mdk 2007.0 official, woes and woes

[Helmut]

Hi Folks, I have used mdk for years, but the "2007.0 Official" has me totally beaten and stumped!

To start with: Why I use Mandriva in the first place, is because of the excellent graphical tools. Using the MCC loged in as "root" makes the konsole just about superflous. I just can not remember all that cryptical stuff needed to get my computer working through a console. I mean I am not legasthenic, I do have a B Sc, M Sc and a Ph D in Engineering /Digital Technology, but I just can't remember all the syntax needed to get my system working properly via the console. The MCC is fantastic, and as root using the MCC you can make your box work exactly as you need it. This and only this is the reason why I prefer and use Mandriva! With 2007 it is all a very different story:

 

To date, I spent two entire days(!) and a total of seven installs trying try to make it more or less work, but it does not really. To say it is limping would be flattering. (And yes, I did read the errata first!) But here's some of the stuff what happened:

First try, the mouse didn't work at all. So I pressed [Alt+F2] and put in

kdesu "kwrite /etc/X11/xorg.conf" .

Then scrolled down to "devices" and changed the line "/dev/mouse" to "/dev/input/mouse0". But still no (PS2) mouse. Tried "/device/dev/mouse" , tried "/dev/psmouse" but still no mouse. So I struck up a console and called up the MCC in its most basic graphical form. After editing/correcting the mouse entry, it worked. Hooray for the MCC!

 

Now, there was very much software installed, much more than I had ever expected. Too much for me. Now I did mark what I wanted during install, I certainly did, and chose "individual packages" too, but very much other stuff was installed, and I certainly do not think it was just a matter of dependancies. So I called up the new software tool (within the mcc) in an attempt to get rid of the unwanted stuff it had installed without being asked to. Stuff installed without being marked during installation.

The new software manager within the MCC did not behave anything like what was expected, and it does not even have a legend for explaining what those funny-looking marks in front of the listed packages mean. But the missing legend was not the problem. Anyway, software being "uninstalled" as the popup exactly said while doing so, was actually being installed, and vice versa. Numerous tries made it all worse. In the end it was a total mess and there was lots of stuff not working. This called for a few re-installs.

After the fourth (!) re-installation I decided to leave the software just as it was after install, and continue anyway.

Now, I did not mention yet that every time the system boots up anew, a popup opens "Wait installing", and then a second one also opens "Please wait installing packages", then a third popup opens "ERROR Could not install the CUPS printing system". But I just ignore that and continue anyway, after all, the printer (hp psc1100) works fine.

 

The next surpise: The theme "Canyon" being a redish-brown that doesnt strain your eyes, was not included. Only loads of blueish stuff, nothing for me or my eyes. Well, but you can't have it all. So I decided to address that later on, maybe get it from GNOME.org.

 

The next surprise: "Root Logins not allowed"! No, this is not a sick joke, and I'm not kidding, no root logins allowed!

Remember, the reason for me having Mandriva is because I just can not remember the syntax needed on a Konsole, and Mandriva/Mandrake always had the best graphical tools that make consoles just about superflous. But with 2007, I cannot login as root, and some of the consequences are pretty harsh, like these:

 

-I now can not change permissions! I do not use the default "home" directory. My dual-boot system has numerous common drives and partitions in vfat, each with a few dozen parent files (letters, pics) with countless other files within. I can not access these any more. I need to put out a CV but can't get at it, at least not from Mandriva 2007...

 

-I now can not make a link on the desktop leading to my common partitions or common files. As I do not own the permissions any more to my own files, and can not change them graphically any more, no permission is granted to make any links to them...

 

To say it plainly, I am absolutely and totally fed up!

Mandriva 2006 would not install on my box because of x11 problems (only psychedelic stripes on the screen, no console or anything at all possible exept pulling the plug), and 2007 seems to be a serious candidate for continueing that tradition of improperly working software released. If a release candidate doesn't work properly yet, it should be kept as Cooker until it does. What a shame really, I wished this didn't happen to Mandriva again...

 

By the way, Mandriva 2007 has no proper AC97 sound driver (2005 SE did!), and the nvidia 3D driver seems to be missing too. Good I don't need 3D, one thing less to worry about.

 

I do need a Computer that works, but with this software I can't get it working right. In that respect, it seems to have very little in common with old Mandrake versions. It is easier and a lot quicker getting XP to work, including all those patches, SP's, extras, add-ons, virus-scanners, and the like. If Mandriva 2007 is just a cooker version let loose on the community, I would expect Mandriva to label it as cooker. But what was installed is called "2007 official" and should be expected to have been tested. My old installation (2005SE) has been replaced, and the replaceing 2007 doesn't do the job yet. I think it could have gotten some more cooking before being let loose on the unsuspecting public...

 

I think I might go back to 2005SE because it does actually work. But I really should switch to something more modern. Perhaps Fedora, Suse, or something like that, or are there be some revolutionary fixes expected really soon?

regards,

Helmut

Edited October 15, 2006 by Helmut

[Gowator]

I just ignore that one and continue anyway, after all, the printer works fine.

Hmm you should probably sort it out...

