SoulSe Posted April 2, 2003 Author Report Share Posted April 2, 2003 I have tried Wine, but am againt it (Wine) in principle. I will continue until I get it up and running in Wine. This, however, is a temporary solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aRTee Posted April 2, 2003 Report Share Posted April 2, 2003 Agree with you SoulSe, wine is not a solution. And if you really must use this windows program, then use it in its native environment. zero0w, check googles zeitgeist: http://www.google.com/press/zeitgeist.html, and you will see that linux marketshare really is way behind. Note that google doesn't just check for the browser id but for the OS id which is generally not faked (but surely can be), so much more reliable. What is very important is the number of old windows versions still in use. Those should/could be changed into linux, at least part of those. But none of this helps linux get good audio editing software... BTW I like the GIMP, only used PS very few times, and I'm nowhere near a professional, but the point is, people who want to do photo editing on linux will use the GIMP, and not consider buying PS anymore once it's out. Exceptions will prove this... ;) Agree with your multi platform strategy btw... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michel Posted April 2, 2003 Report Share Posted April 2, 2003 I use the gimp also, although I'm surely a beginner and it hasn't such a userfriendly interface...But they try and it's getting better I suppose...That's good.. For wine...All those proffesionnels in the music industry won't be convinced if they don't can switch. People still want to use the software they're used to work with...surely professionels I think...except if there is aprogram that gives the same/more features in a userdriendly way. If you have all those programs bought for windows, why again for linux?(pay twice for the same program?) Once they're switched over that is another issue....My opinion: buy programs for the OS you mostley work on....that seems logical, not? So, first show the people that linux is good and that they can do their job on it...., then the manufacturers will follow to my opinion...Luckily there is a LOT of good opensource software for linux...thanks to all those developppers... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero0w Posted April 2, 2003 Report Share Posted April 2, 2003 zero0w, check googles zeitgeist: http://www.google.com/press/zeitgeist.html, and you will see that linux marketshare really is way behind. Note that google doesn't just check for the browser id but for the OS id which is generally not faked (but surely can be), so much more reliable. Ok, I guess google speaks for most people accessing the internet. Perhaps you are right, Linux desktop still has some time to catch up. I just read somewhere it will surpass Mac soon but your google statistics show it may be a bit too optimistic. Perhaps Mac OS X is really a good product... I noticed that statistics is for Feb 2003, I am curious if it will stay the same by the end of 2003 though, kernel 2.6, mozilla 1.5+, Open Office 1.1 and possible improvement in other multimedia capability such as Xine 1.0 and Mplayer 0.9 final will push Linux desktop even more to the front stage, I believe (btw I am working on an article of these interesting developments). There are two other posibilities those statistics don't show though: (1) people who don't use google - eg. a lot of people in China probably will use something other than that for their relatively localized web-surfing in only Chinese sites. They may have other useful portals for searching Chinese materials. (2) people who don't have internet access - well that's probably very few nowadays. However Chinese piracy rate is very high so I don't think the missing representation in non-google-access would increase the market share of desktop Linux much. However, it should be clear that the market share based on sale is not appropriate to Linux. Since you can install as many copy to the computers as you want to. Here's another article I read at LinuxWorld which help debunking some market share myth on this issue: Debunking the Linux-Windows market-share myth http://www.linuxworld.com/2003/0314.petreley.html Anyway, I hope 2003 will be the year where we will see a turnaround of things on desktop Linux. BTW I like the GIMP, only used PS very few times, and I'm nowhere near a professional, but the point is, people who want to do photo editing on linux will use the GIMP, and not consider buying PS anymore once it's out. Exceptions will prove this... ;) Color accuracy is extremely important in printing and publishing. If your printout does not match what you've seen on the monitor, it will be big trouble to print publishers. So far GIMP is not designed to have high color precision or calibration accuracy. GIMP-Print Project might change that, but I am not too familiar with it. Besides, color adjustment and calibration is simply plain hard work between the printer manufacturers and the software (color library, in particular) developers. It is test and test and until the color on monitor matches the color values stored in the printing hardware, driver, and the graphic software. It's extremely boring work I am afraid. It's probably not fit for open source developers where they are developing for challenge and interest. But perhaps I'll check out the GIMP Print project to find out more. Either way, printer driver support will need to be improved if Linux is to be considered important in print industry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emh Posted April 2, 2003 Report Share Posted April 2, 2003 Ecasound = semi-crap What was wrong with it? Sure, it's not perfect, but I find it to be a great program for multitrack recording and editing. If you've been using Cool Edit Pro for a long time, I can understand that switching