Counterspy Posted April 2, 2003 Report Share Posted April 2, 2003 I have never seen anyone with experience recommend anything but a complete install. When someone expresses an opinion that something does not work as advertised it belongs in the topic that deals with that subject. Ideally, perhaps it should have been in the Installation topic but instead it is here. Much of the legitimate criticism of specific Mandrakesoft issues are blunted by those with an irrational religiosity for anything Mandrake. If I want that, I can join the Mandrake Club. Nowhere is there a statement that areas other than offtopic are off-limits to anything but questions. It seems that this is an arbitrary opinion made by one person with major influence over this board. Without the vigour created by debate of such issues where they most apply, this becomes entirely too sanitized a place. It should not be moved. It should be left exactly where it was posted. And next time, we will have all learned from this experience without further discussion. Counterspy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JaseP Posted April 3, 2003 Report Share Posted April 3, 2003 I think most experienced Mandrake users acknowledge that upgrades aren't the way to go. Additionally, it is very wise to keep your /home directory in a partition of its own... I would like to hear some success stories with version 9.1. I have a motherboard that is not fully supported under 8.2, and would like to know whether 9.1 will fit the bill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyme Posted April 3, 2003 Report Share Posted April 3, 2003 tomb: don't feel bad, things like this tend to errupt on this board from time to time. it's not your fault. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cannonfodder Posted April 3, 2003 Report Share Posted April 3, 2003 heh, you have crossed to the other side *weird music playing* :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ndeb Posted April 3, 2003 Report Share Posted April 3, 2003 Why not just move the post back to where it was originally (installation section) ? That would solve the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aRTee Posted April 3, 2003 Report Share Posted April 3, 2003 Ok, I don't want to get religious about mandrake (helpme helpme), but to their credit things have worked very well for many. Check out this board, and many other boards and find out how many problems people have. Then realise that those places are the only places where all problemhavers unite. So what I don't like about this topic is the title. Mandrake 9.1 installation doesn't do what it should when you choose upgrade. Work to do for the developers, and it should be made clear to people that the upgrade option is to be avoided or at least treated with distrust. As in: feel free to try, but first do a complete install before coming to us for help. Second thing: there was no request for any assistance. But sometimes this board is too nice,.... I visit some boards where that first post would have gotten locked without any questions asked, simply for not following the guidelines (that on this board are much less strict, which is why I put a link to this board on my website and not to those other boards). To the poster: mandrake 9.1 worked fine for me on both machines where I installed, so it is not bad in general. It didn't work properly on 3 machines you tried it on, so it is not good in all cases either. But howabout just posting: "I'm trying to install on this machine, hardware:..... Previously using:.... Symptoms:..... What should I do?" Tackle things one by one, and see how far you get. If you can't work out your problems, stay with mdk9.0 or try RH9, Suse8.2, Debian or whatever. Why would people even bother to try to help you if you're not motivating them to do so in a positive way (instead of: y'all use Mdk9.1 but it sucks bigtime, saying, hey for me it's not so great, how can I get to the nirvana of linux that you're enjoying??).. Even so, this forum / people here are really great! My 2 cts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ndeb Posted April 3, 2003 Report Share Posted April 3, 2003 Second thing: there was no request for any assistance.And how will you prove that ? Does one have to put the words ASSISTANCE NEEDED/DEMANDED/REQUIRED in the post ? If you are really so strict then dozens of posts in this forum will have to be treated same as well (if you can apply this criteria strictly and consistently). Why would people even bother to try to help you if you're not motivating them to do so in a positive way (instead of: y'all use Mdk9.1 but it sucks bigtime, saying, hey for me it's not so great, how can I get to the nirvana of linux that you're enjoying??)