Obviously it shouldn't happen but it is and Im guessing urmpi is stuck in a loop over one thing and this is why its acting strangely for other stuff.

 

It could be a mistake in the deps list ... that is you installed something that has a orphan dep ...

The next surprise: "Root Logins not allowed"! No, not a sick joke, it doesn't work! Remember, the reason for me having Mandriva is because I just can not remember the syntax needed on a Konsole, and Mandriva/Mandrake always had nice graphical tools that make a console just about superflous.

 

There is absolutely no need to log in as root (unless you are running a realtime recording studio in which case it might provide better realtime recording) ...

 

Specifically

-I can not change permissions! My dual-boot system has common partitions in vfat, each with a few dozen parent files (letters, pics) with countless other files within. I can not access these any more. I need to put out a CV but can't get at it.

There are countless ways of doing this from the MCC to gnome volume manager or kdiskfree or even webmin.... non of these require a root login to the desktop..

 

Once you set up the partition as user mountable or mounted at boot then it will not require any special access ...

 

No, not a sick joke, it doesn't work!

Quite frankly if you can't work out how to mount a disk it would be a sick joke allowing you access to the desktop as root.

You sound like someone who just bought a performance car complaining that the engine management system won't let you take it past the red line and blow-up the engine.... the root login at X is disabled for a good reason and there is no need to have a root desktop ...

 

You should stop and consider why .. instead of complaining about something put there for your protection, its a 30 second hack to fix it but why would you want to? Almost all experinced people DO NOT EVER access the desktop as root ... because it is taking unnecassary risks and is an accident waiting to happen ...

 

If experienced people don't do it then you should at least ask yourself why?

 

Think of it in another context ....why is the firing pin on an automatic disengaged while you are loading it?

Why do lifts get programmed so they don't open the doors between stories?

Why will an automatic car not start unless its in park or neutral?

[Helmut]

Thanks Gowator,

 

You know I highly respect your opinion and am always thankful for your comments. I am quite sure you know what you are talking about.

 

I'll give it another go and hope it works. The described problems are only the worst being encountered. At the moment I can hardly see what I am writing because the cursor is being improperly shown. It remains as a mark at every spot where it has been, and where it is now is not shown.

If I can't get it working halfway right, I shall go back to 2005 which is the youngest version that will. But maybe I should rather install something more modern.

 

By the way, one point about security: if you are alone in the house and need to visit the bathroom, you probably wouldn't lock the door behind you. Likewise I don't have to be locked out from adjusting my box they way I need it. I have performed very many installations and administrate lots of boxes, but this has me stumped.

regards,

Helmut

[arctic]

I will only add some info on the new rpmdrake.

 

I have followed the development of rpmdrake in cooker and it was very, very problematic to use at some point and horribl broken. The developers worked hard on getting a basic functionality out of that tool until Mdv 2007 was released (yes, they were under pressure). Now it basically works, but it is not bug-free yet as there was not enough time for a very thorough testing of all functions available (annoying, I know, but that's life). There will be fixes for rpmdrake in the future, rest assured. But still, the tool basically works.

 

If you are unsatisfied with rpmdrake, use the command-line urpmi/urpme tool for installing and removing packages. It works well and is not complicated.

 

[off-topic]

if you are alone in the house and need to visit the bathroom, you probably wouldn't lock the door behind you.

I know people that lock the door nonetheless. :D

[/off-topic]

[Helmut]

Thanks, arctic.

I will not mess with the installed software after installation, unless there is a really good reason to do so!

However this is now the 8th installation, and it is riddled with problems. I can hardly see what I am writing, the sound does not work, I can not acces my files, etc etc.

I will now logout now and continue trying. If this box doesn't work within the next hours, I will wipe out the linux partitions and put something else on, whatever the local gas station stocks in their magazine stand.

regards,

Helmut

Edited October 15, 2006 by Helmut

[arctic]

You could alternatively download and use e.g. Kanotix or other 1-CD releases in the meantime. Kanotix works well, too and has OOo and such stuff included, too.

[ffi]

Hi Helmut, which mirror are you using and did you also try smart --gui instead of rpmdrake? (distrib-coffee seems to be fast and up-to-date most of the time)

Edited October 15, 2006 by ffi

[Gowator]

Helmut, I think you have one fundamental thing which is screwing everything else up....and that one thing is something urmpi is stuck halfway on....

Like I say it shouldn't happen ... but it has and I think until its sorted out it will keep interfering.

By the way, one point about security: if you are alone in the house and need to visit the bathroom, you probably wouldn't lock the door behind you. Likewise I don't have to be locked out from adjusting my box they way I need it.

Noone is locking you out.... everything you want to do can be done without root owning the X session...

 

A better analogy is why food blenders won't work unless the lid is locked in place.... or why washiung machines don't start unless thew door is closed...

If you are really determined you can stick a matchstick into the switch and stick your hand in while its on...or you can do the same with the washing machine and flood the room...

 

However note you CAN buy hand blenders which will chop your fingers off if you stick them in and upright washing machines designed to be used this way...