to anything different takes a while to get used to. I, personally, have never used Cool Edit Pro when I used Windows. I actually used Magix Music Studio when I used Windows. But only for a few months, and I didn't even record that many songs. A few months after I got Magix, I ended up switching to Linux, and began exploring audio apps. Audacity, so far, seems to be the most sophisticated audio editor I've used, and I've also used Acoustica from Acon, and Magix's Wav editor. I find Ecasound to be the most advanced. There isn't much of a learning curve for me, because I haven't used any other program extensively. I have tried them all folks. Until this problem gets sorted we are screwed as sound proffessionals using linux. Well, I'm happily making and recording music using my Linux installation, so I don't see how that statment could possibly apply to every single sound professional out there. I can understand if you've been using Cool Edit Pro or something else for several years, but people that are just getting into sound recording can find lots of perfectly adequate (or more so) software on Linux. Speaking from experience, sound professionals are not screwed because they use something other than Windows. I think it's mostly due to what they're used to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulSe Posted April 2, 2003 Author Report Share Posted April 2, 2003 Prgrams I have extensive experience with (note: I have tried a ton, these are the ones I got good at: Goldwave, Multiquence, Acid, Qbase, Fruity Loops, Rebirth, Cooledit 2000, Cooledit Pro, Audacity. We might not be completely screwed, but we have nothing that comes close to Cooledit Pro or Qbase, Pro Tools. I usually run on a tight production schedule and don´t have time to muck around with something in Audacity or Ecasound that can be done in a third of the time under CEP. I also found that not half the files compatible with CEP are compatible with Ecasound and CEP. I wasn´t taking the piss when I said I tried them all, I was being serious and if you had ever tried CEP, you would understand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aRTee Posted April 2, 2003 Report Share Posted April 2, 2003 SoulSe, sorry for going offtopic in your topic, but it does have to do with linux on the desktop whether good audio editors for linux will become a reality sometime soon. Good to hear someone is happy with some of what is available. zero0w, Agree on China, many people, potentially many linuxusers, but so much pirating, that they will hardly count as a hard argument... The point being, whatever they use, they are not likely to generate a real income for the software houses anytime soon.... Non-internet connected linux users are going to be a bit more rare, wouldn't know how to get info and help myself out with the net,... but I can imagine there are people who surf at work (win) to find info on how to do stuff at home (lin). But not enough to change the scale of things. I also agree on the number of linux users that will very likely look entirely different by the end of the year, or sometime next year. MacOS is maybe a real good product, but the ace in the hole is the fanaticism among mac users (well, most that I ever met) that even now continue to maintain that mac has the faster hardware and software..... These people are almost more fanatic about their macs than I about linux/open source (though I don't talk about it at parties... yet.... :) ) Read the article about debunking the myth; not bad, but it fails to notice that there is really a very small market, and the money is still on the MSwin side... What I do know, is that linux is taking over stuff, both from windows and unix, in companies worldwide. I am an electronics designer, and I know that all design software from Cadence for instance is being ported as we speak, and should be available (all their software) on linux before this summer....! Mozilla and OOo are the true killer apps, they make it possible to switch one app at a time, and another later, and then change the platform. So things can be tackled one at a time. Personally, I try to get anyone I know who knows a bit about computers, to switch. Well, dualboot, because you don't want to burn all bridges behind you. Which is also my motivation to create my website. Make it easy for people to switch, help them out. Anyone who can install any OS, and maintain it somewhat, can do so for linux. Next time I have some time, I'm creating a website on why not to use MSwin. The message is often not really coming across, so wording is very important. Basically, developing for MS is supporting their monopoly. Using MS software is supporting their monopoly (because you count in the statistics). Supporting the MS Monopoly is shooting yourself in the foot in the long term. As a software vendor, you cannot compete with MS, they will extinguish you. As a user, they will milk you. So I try to get a feel with colleagues and I got most of them who have some interest in computers to switch to linux. But then, most are unix users at work, they like the cli and find it cool that they can be root at home (which we would like at work but have no business being as designers/users and not being CAD support...).. The big change will come when you can buy linux preinstalled all around. I'm looking into that too, but actually need more time... Personally, 2002 was the linux on the desktop year, anyone putting it any later than that is just behind.... ;) Next milestone is the Windows-off-the-desktop-year. 2007 anyone? ;) (I know, won't happen and as far as I'm concerned, doesn't need to, as long as they have less than 50% marketshare by then..) Time for bed.... BTW can't get to the site in your sig, what's up with that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qnr Posted April 2, 2003 Report Share Posted April 2, 2003 Me, I'm not a professional in any way, manner, or form. I still do my audo editing with Cubase on my Atari, or using an Atari emulator in Linux. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emh Posted April 3, 2003 Report Share Posted April 3, 2003 Prgrams I have extensive experience with (note: I have tried a ton, these are the ones I got good at: Goldwave, Multiquence, Acid, Qbase, Fruity Loops, Rebirth, Cooledit 2000, Cooledit Pro, Audacity. We might not be completely screwed, but we have nothing that comes close to Cooledit Pro or Qbase, Pro Tools. I usually run on a tight production schedule and don´t have time to muck around with something in Audacity or Ecasound that can be done in a third of the time under CEP. I also found that not half the files compatible with CEP are compatible with Ecasound and CEP. I wasn´t taking the piss when I said I tried them all, I was being serious and if you had ever tried CEP, you would understand. That's the thing, though. You've used Cool Edit Pro for a long time, and Ecasound is still relatively recent. (I should probably ask when was the last time you tried it?) What might take you a third of the time to do in Cool Edit vs. Ecasound might take three times longer for me to do in Cool Edit than it would using Audacity and/or Ecasound, because I'm used to Audacity/Ecasound and not Cool Edit. We tend to stick with what we've used for a long time, because we're used to it. Linux programs might not have all the options available in Cool Edit Pro, but, to be honest, how many of those options actually get used on a regular basis? Are all the options really needed? About file types not compatible, what the heck file type does CEP use that can't be imported into another program? I was sort of under the impression that these types of programs write wav files for each individual track (Magix, if you took multiple takes at a certain spot, would add the new take to the end of the wav file, rather than replacing. I'm sure CEP does the same thing. Personally, I hate that). I'm just concerned that we're potentially turning potential new Linux users away from Linux if we make these kinds of claims. Stating that professional audio/music production on Linux is impossible is just plain false. You don't need Cool Edit Pro to make professional recordings. That's all I'm getting at. You seem to be quite happy with Cool Edit Pro, and I don't blame you. I believe you when you say you've tried a lot of them, and found that CEP does what you need the best. Just keep in mind that it's merely what you prefer. Somebody else might prefer something different. I just don't think we should be saying a particular operating system isn't suited for a particular task merely because we don't like the software for it. Sorry for my long rant, and I mean no disrespect. P.S. Have you tried running CEP in WineX? I actually tried running CEP 2.0 demo via Crossover Office. Installed great, just wouldn't run. :P Maybe I'll try it via WineX whenever I have some spare time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulSe Posted April 3, 2003 Author Report Share Posted April 3, 2003 Dude, I never said it WAS impossible, I said it was DIFFICULT. Not only do I work quicker in CEP, but it has tools and functions that Audacity (for one) does not have! I am not going to say anything about Ecasound, because the last time I used it was four months ago and it might have changed. Look, I'm not going to lie to people to get them to use Linux - if n00bs get turned away because of what I say then at least they made an informed decision. I have tried to get CEP running with winex/wine - once again: THAT IS NOT A SOLUTION. I will go and try Ecasound again and come back again and tell you why it doesn't cut it again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero0w Posted April 3, 2003 Report Share Posted April 3, 2003 Read the article about debunking the myth; not bad, but it fails to notice that there is really a very small market, and the money is still on the MSwin side... Well, guess it is "install base" rather than "market share" then. Since Linux is basically free, the money will mostly go to support service and contract development projects rather than the OS product itself. It probably will never reach that level of money MS is able to charge their users. I do not have high hope it will unseat M$ in the short term (1-3 years). If the install base can reach 20% by then I think it is already achieving something. In the long term, well things can change anyway. What I do know, is that linux is taking over stuff, both from windows and unix, in companies worldwide. I am an electronics designer, and I know that all design software from Cadence for instance is being ported as we speak, and should be available (all their software) on linux before this summer....! Great, thac's mdk rpm page hosted some electronic software package, haven't looked into that in detail myself :o . Basically, developing for MS is supporting their monopoly. Using MS software is supporting their monopoly (because you count in the statistics). I would not go that far. But MS incorporating DMCA in Palladium architecture is taking things too far. And Volume Licensing 6 in the middle of economic downturn wouldn't get any cheers but the recognition to the reality of lock-in to pay more. MS Windows 2000 is okay but other OS product lines each have their flaws and problems in terms of instability or intrusive features (XP spying users data). Supporting the MS Monopoly is shooting yourself in the foot in the long term. As a software vendor, you cannot compete with MS, they will extinguish you. As a user, they will milk you. I think MS monopolistic strategy is bad to users, and at sometimes bullying OEM is unfair to competitors. But developing on MS platform, for now, is a better way to have people purchasing your products because people CAN use it. Once again, the