..They don't have to motivate in any way. Just reporting the problem itself implies that the person needs help. Imagine calling 911 and being refused help because "the person did not ask for help explicitly". This post should be moved to its original section. Thats easier than moving a hundred posts into this section (for consistency), assuming people are really interested in avoiding double standards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyme Posted April 3, 2003 Report Share Posted April 3, 2003 And how will you prove that ? Does one have to put the words ASSISTANCE NEEDED/DEMANDED/REQUIREDi think you already thoroughly covered this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cannonfodder Posted April 3, 2003 Report Share Posted April 3, 2003 It's fine right where it is. If he has problems to tackle, he can make a new post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aRTee Posted April 3, 2003 Report Share Posted April 3, 2003 Second thing: there was no request for any assistance.And how will you prove that ? Does one have to put the words ASSISTANCE NEEDED/DEMANDED/REQUIRED in the post ? If you are really so strict then dozens of posts in this forum will have to be treated same as well (if you can apply this criteria strictly and consistently). Well, maybe, but I just don't see the point of trying to help someone who closes with saying: I guess I still am but I'm not going to be ready to try any new releases anytime soon. It's very good though that you and others are. Read my final phrase again please. I was only commenting on the fact that I really understand a reaction such as that of SoulSe, even though I would never write that (because I wouldn't bother probably). Why would people even bother to try to help you if you're not motivating them to do so in a positive way (instead of: y'all use Mdk9.1 but it sucks bigtime, saying, hey for me it's not so great, how can I get to the nirvana of linux that you're enjoying??)..They don't have to motivate in any way. Just reporting the problem itself implies that the person needs help. Imagine calling 911 and being refused help because "the person did not ask for help explicitly". Nonsense. 911 (or 112 in my part of the world) is the number for help, but it is more often called by people who are just dialling the wrong number, by accident or without knowing that they were not supposed to use 911 but some other number. The starter post looked to me like someone had died. Sorry, don't bother 911, call the morgue. In forum speak: post to the right forum. If you just want to bitch that it doesn't work, but have resigned in trying to fix things and want to let off steam... Why motivate? Well, I don't know about you, but I certainly don't feel inclined to help if someone doesn't ask for it and does not sound open to any advice I might have. Now if the poster would have written something like: this bloody thing doesn't work, how can you all be so happy (or not, seen your posts, ndeb... :( ) about it, how the he|| do I get it to work too...... I didn't mean he should ask politely "or else", I meant: he could have put things in different wordings to make clear that insightful comments would be appreciated and that he would still try to get things fixed. Which, actually he did in later posts. My 2 rappen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cannonfodder Posted April 3, 2003 Report Share Posted April 3, 2003 I bet Tomb is probably sorry he mentioned it by now :wink: In my opinion he didn't really do anything wrong. We get the frustrated posters sometimes. It happens.. I would have initially told him to take a step back, take a deep breath, and ask questions on what he wants to resolve in seperate postings. By the time I got to this, it had turned into a discussion on the nature of his post. Because he's not even posting in this thread, I moved it here. If he had come back with specific questions in this thread after his initial post I would have left this post there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero0w Posted April 3, 2003 Report Share Posted April 3, 2003 1) Anyway UPGRADE seems to be a bad option for 9.1. The leaps from KDE 3 to 3.1, glibc 2.25 to glibc 2.3.1 both introducing some big changes. But again I think it's perhaps Mandrake's way of managing things. Other users have been reported to be successful upgrading to KDE 3.1 from Mdk 9.0 using Texstar rpm and such. So maybe the UPGRADE path is not thoroughly tested from the Mandrake team? 2) The installer in 9.1 final has problems, if you tweak too much away from the default option you will have funny things come up. I did have repeated freezes at the same location after finising change of selection of system services. So, basically something's wrong with the installer. I did not however, try a text-mode install to verify if it happens there too but why or how would I know to do that in advance? 3) Screen font Anti-aliasing slows performance and may not work with some older display card (that's what I heard). So that might explain something. Of course, to verify this, you may want to try Red Hat 9 and see if the problem is due to anti-aliasing but not due to vendor's packaging flaws. 4) Fresh re-install is recommended anyway. I have mysterious (eg. seg-fault) problem in MDK 8.2 which was solved in 9.0. Also, you may want to try using XFS instead of ext3 as filesystem. My harddrive seemed to have data corruption with ext3 in my first installation of Mdk 9.1, not sure it's a general phenomenon or it's simply my system config's 'uniqueness'. 