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Interest in a magazine for Linux newbies - by us


Darkelve
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If the interface changes then you have to change the text tutorials too.

To some extent but that depends how graphically based they are ... its planning how the text goes with screenshots in some ways... but don't get me wrong Im not against video clips... just against planning a structure around them ... exclusively ... or having a whole "video magazine"

Besides if the GUI changes I don't have to make the whole tutorial again.
I'd say that depends how basic n00b your aiming at... ? If mandriva changes what's in konqueror (or switches to gnome) but small things like changing icon set etc. are more confusing when its video because ... well because the user isn't really reading but looking at pictures...

 

It's only true for the videos on ubuntuclips. The flash tutorials on virtualsky are made with a program called wink which makes a flash output by default but it can make pdf and a couple of others too. Making a tutorial with wink is basically making screencaptures and then adding some explanations. If the interface changes somewhere and I still have the project file then I just have to change a few pictures and a couple of words
(t's a jpeg etc.) but if you use the quick start guide you will probably be taking worse pictures than a decent digital compact... because digital SLR's are complex things...

 

The same goes for linux...

Some stuff is relevant to Windows experts who change to linux and other stuff for people who never used a computer before.... (yes they exist) there are also n00bies to linux with 30 yrs programming and system admin on UNIX... I can't see them being comforatable with a GUI, expecially for admin tasks ...

 

All the other stuff like different file managers or DEs should be covered by other tutorials.

but you started off saying

I always liked the idea of these magazines and I used to download a lot. But after a time I always noticed that I barely read them. As I barely read any book or magazine or longer text on the monitor of my computer.

Then I saw some video tutorials somewhere and

I know that flash and video tutorials are the future in learning.
People barely read in these days. They don't have time. I encourage everyone to do flash or video tutors instead of magazines. there's a reason ubuntuclips exist. Take a look at http://www.virtualsky.net/5minutes for some Mandriva turials. You can see they are much more efficient than a magazine article.

OK so the stuff I underlined...

The future of learning? I think not... the future of shortcuts perhaps... you can buy a video for learning a language and even passing a literature exam on shakespear without ever opening the book... many people have read cliff notes for a long time but they don't understand anything ... sure if you hate shakespear and have to pass a module but its really not the same as reading the play!

I'm still wating for the "bomb defusing for dummies" video :D hmm watch the video then you can go out and defuse bombs and landmines .... or learn to fly a helicopter or .... but you can't ... you need simulation and real books...

 

>>People barely read in these days.

I am against encouraging this trend, Call me old fashioned.

Better make a more readable, encouraging reading, with link to videos

I don't wanna take away your enthusiasm but do you know what's "encouraging reading" these days IMHO? Harry Potter. No, seriuosly. You can't compete with it. Or if you can you won't have any financial problems in your life anymore.

Harry Potter is well written series, its an excellent series to learn English or French from... (don't know about other translations) but helping people learn who refuse to read? I have no interest in this... if people refuse to read then they deserve to remain ignorant...

I spent 4-5 hours in Sydney ;listening to other peoples conversations waiting for fireworks (you needed to claim a space) and a group next to us had a guy complaining about some guy at his work who got promoted ahead of him when he had been working loinger in the company... I was a bit bored so listened in... it transpired the guy had worked longer because he started at 16 whereas the other lay-about wasted time going to Uni... and learning ...

Now seriously .. what did he expect? sure a salary looked attractive at 16 ... sure the other guy probably spent a lot of time not studying but in the end the guy with the education got promoted ?? which brings me to. ...

 

There were and still are some hardcore users who think all computer owners should learn CLI and understand what the computer really does. Do users do that? You can't change the users. You have to conform to them and not the other way around.

Yeah sure change linux to work as the idiots who refuse to read want it to work?

but seriously ... that's what Apples are for... Mac's are appliances... if you want linux to work without a CLI then it will be an appliance and inflexible... Xandros/Linspire come to mind .. (I'm not considering SLED anymore)

 

Since video facinate people more people would watch it than read an article.
Or watch the latest Harry Potter movie?

But look at it this way.... why are all techbooks for the blind in braille? Because we learn differently by reading than audio books (or video.).. see http://www.duxburysystems.com/hksb96.asp

 

We could write the CLI commands under the video, but remember tis magazine is intended for noobs the less CLI you are using the better.