only realistic strategy is multi-platform if the developers want to have more revenue from the widest user base possible. Personally, 2002 was the linux on the desktop year, anyone putting it any later than that is just behind.... ;) I would say kernel 2.6 will fill in the puzzle of multimedia capabilities in terms of pre-emptive kernel patch and a much more efficient scheduler. It reduces latency in video/audio editing and network audio stream. To multimedia authoring kernel 2.4 is still a bit lack in that prospect. Well if you're a Linux kernel hacker guru and patch the kernel yourself you certainly can claim 2002 has all the source you have. But a lot more user space apps is coming in 2003 and later. And I believe mplayer 0.9 final is very important in viewing QuickTime video, which is to be released soon. Next milestone is the Windows-off-the-desktop-year. 2007 anyone? ;)(I know, won't happen and as far as I'm concerned, doesn't need to, as long as they have less than 50% marketshare by then..) Hmm... I can't see that far, but maybe we will have kernel 3.x by then :) . BTW can't get to the site in your sig, what's up with wthat? RatedPC.com may be down, try again later. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emh Posted April 4, 2003 Report Share Posted April 4, 2003 Dude, I never said it WAS impossible, I said it was DIFFICULT. Your exact quote: I have tried them all folks. Until this problem gets sorted we are screwed as sound proffessionals using linux. What "problem" are you referring to? The only thing you said was that Ecasound was semi-crap, which isn't a reason. Not only do I work quicker in CEP, but it has tools and functions that Audacity (for one) does not have! I am not going to say anything about Ecasound, because the last time I used it was four months ago and it might have changed. What does it have that Audacity doesn't? And do you use all of them on a regular basis? Look, I'm not going to lie to people to get them to use Linux - if n00bs get turned away because of what I say then at least they made an informed decision. I'll print your quote again: Ecasound = semi-crapglaim = crap I have tried them all folks. Until this problem gets sorted we are screwed as sound proffessionals using linux. That, to me, is not an informed opinion. It says absolutely nothing other than you didn't like a couple programs. Nobody can make an informed decision based solely on that quote above. I'm not saying you should lie, but you need to give better arguments than that. I have tried to get CEP running with winex/wine - once again: THAT IS NOT A SOLUTION. Never said it was. Just made a f**king suggestion for possibly getting it running, for crying out loud!! In fact, I was trying to be light-hearted about it, and here you come out and chop me to pieces about it. I will go and try Ecasound again and come back again and tell you why it doesn't cut it again. If you're going to go in with that attitude, then you'll probably be right in your mind. And, for the record, you didn't say why it didn't cut it in the first place. Look, I use these programs on a regular basis, and I can tell you first hand that they do what I ask them and more. Are you saying that I don't know what I'm talking about? I'm going to stop discussing this now, because you seem to be getting offended by the fact that I'm not just merely taking your word as the gospel of Christ. You really need to lighten up, I wasn't trying to start a flame war. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aRTee Posted April 4, 2003 Report Share Posted April 4, 2003 SoulSe, if ecasound, glame or whatever don't work, could you at least try to find out what's wrong with those and try to convince developers about what is missing and should be added/changed? As the email said, your favourite program is not going to be ported anytime soon. zero0w, you're right, I was not really thinking: without development for MSwin most commercial software makers wouldn't have bread to eat. I was more thinking of home devvers who make some freeware stuff or so... Where is "thac's mdk rpm page" ? BTW I doubt it would have something as serious as the software I was talking about -- Cadence and Mentor are the two packages (well, software houses) that most electronics/chipdesigners use to make silicon; I'd think that 80 or 90% of all chips (not necessarily of all chipdesigns though) are made with software of either one or the other. Not something you find packaged for mdk.. ;) (BTW I recently heard what a designer seat costs where I work: 35000USD. And that's mainly software licenses...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero0w Posted April 4, 2003 Report Share Posted April 4, 2003 Where is "thac's mdk rpm page" ? Check out some of the electronic software packages (gEDA, Pcb, XCircuit, Eagle Layout Editor) on this page by thac. I do not know much about them, may not fit professional use but it should be interesting: http://rpm.nyvalls.se/utils9.0.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero0w Posted April 5, 2003 Report Share Posted April 5, 2003 aRTee: Well at least on the development side of it Linux will be heading to over 50% soon. :D http://www.linuxjournal.com/article.php?sid=6755 However, I still maintain developers need a good cross-platform strategy in the beginning. wxWindows is a good start. Check out these Open Office Impress presentations of wxWindows and see how good it can be used to develop for cross-platform apps: http://www.wxwindows.org/docs.htm#presentations Of course developers have reservation of the on-going maintainence of an open source GUI widget without a company support. They may prefer Qt. Either way wxWindows and Qt (also GTK) will provide common GUI frameworks for cross-platform apps development. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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