 

The way Linux is designed is to run as a multiuser system with safeguards .. its the fundamental design of linux... (indeed all *nix and *bsd) ...this doesn't just affect the user experience either... its fundamental to the design that userspace is kept seperate to kernel space.

 

This is why X should not be able to crash your system (it can crash itself but not the whole kernel because its protected from doing so)

(The same can be said for things like apache - its run in userspace) .. hence it can crash but it can't crash the system...

Think of it like a layered system.... root has access to process 1 which is init...

All of the programs written for user space assume that this protection is in place because that is the way programs are made for linux..

This is why for instance k3b has a seperate setup prog which runs as root... so that k3b itself is operating in user space... the same is true for almost all linux progs with a few exceptions like network monitoring tools...

 

Even OS-X does this but they have written a whole interface over the top (however for many things you still need to access the root account). The only OS that doesn't is Windows where the GUI is run as part of the kernel processes. This is why windows can crash a whole system...

 

Security wise? Well the apps which are designed not to run as root .. isn't that the chioce of the person writing the app? Since its GPL you are free to modify the code but id they decide they don't want their app running as root surely that's up to them?

 

Your cursor prob sounds like a prob in the xorg.conf... possibly due to the driver and probably has a simple workaround in the driver switches. This sounds like the #2 thing to workout after the urmpi thing?

 

 

edits:

Also are you trying to use the XGL... it could simply be your card is not supported?

[Helmut]

Hi folks, and thanks!

 

Its amazing how good these live CD's work! I'm actually using the Conference-DVD from the last Linuxtag 2006 a Kubuntu live. It came with another DVD, a collection of BSD's. Also, my daughter has a SUSE 10.1 DVD

I'll give them a trynow and see what happens. I'll add a post then. Btw, no XGL activated.

Cheers,

Helmut

Edited October 15, 2006 by Helmut

[Gowator]

Helmut

 

Your xorg.conf that is working in Kubunti live SHOULD work for Mandriva too.....

 

For accessing your windows files in a hurry I'd say the same as arctic.... if the kubuntu isn't working for this TRY kanotix.. I don't know Kubuntu Live but I know as he says you will hget access to the files AND working OO and Printing....

 

If you use the LIVe CD and mount your / readwrite (simple in the kanotix GUI) you can copy the working one into the /etc/X11 directory (you probably wanna backup the existing one by copying it )

[DarkFoss]

One easy way to get permissions changed is to open a console and su to root.

Then type konqueror. Now you can set all your permissions and tweak conf files ect from the comfort of a gui.

[AussieJohn]

Or if you are using KDE then just type in ....... kdesu konqueror ...... in one go and hit enter then type your root password. Just one less action.

 

Cheers. John

[ianw1974]

I can only think your display problems are due to a wrong driver being selected. Maybe start with VESA, and then work from there.

[sjaglin]

Hi There,

 

I will use Helmut's topic to ask mt few questions as I am feeling a bit down as well about Mandriva (Boooh Wooh), I even started downloading suse 10.1 remastered but am only contemplating.

 

First, these are very basic questions, that s probably why i have not seen the answers so far.

 

Like Helmut I had problems installing mdv 2007 on my new system. I upgraded recently to an Athlon 64 3500+ on an am2 mobo in order to see the difference between 32bits and 64bits architectures.

 

So I wached a DVD from linux magazine in (UK version) and booted. First it would not work until I did the magical Linux noapic nolapic boot tweak. Then it would not pick up my mouse version (Microsoft basic wheely thing). I solved all that from the cmd line and drakconf.

 

From there onwards I used easy urpmi, picking my sources as x86_64, and then hell broke loose, starting with my printer not working and all the rest...

 

Then as soon as I wanted to update I had some messages, uncompatible architecture business! The version of DVD I have installed the 32bits version and not the 64bits and I was trying to install the 64bits updates!

 

So, the questions :

 

1- How can I force the 64 Bits install AND still use the noapic nolapic tweak?

 

2- Is my processor a i686, or a x86_64 and which update sources shall I use?

 

3- Once KDE is running how do I know which architecture of software was installed?arch tell me i686 but I think that is only the type of cpu, not the mdv version.

 

I know this is very basic stuff but I can t find the answers. I found wikipedia a bit vague on the subject.

 

So in the meantime I have my 32bits version on mdv 2007 installed on my main partition and that works well, apart froma couple of crashes which might be hardware based. I am ashamed to say that winfartXP did install well and my games are running fine (in 32 bits).

 

Well that's it.

 

A last line for Helmut, I hope you carry-on trying, there is no great victories without any harsh battles!

 

Stef

 

[Gowator]

Or if you are using KDE then just type in ....... kdesu konqueror ...... in one go and hit enter then type your root password. Just one less action.

 

Cheers. John

You can even add a menu item with this ... just exactly as John said in the "command" part. Indeed even better you can customise a konqueror profile and save it and load konqueror with that profile..

 

kdesu konqueror --profile root-konq (or similar)

 

In order to make this safer you can make it look different using --caption

or

kdesu konqueror --caption "root" --title "root-konq" --name name --style CDE settings:/

 

Choose your own style but make it different to remind you its a root konq.....