Well I don't agree.... and this is the crux of why....

Because you presume n00bies don't want to learn the CLI or how linux works....

This is patently not the fact... indeed we were all n00bies once... and yet many of us chose to learn the CLI...

 

again as emmanuel_uk says

You have self starters, self learners, and people who need more directions/instruction in their learning,

you have newbie w/w computing experience

One needs to decide at what level to pitch the mag. Tux had made a choice.

Fine by me if whoever leads say "pitched at same level as Tux, avoiding any CLI" or whatever. Personally I would keep a bit of CLI

So Im strongly against pretending you don't need the CLI... because sooner or later you will.

Even XP needs the CLI... and the CLI gives a better understanding and flexibility...

 

Will some users not want to or be intimidated? Sure just like the guy who chose not to go to university but they should be looking at a "linux for dummies" distro's not mandriva or linux in general and really are better off sticking with a Mac just like the guy in the park should decide to go back to school or keep with a job which doesn't need an education ...

 

(ps I might have been more sympathetic with this guy had he not gone on and on about how he wanted to get into work to buy a car .. (well a pickup) or had financial reasons stopping him... but he seemed to think buying a car was more important... )

 

So my take is many n00bs want to learn linux... including the CLI so unless the magazine is "linux for people who don't want to learn" the CLI should have some place.

 

[edited by tyme to fix quotes...or at least i tried... :)]

 

thx tyme...

Anyway... Dexter you have posted the nice KDE4 magazine proving some of us (you included) still DO READ :D

Edited by Gowator
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I certainly would be interested in a magazine. I don't know how much I could contribute though - I'm not too much of a geek. More of a GUI over CLI sort of person :D.

 

I have every issue of Tux, and I have read them all. I've learnt a lot over the past couple of years from it, and will miss it a lot.

 

To be successful I would see the magazine as having to cater to all sections of the community, not just the die-hard geeks. I buy Linux Magazine each month at the news stand & it has a good mix of articles for those with an in-depth knowledge, and those who are still on a steep learning curve (such as how to create a presentation using OpenOffice, or use a graphics program like the Gimp).

 

All I can say is go for it. I would certainly be happy to post about it on my blog & the other forums I am a member of.

Edited by seaeagle
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I certainly would be interested in a magazine. I don't know how much I could contribute though - I'm not too much of a geek. More of a GUI over CLI sort of person :D.

That shouldn't be a problem... :D how much you can contribute depends how you view it :D ... you can read and write so you can give opinion... a non geek opinion is as valuable as a geek one... especially to other non geeks :D

 

The point is there is nothing wrong with the GUI.... and it should be a personal choice how much GUI or CLI not decided that all n00b's don't want CLI because some do :D

So long as your not the guy behind luna park on new years :D

I have every issue of Tux, and I have read them all. I've learnt a lot over the past couple of years from it, and will miss it a lot.
You can learn just as much by writuing and giving your experience too :D its just a different type of learning

 

To be successful I would see the magazine as having to cater to all sections of the community, not just the die-hard geeks.
I agree completely.... although a geek mag can survive without non geeks and n00bs a non geek mag can't survive without geeks to dot he tech stuff :D but the best mag is a mix of both where you grow according to content ...experience etc.

 

This way when you look back at an article a year ago you think "whoah I was a real n00b then" ... but equally you can find things in that magazine which are at your present level... optherwise the n00bs graduate and get bored and leave before ever putting back...

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intended for noobs the less CLI you are using the better

I know it is nearly a mantra on this board.

And I agree (total noob and CLI = too much frustration = barrier = wrong start)

 

How about one or two clips per issue, a longish one (< 5min?)

And also 1 or 2 super short (<1 or 2 min?)

For ad-hoc purposes, geared at "total noob"

I wanna make a new one about adding ftp mirrors. I explained that too many times myself.
Not used wink, is this faster than just making a ppt (impress)

presentation, made of captured jpeg, as opposed to some kind of movie/film? I know not the same impact.