5) btw, it's usual to install more than once to get a new distro release to work the way as you like. You may want to give it more trials. Also others reported problems with ALSA sound driver not installed properly - that's true: Mdk 9.1 will not install ALSA as default, you need to change it manually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ndeb Posted April 3, 2003 Report Share Posted April 3, 2003 Well, maybe, but I just don't see the point of trying to help someone who closes with saying: I guess I still am but I'm not going to be ready to try any new releases anytime soon. Thats your attitude problem. This forum does not require that people stick with mandrake distros (in fact even posts about non-mandrake linux are allowed). In any case, expression of such an opinion does not justify moving the post, which is the real issue. Nonsense. 911 (or 112 in my part of the world) is the number for help, but it is more often called by people who are just dialling the wrong number, by accident or without knowing that they were not supposed to use 911 but some other number. The starter post looked to me like someone had died. Sorry, don't bother 911, call the morgue. Firstly, 911 was a rough analogy so there's no point beating on it. Its always possible to harp on the dissimilarities of the analogy than its similarities. Secondly, its your interpretation of Tomb's post that is nonsensiical. All the title means is that LM9.1 has been a disaster for the user so far, which seems very true from the description of the user's problems. And as for calling the morgue, people do call 911 when they see a dead body. After all, its not for you to decide the "dead" status. A death certificate has to be issued by a doctor. If the circumstances are unusual, the police have to be informed as well. Hence calling 911 becomes a legal necessity. Besides, the morgue may not accept a dead body without a death certificate issued by the relevant autorities. In forum speak: post to the right forum. If you just want to bitch that it doesn't work, but have resigned in trying to fix things and want to let off steam...That depends on your definition of bitching. I see only a couple of lines of "bitching" and 15 lines of detailed problem description. If it had instead been 15 lines of bitching and 3 lines of problem description, I could agree with you. Why motivate? Well, I don't know about you, but I certainly don't feel inclined to help if someone doesn't ask for it and does not sound open to any advice I might have.Once again, thats not reason enough for moving the post. Now if the poster would have written something like: this bloody thing doesn't work, how can you all be so happy (or not, seen your posts, ndeb... ) about it, how the he|| do I get it to work too......Not sure what u mean. My problem posts always come with problem description. And I am not bothered if you have not faced the same problems. For example, if I do not have a printer, I cannot reproduce a problem that affects printer installation. That does not mean the bug is not there. I didn't mean he should ask politely "or else", I meant: he could have put things in different wordings to make clear that insightful comments would be appreciated and that he would still try to get things fixed. Which, actually he did in later posts.He could have and he didn't because its his choice. But the post was enough on-topic to stay where it originally was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyme Posted April 3, 2003 Report Share Posted April 3, 2003 i think it's about time to just let this one go... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ndeb Posted April 3, 2003 Report Share Posted April 3, 2003 1) Anyway UPGRADE seems to be a bad option for 9.1. The leaps from KDE 3 to 3.1, glibc 2.25 to glibc 2.3.1 both introducing some big changes. But again I think it's perhaps Mandrake's way of managing things. Other users have been reported to be successful upgrading to KDE 3.1 from Mdk 9.0 using Texstar rpm and such. So maybe the UPGRADE path is not thoroughly tested from the Mandrake team?Upgrade of all packages and proper config changes should take care of most problems. But thats very tricky. About, KDE-3.1 on LM9.0, texstar compiled them on LM9.0 so they work ok on LM9.0. If you try to install LM9.1 KDE rpms on LM9.0 (or vice-versa), it won't work. The basic problem of upgrade is 2-fold: 1. Is the final list of packages mutually binary-compatible ? Only way to ensure that is upgrade all existing packages, which is pretty simple (rpm -Fvh ....). But problems might still appear: - a package in LM9.7 has no upgrade in LM9.8 (since the package is not part of the new distro anymore) - change in package dependency. A package X depends on Y in LM9.7. But LM9.8 replaces Y with Z so that X now depends on Z. This means the old binary of Y must be removed and then Z installed. Having both Y and Z may create lots of probelms. 2. Will the new software work with the old configuration files. If not, the config files should be modified. This is very hard to do due to: - the numerous possibilities that can exist due to customization of config files - default locations of config files may have changed - new config files may have been added Best way out is to install: - make sure / is formatted so that all old files are removed - keep /home intact Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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