This does not only regard developers of software, but also computer retailer and IT-branches of enterprises of application. They will also be confronted with costs for licensing for the utilisation of external patents, additional costs for the development and costs for own patents in case enterprises should try to save themselves from the attacks of others.

 

Empiric studies (i.e. Frauenhofer-Institut) about the behaviour of SME`s in the Software field have shown, that patents are the less effective method to protect investments. In order to protect themselves from potential attacks software-patent-supporters suggest applying for as many patents as possible in order to establish a patent-portfolio. However, especially SME´s used to get along perfectly without patents. They are perfectly protected by the copyright law.

 

Unlike most complex technologies, the opportunity to develop software is open to small companies, and even to individuals. Software patens damage innovation by raising costs and uncertainties in assembling the many components needed for complex computer programs and constraining the speed and effectiveness of innovation. These risks and liabilities are particularly burdensome for SME´s, which play a central role in software innovation in Europe as well as North America. Moreover, within the ICT sector, expansion of patent protection has been found to lead to an increase in the strtegic use of patents, but to a demonstrable increase in innovation.

 

Copyright and other rules of competition permit SME's to grow despite the overwhelming resource advantages of large companies. The flexible and easy-growing software-industrie could become a clumsy industry, because of the need for access to cross-licensing agreements and the legal protection of large corporations. While some SME's will be able to prosper in this new environment, many will not. In particular, validating loosened standards on patent ability will cloud the prospects of Europe's ascendant free and open source software industry while preserving the dominance of present market leaders.

 

CEA-PME promotes the harmonisation of the European patent practice. However a way has to be found, that neither constrains SME's nor the free Software/Open-Source-Software. The best solution would be, to abstain from the enlargement of patent-systems on the field of logic and to clearly declare in the directive, that data processing is not technical and thus not patentable.

 

CEA-PME holds the view that the existing legal legislation - as regulated in the copyright law and the European Patent Agreement, Article 52 is sufficient and should only be confirmed within the EC-directive. The interpretation of the concerning regulation should be left to the jurisprudence.

[gmac]

On a related note I came across this article in guardian.co.uk

 

Now theres an aspect of this I hadn't thought about. Is Microsoft's licence actually enforceable in the U.K or the rest of Europe come to that?

 

 

"UK licensed to Bill

 

Saturday July 19, 2003

The Guardian

 

US violations of UK sovereignty are both more ubiquitous and far more widespread than David Leigh and Richard Norton-Taylor suggest in their excellent piece (We are now a client state, Comment, July 17).

Every copy of Microsoft Windows, every copy of MS Office World and every Dell computer invoice carry demands, imposed on Microsoft and Dell by the US government, that the UK user or UK purchaser observes US criminal law (The US Export Control Act) here in the UK. Users are prohibited from taking their copies of the above to various countries disapproved of by the US and in some cases from taking software out of the UK.

 

In relation to earlier violations of sovereignty using the same export law, Margaret Thatcher wrote to Paddy Ashdown on November 11 1988 saying: "You will no doubt recall that, in his letter of July 3 1985, Michael Havers (the attorney general) warned that, although US claims to extraterritorial jurisdiction are offensive, it is only realistic to recognise that we cannot in practice compel the US to stop making such claims and seeking to enforce them."

 

If Maggie had to tolerate violations of UK sovereignty, what chance has Tony Blair got? To reinforce this, the MoD had to get US permission to move its two US-manufactured supercomputers from Bracknell to Exeter. Soon the MoD will have to get US licences to have officials enter its Whitehall offices.

Kevin Cahill

Exeter, Devon "