Never made a presentation before so no idea, but it's very easy.
Hey, am looking forward to the first clip explaining CLI :thumbs::lol2:

 

Still, even with such a suggestion, one needs a content / angle / style for the rest of the mag

 

Wink = flash ? flash and linux are not very good friends, are they? (for now)

Just wondered is mpeg 2 , divx, etc not ok? Anyhow I have no idea if flash has

real advantage. Off topic sorry.

From what you are saying wink is good because you can keep the txt, and redo the capture.

flash is only one of the outputs wink is able to make

Output formats: Macromedia Flash, Standalone EXE, PDF, PostScript, HTML or any of the above image formats. Use Flash/html for the web, EXE for distributing to PC users and PDF for printable manuals.
Wink tutors can viewed with Flash7 so I don't see any problem with that. Mpeg, divx atc has the disadvantage you and Gowator mentioned they have to be redone from scratch after every little change.

You and any other interested should take a look at wink http://www.debugmode.com/wink/

Edited by dexter11
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To some extent but that depends how graphically based they are

The more graphical the easier they could be understood. "A picture worths a thousand words." The more words the more effort you have to put in your articles.

 

I'd say that depends how basic n00b your aiming at... ? If mandriva changes what's in konqueror (or switches to gnome) but small things like changing icon set etc. are more confusing when its video because ... well because the user isn't really reading but looking at pictures...

I know who my tutorial is aimed at. And I know that I don't wanna make complex tutorials except one: an installation tutorial.

Those people who find different iconsets confusing often find too many letters together confusing.

 

(t's a jpeg etc.) but if you use the quick start guide you will probably be taking worse pictures than a decent digital compact... because digital SLR's are complex things...
I don't understand this sentence.

 

The same goes for linux...

Some stuff is relevant to Windows experts who change to linux and other stuff for people who never used a computer before.... (yes they exist) there are also n00bies to linux with 30 yrs programming and system admin on UNIX... I can't see them being comforatable with a GUI, expecially for admin tasks ...

As I wrote I know who my tutorials are amimed at. They are for people who used Windows before but probably never even heard of Linux. So I won't explain howto switch the computer on or howto double click. My tutors for people who just wanna use their computer for the usual stuff web browsing, reading mail etc and they don't wanna take a computer science exam to do that.

 

All the other stuff like different file managers or DEs should be covered by other tutorials.

Didn't explain this yet. I wanna make short tutorials which solve one problem only. Howto add mirrors howto install software etc. No complex things.

 

I deleted this next section. Shakespeare is a bad example you can't enjoy what he wrote without actually reading it. Computer usage is not about enjoying anything for a lot of people. Computers are tools. And you can use them without deep knowledge just like you can drive your car without actually knowing how the engine works.

 

 

Harry Potter is well written series, its an excellent series to learn English or French from... (don't know about other translations) but helping people learn who refuse to read? I have no interest in this... if people refuse to read then they deserve to remain ignorant...
Refuse? I said don't have time. People tend to have their private lives besides their work and not everyone's private life includes computers.

 

There were and still are some hardcore users who think all computer owners should learn CLI and understand what the computer really does. Do users do that? You can't change the users. You have to conform to them and not the other way around.

Yeah sure change linux to work as the idiots who refuse to read want it to work?

but seriously ... that's what Apples are for... Mac's are appliances... if you want linux to work without a CLI then it will be an appliance and inflexible... Xandros/Linspire come to mind .. (I'm not considering SLED anymore)

If I just wanna use a computer buy an Apple? Is that what you wanna say? If a secreatary wants to write a document in OpenOffice under Linux and has an error message you say to her go get a PHd first? Or buy an Apple?

Computers are for everyone and it's 2007. The time of geeks only systems has passed.

 

Since video facinate people more people would watch it than read an article.

Or watch the latest Harry Potter movie?

But look at it this way.... why are all techbooks for the blind in braille? Because we learn differently by reading than audio books (or video.).. see http://www.duxburysystems.com/hksb96.asp

Or because it's cheaper to convert an already typed text to braille then to hire a studio and a guy who reads the text, make the tape etc.

 

We could write the CLI commands under the video, but remember tis magazine is intended for noobs the less CLI you are using the better.

Well I don't agree.... and this is the crux of why....

Because you presume n00bies don't want to learn the CLI or how linux works....

No I wanna give an oppurtinity for those who don't wanna learn the CLI. Those who wanna learn it will learn it. But you wanna press everyone to learn it and they won't.

 

This is patently not the fact... indeed we were all n00bies once... and yet many of us chose to learn the CLI...

 

So Im strongly against pretending you don't need the CLI... because sooner or later you will.

Yet.

I decided my level for my tutors now you should decide one for the magazine if it really comes to life.

 

Even XP needs the CLI... and the CLI gives a better understanding and flexibility...

 

Will some users not want to or be intimidated? Sure just like the guy who chose not to go to university but they should be looking at a "linux for dummies" distro's not mandriva or linux in general and really are better off sticking with a Mac just like the guy in the park should decide to go back to school or keep with a job which doesn't need an education ...

 

So my take is many n00bs want to learn linux... including the CLI so unless the magazine is "linux for people who don't want to learn" the CLI should have some place.

 

[edited by tyme to fix quotes...or at least i tried... :)]

 

thx tyme...

Anyway... Dexter you have posted the nice KDE4 magazine proving some of us (you included) still DO READ :D

Mandriva wants to be a Linux for dummies. It is advertised as one. It's not but it will be one day.

 

 

 

Quotes fixed now thanks for the idea tyme.

Edited by dexter11
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I think you went over the quote limit :P - you can't have more than 20 (This is a configurable setting, but really, 20 should be sufficient...). try removing some of the quotes within quotes - just quote what you're directly replying to.

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If I just wanna use a computer buy an Apple? Is that what you wanna say?
YES
If a secreatary wants to write a document in OpenOffice under Linux and has an error message you say to her go get a PHd first? Or buy an Apple?

This is the point you don't need A PHd you just need some reading...

Computers are for everyone and it's 2007. The time of geeks only systems has passed.
Then keep them I don't really care to help ANYONE WHO REFUSES TO READ!

 

 

I decided my level for my tutors

 

| AM NOT INTERESTED I TRIED BEING POLITE BUT THEY ARE CRAP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

.... THIS WHOLE ARGUAMENT IS ABOUT YOU SAYING

Then I saw some video tutorials somewhere and I know that flash and video tutorials are the future in learning. People barely read in these days. They don't have time. I encourage everyone to do flash or video tutors instead of magazines.

 

DO I DO NOT CARE WHAT LEVEL YOU DECIDED ON ... WE ARE TALKING ABOUT A MAGAZINE NOT THE CRAP YOU POSTED ON THE INTERNET AND YOUR LUDICROUS CLAIM THAT READING IS DEAD!

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Gowator and dexter11: please stop squabbling and try to stay on-topic. :rolleyes:

erm perhaps that is what i should have said....

I encourage everyone to do flash or video tutors instead of magazines.

Was the point....

Which quite simply is saying the idea of a magazine is crap... when the thread is about

 

Interest in a magazine for Linux newbies - by us

 

I put forward some ideas for a 21C magazine.... I admit not a "conventional" magazine but one using other media than a printed page or emulation of a printed page on screen. I acknowledged dexter has a point about people not reading them (all good intentions aside ...) I even said I was guilty of doing this...

but

This conversation keeps getting dragged back to the same thing...

 

I know who my tutorial is aimed at. And I know that I don't wanna make complex tutorials except one: an installation tutorial.
I decided my level for my tutors
As I wrote I know who my tutorials are amimed at. They are for people who used Windows before but probably never even heard of Linux. So I won't explain howto switch the computer on or howto double click. My tutors for people who just wanna use their computer for the usual stuff web browsing, reading mail etc and they don't wanna take a computer science exam to do that.

This discussion is about a magazine....some short tutorials with a specific audience are fine BUT they are not a magazine (perhaps they are but that should be discussed not magazines are crap...repeated again and again) AND the statements about text being dead and encouraging everyone not to do them and do video tutorials are simply negative and not contructive.

 

Feel free to question "what is a magazine?".... that was something I wanted to bring up... and I see no reason a magazine in the 21C can't contain video and even video tutorials BUT that is a part of the magazine ...so this is going in circles based on the statement

People barely read in these days. They don't have time. I encourage everyone to do flash or video tutors instead of magazines. there's a reason ubuntuclips exist. Take a look at http://www.virtualsky.net/5minutes for some Mandriva turials. You can see they are much more efficient than a magazine article.

 

This is Dexters opinion.... he is welcome to it but how can we discuss a magazine when all he has to say is

I encourage everyone to do flash or video tutors instead of magazines.

 

because it literally becomes (or became)

How about XXXX

No magazines are rubbish and noone has time to read...

How about YYYY

No magazines are rubbish and noone has time to read...

etc.

 

I tried several times to bring the topic back by gently pointing out that video is a limited medium.

I tried using the example of braille ... and posted a link to a expert opinion... basically saying why spoken books cannot replace braille for learning... and I even used the example of shakespear to which Im told its irrelevant...

 

The point Im trying to make along with emmanuel is you cannot simply replace text with video .. you can suppliment it but not replace it.... The example I used was Shakespears' plays and this is VERY RELEVANT... because these are plays. That is they were written to be READ OUT LOUD or acted ... yet anyone studying Shakespear even superficially will need to READ the play as well as seeing it... and a blind person studying Shakespear will equally want to READ it in Braille NOT only an audio book or even recording of the live play will replace this.

Or because it's cheaper to convert an already typed text to braille then to hire a studio and a guy who reads the text, make the tape etc.

Erm no its not and the article I posted explains why... I was polite enough to follow the links Dexter posted but obviously he didn't read this one...

 

Well in the opening post Darkelve wrote it was for newbies. Did it change now?

I meant short problem oriented videos\flash tutors. They can be organized in categories too. Besides if you'd actually looked at the Mandriva tutors in the link I gave, you'd know how fast you could watch it. You can click through the whole tutorial in no time.

 

For those not following the link its because you learn differently and more deeply by reading...

I could give 1001 examples.. like why the Open University publishes a lot of texts and course materials not just relying on BBC2 to broadcast its courses... but its going nowhere while the answer is "text is dead and video is the future"

 

So far as I can see noone is against having video content but only Dexter thinks ONLY video content is relevant and that magazines are dead.

 

This is then compounded by the assertion that you need a computer science degree or PHd in order to read...

which is the answer to everytime I try and say "video can't cover everything effectively" or that it is not time efficient in everything. This is not simply my opinion... it is the method used by unoiversities the world over. No serious university is arguing to replace the texts with video tutorials.

 

You can click through the whole tutorial in no time.

Erm sure but did you learn anything?

The answer is probably a n00b did but did they learn it better or more efficiently than reading a illustrated text article? The weight of academic opinion in almost every field (perhaps video arts excepted) is you didn't...

 

So the next question IMHO is does watching the video and then reading an accompanying article give a deeper/better understanding? It might... IMHO.... depending on subject matter and how you define a deeper or better understanding.

 

So Im happy to discuss video in the context of a "magazine"... and made several attempts to steer this back but Im not happy to go along with the idea that video is the only way to go and for every other suggestion to be knocked as outdated/irrelevant or requiring a PHd ...and the whole repeating arguament where someone suggests something and Dexter pipes up and says "Video is the only way" is getting tired and distracting...

 

I'm keen to continue the discussion about the magazine.... but not keep going back to how magazines are crap and a waste of time and if Dexter has nothing positive to say about the idea having voiced his opinion once it would be more contructive to not keep knocking everything anyone else contributes and start another thread about short video tutorials for windows users coming to Linux...

 

and finally

Mandriva wants to be a Linux for dummies. It is advertised as one. It's not but it will be one day.

This is again missing the point.... according to Mandriva their basic Discovery say's

Discovery is the ideal product for beginners looking to switch to Linux.

 

beginners != dummies

Specifically in this context it seems clear to me that Mandriva are saying exactly hat they say ... new linux users coming from another OS.... not dummies.

 

As I pointed out (as did others) being a n00b to linux doesn't mean you are stupid or unable to read. It just means you are new to linux. Frankly I find the implications a little offensive ... I wouldn't but a book with "for dummies" in the title or an OS advertised as "for dummies" ... for beginners is not dummies, easy to use is not dummies.

 

What this comes down to is level of interest not stupidity !

As Ix mentioned the other day regarding his phone... he hasn't bothered to put music on it....

I can understand exactly why.... I am not interested in mobile/cell phones except as a phone... come to that any phone ... I get my GF to do "advanced" stuff on my phone because I am not interested in them. Even my old office phone I used to ask my secretary for advanced functions... does this mean I or Ix are "dummies" ?

 

No it means we are not interested in phones like we are in computers.

 

The assertion a computer is merely a tool is incorrect ... for me a phone is a phone but for many its a interesting toy ... Linux is an OS written by geeks for geeks...that doesn't mean you need to be a rocket scientist or have a degree in CS.... it means you need a level of interest in the computer as more than a tool.

 

Im not against people making Linux into a consumer tool/appliance (like a Tivo or router) but the support and learning is then up to them... here is an excellent consumer product

http://www.smeserver.org/

 

but IMHO its not the same as a real distro... because its an appliance like Tivo... or a phone...

Once again if you want an appliance (by which I mean you use it without any interest in how it works) then buy a Mac... Linux should be a choice ... and an informed one, its not for everyone

 

Having said that I have provided linux to several complete n00bs one of whom never used a PC before... (yes they exist) but this is on my back... I have to take responsibility for them and any problems they might have. I have also told several people "buy an Apple" ... based on if they have ANY interest in the computer as anything more than an appliance.

So the secretary and OO is down to the person providing Linux ..their company, their support dept and training dept etc. just as it is with windows and MS office...

 

 

edits:

Specifically in this context it seems clear to me that Mandriva are saying exactly hat they say ... new linux users coming from another OS.... not dummies.

Let me quickly illustrate WHY....a little acid test.

As a mod if I called someone a beginner or a n000b in context you would have no problem ... (I expect) BUT if I call them a dummy or an idiot this is a personal attack...

Hence the two are not the same.... one is offensive the other is a assessment of present ability (in this board in linux)

Edited by Gowator
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How about one or two clips per issue, a longish one (< 5min?)

And also 1 or 2 super short (<1 or 2 min?)

For ad-hoc purposes, geared at "total noob"

 

I am going (brokering) in the same direction as Gowator, that is closing the issue of video by suggesting making them included as some possibility of video material (links) to get punters in, but not as main material at all. Do not want to hear any more about video, clips, and the like.

 

Lets go back to the magazine concept, and what readers would expect, or what readers would start liking, and what readers could do with in terms of information

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My two cents:

 

Video tutorials are useful for some people, while written tutorials (with or without pictures) are useful for other people. There are millions of users out there. Every user has a different approach to computing, a different level of knowledge. There won't be ONE tutorial that will satisfy all users. ;)

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My two cents:

 

Video tutorials are useful for some people, while written tutorials (with or without pictures) are useful for other people. There are millions of users out there. Every user has a different approach to computing, a different level of knowledge. There won't be ONE tutorial that will satisfy all users. ;)

But darn it, if we accept that idea then we can't have pages of discussion on which is better!! :cry:

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My two cents:

 

Video tutorials are useful for some people, while written tutorials (with or without pictures) are useful for other people. There are millions of users out there. Every user has a different approach to computing, a different level of knowledge. There won't be ONE tutorial that will satisfy all users. ;)

 

You're just plain wrong! This ONE single tutorial will satisfy all tutorial needs you might ever have!

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Gowator and dexter11: please stop squabbling and try to stay on-topic. :rolleyes:

I appreciate the goodwill and I know it's your duty as a moderator but I want to answer him. First because he misinterprets some of my thoughts, second he pissed me off. It doesn't happen too often so bear with me.

 

Now Gowator:

Since when

I know that flash and video tutorials are the future in learning
equals to
READING IS DEAD
HUH?

I believe that flash\video is more efficient in learning. And I still do. Oh your link. Yes I looked at it and sorry but I didn't have the time and interest to read through all the probably 20 pages about various braille techniques, punctuation codes and God knows what else to find the probably 5 lines which is relevant here. Besides I read something else there clicking on "About Us":

Duxbury Systems leads the world in software for braille. The Duxbury Braille Translator (DBT) and MegaDots, are used by virtually all of the world's leading braille publishers.
Oh what a surprise a company which is living from selling braille software is telling reading is more efficient in learning. It's almost as credible when MS finds out Windows is cheaper.

And I didn't even mention that people got most of their information visually. So bringing an example of blind people is not really appropiate. Unless of course this magazine is geared toward blind people.

I brought my tutorial as an example not just beacause it could be the base of this magazine but because it reflects what I would expect from a tutorial as a newbie. You don't like it so what. I couldn't care less. Guess what, it's not for those people who already know their way around Linux. Insult it any way you can at least I did something.

Now about your stone age attitude which will have a clear negative effect on the magazine IMHO.

Linux is an OS written by geeks for geeks...

Linux should be a choice ... and an informed one, its not for everyone

No it's not true. It was years ago and Linux is still not perfect and probably never will, but it's not just a geeks toy anymore. I'm not against CLI or giving in depths info. I'm against forcing anyone to learn it. Yeah the people who "refuse to read". Call them lazy idiots, treat them as enemies that will make the magazine popular.

I admitted it and even you admitted it that we don't read magazines or any long texts in my case on the computer. I still have a CRT and I already spend too much time in front of it and I think I'm not the only one. But never mind write text only articles, link them tech manuals, make the readers learn no matter if they want to or not. I don't care, I don't think I will participate in this magazine.

 

P:S. I could write about the your Shakespeare example but it's enough for now. I let the steam out... until your next post.

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P:S. I could write about the your Shakespeare example but it's enough for now. I let the steam out... until your next post.

:D me too !

phhhhsssss (noise of me letting off steam)

Since when
I know that flash and video tutorials are the future in learning
equals to
READING IS DEAD
HUH?

Well it seemed from your first post.... and the truth is you pissed me off too by not acknowledging these questions.... largely the discouragement of people helping in the magazine concept which I found non-contructive... specifically

I encourage everyone to do flash or video tutors instead of magazines.

 

I believe that flash\video is more efficient in learning. And I still do.
You are welcome but the weight of academic opinion is not at least in video ALONE.... and like artic said its also dependent on the individual. But its also as I pointed out that we learn differently when we read than watching video or listening to tapes. An obvious example is pronounciation... you can read all the phoenetic representations you want but unless you actually hear the words being spoken you will never get the accent correct.... and this works in reverse as well.

 

A simple example is math where some concepts can be explained neatly in math shorthand in a line but would take a 3 hour video to even scratch the surface vs a geometry problem where a graphic demonstration might explain in 10 seconds what is 20 pages of proof but onwards....

Oh what a surprise a company which is living from selling braille software is telling reading is more efficient in learning. It's almost as credible when MS finds out Windows is cheaper.

Its the first google link I found but the reasoin i used Braille is because I have a friend who specialises in teaching blind people. We had this discussion a long time ago with me saying how new technology could aid blind people learning and having it explained why it can't replace a method of reading... if you search the internet you will see many blind charities actively campainging for less audio books and more braille in libraries etc.

 

And I didn't even mention that people got most of their information visually. So bringing an example of blind people is not really appropiate. Unless of course this magazine is geared toward blind people.
They also disguard the majority of that information.... (over 90% of it is filtered out subconciously in NT people). Those people who filter outless information are often clinically not normal... the PC term is autism spectrum disorders (which I "suffer" from very mildly at the normal end of the spectrum) but most people subcounciosly disguard most of the visual information they get (and aural) ... if you know anyone who feels uncomfortable in crowds etc. this is often because they are unable to filter out enough information and what can occur is a total block in a semi-catonic state while the body tries to process and filter the deluge of information.

 

However this leads into a second point not unrelated to your point about people reading less.

One reason is the deluge of information available elsewhere.... People are getting thier news from the internet and have access to hundreds of cable channels but this is actually descreasing attention span and ability to learn details. Overall either the human race is getting more stupid incredibly quickly OR peope are learning less effectively than they did in the past and you can pick any period over the last 50 years.

 

I'll use a UK example (sorry but its what I know) on education ... when I took my schooling (back in the 70's) my math at age 16 was woefully behind being able to follow the text books my father had from school.... and by that I mean not even close. Calculators were not common, in that generation most of my fathers mathemetitian colleages still used slide rules at work... (and these were working for the British Nuclear fuels) ...

{I mention this because the typical answer would be "but we have calculators now} ...

My brother is 2 years younger than I and it was noticable that at his age 16 exams he couldn't even do half of the paper I had taken 2 years before because the standard had been dropped so low... abd ghe wenbt oin and did a pre-univeristy math intensive prep (math, pure math and stats...) and only half way through this ws he doing some of the things we had done 2 yrs earlier .... and its become worse and worse... so that now 16 year olds aren't even learning basic calculus.

 

This is I guess partly the pressure to get more people with certificates but also I bleive reflects the general learning ability of people in the "video culture" and partly the fact we have calculators even on our phones...

 

When the audio cassette and phone were invented these were largelly heralded as the death of the wirtten word ... but it hasn't proven so... indeed the internet has come and expanded the written word considerably... and Wikipedia et al... are more accepted methods of finding out facts than watching a video ...

 

I brought my tutorial as an example not just beacause it could be the base of this magazine but because it reflects what I would expect from a tutorial as a newbie. You don't like it so what. I couldn't care less. Guess what, it's not for those people who already know their way around Linux. Insult it any way you can at least I did something.

Yeah like I say we were both pissed... they are actually quite nice for the intended purpose....

 

Now about your stone age attitude which will have a clear negative effect on the magazine IMHO.
Linux is an OS written by geeks for geeks...

Linux should be a choice ... and an informed one, its not for everyone

No it's not true. It was years ago and Linux is still not perfect and probably never will, but it's not just a geeks toy anymore. I'm not against CLI or giving in depths info. I'm against forcing anyone to learn it. Yeah the people who "refuse to read". Call them lazy idiots, treat them as enemies that will make the magazine popular.

I admitted it and even you admitted it that we don't read magazines or any long texts in my case on the computer. I still have a CRT and I already spend too much time in front of it and I think I'm not the only one. But never mind write text only articles, link them tech manuals, make the readers learn no matter if they want to or not. I don't care, I don't think I will participate in this magazine.

This is IMHO several issues....

1/ I strongly beleive linux (or any OS) should be an informed choice. I'm not sure OS-X is for me... but I am sure its for lots of people... and way more suited to linux for people who don't want to understand how things work... or even just don't want ot meddle with their system... One of my best firneds a linux engineer uses OS-X at home because he doesn't want to mess about with "work" when he's at home... except for fun....

 

2/ Noone is talking about forcing people to learn the CLI... I have a lot of old linux mags lying about... and nearly all of them have articles, tutorials etc. on different levels... One article on how to use Open Office and another on kernel module writing.... I just don't read the stuff aimed at too low a level for my interest....

 

Now for a mag I pay for this is one thing, people might justifyably think they don't wanna pay hard earned cash for a mag where only 30% of the content is at their level ?? but a FREE community magazine is a competely different thing (at least to me)....you can read the parts you like and most importantly you can progress up the levels ... and keep the old mags and go back and read the parts that were previously above your level....

 

3/ The CLI will always be a part of linux by design.... in fact you can't not use it even if you don't realise it...because the GUI apps are all (with few exceptions) front ends to CLI apps... be this printing via ghostscript or burning a CD in k3B the GUI just generates the CLI.... and in general doesn't call libraries directly like Windows does. (and the ones that do are considered bad practice) because of the way linux (or *NIX) is designed...

 

Its also a design quirk by its distributed development model that the GUI tools are never comprehensive because they are based on pre-existing CLI apps or modifying text files.... so in effect this means that sooner or later your hardware will be new or something and you do need to use the CLI... (as opposed to Windows where it just doesn't work at least in linux you can usually hack it to work BUT via the CLI....

 

So this is what I mean when I say its not "honest" to advertise linux as something you can use effectively without ever using the CLI.... Im more than happy for it to progress .. I just don't see how linux by design will ever be CLI free and support hardware and community development....

 

Again look at OS-X not so different underneath but because of the packaging around it (and excluding using the CLI and doing your own development) is limited by hardware... but that's a huge difference IMHO because Apple is a commerical company that makes most of the hardware and so its supported OR other companies make it Mac compatible.... and this is also why (or at least a major reason) so few companies support linux... to the same extent as even OS-X which has a similar market share.

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