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libdvdcss


wilcal
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I'd like to ask input of this Group as to what their

feelings or experience is with using the ever popular

libdvdcss codec is in respect to copyright fees.

 

http://developers.videolan.org/libdvdcss/

 

states:

 

"libdvdcss is a simple library designed for accessing

DVDs like a block device without having to bother about

the decryption".

 

The technology embedded into a DVD is a patented and copyrighted

technology under Philips and Sony. Anytime you play a

DVD effectively you have to pay a copyright fee to these

organizations for the right to do that. I am open to comment

or challenge to that position.

 

I have asked a number of individuals in a number of

organizations that are distributing libdvdcss to define

where they think they are positioned and I have received no

answer. That does not mean that it's not illegal, or illegal,

to use libdvdcss? It may just mean that Philips/Sony are

just not expending the effort to chase the users.

 

When you purchase a DVD Player the cost of that Player

includes a tiny fee for the right to view a DVD. A similar

situation exists in the Windows world where in order to

view a WMV file you are paying a tiny fee for the codec

to do so. I'm sure many here have purchased a download

for WinBlows XP for the codec to view DVDs.

 

http://www.sonic.com/products/Consumer/Cin.../quicklook.aspx

 

Here's my challenge. If I was to create a Linux based DVD Player

based on libdvdcss and sell 10's of thousands of those on

the consumer market is the likes of Philips/Sony gonna get upset?

 

Thanks for your thoughts.

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I think that if Philips/Sony have copyrighted that technology then nobody can replicate that technology. I don't think it applies to watching the DVD, but for using the protecting technology on another product for the same means - to protect.

 

To watch my DVD I have to be able to decode it. Any costs associated with whatever technology is encrypting the DVD or whatever, is most likely borne in the price of the DVD, and not any associated software that decodes it.

 

I should be able to watch my DVD in whatever hardware I like, and I can do. Codecs are normally free download for viewing such products, and I've never had to purchase ANY to watch DVD's or any such filetype either, like wmv for example, or mpg, avi, or others. You will however have to purchase codecs to ENCODE DVD's or at least the functionality of an application to do it, which is an entirely different ballgame.

 

Think of it this way, most if not all vendor PC's these days are sold with PowerDVD bundled with it. Whilst this product cost will be hidden in the price of the PC you buy, I don't think it would be bearing a cost as a pay-per-view for each time you want to watch your DVD. This should already have been covered in the price of the DVD. Who says I can only watch my DVD x amount of times, or if I want to watch it more, I should pay a small surcharge to Philips/Sony? That won't happen, people wouldn't bother buying the movie at full price, to then pay more later.

 

As far as I can see, I don't think the manufacture of DVD players covers a license for watching DVD's. They are region encoded, and you normally have to chip it or pay for it to become region-free.

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As far as I can see, I don't think the manufacture of DVD players covers a license for watching DVD's.

They are region encoded, and you normally have to chip it or pay for it to become region-free.

 

Actually it does in the same way as an Audio CD Player uses the Philips Red Book patent.

Anytime you play an Audio CD you have to have paid a copyright fee for the decode.

This is a very gray area and I suspect that Philips/Sony are just letting it all ride for the time being.

 

Maybe until they get a juicy enough victim to chop up in court.

 

Thanks for your thoughts.

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That's why I thought the costs were borne in the purchasing of the disk, rather than the actual players themselves. I could be wrong, as I suppose the cost could be borne in both disks and players.

 

Unless I dreamt it, I have a funny feeling there are already some Linux DVD players out there. Either that or I'm feeling a sense of deja vu :P

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Here's my challenge. If I was to create a Linux based DVD Player

based on libdvdcss and sell 10's of thousands of those on

the consumer market is the likes of Philips/Sony gonna get upset?

 

Thanks for your thoughts.

Erm, legal or not they are still going to get upset!

Equally valid is the fact that there is no one law covering thius worldwide. IP doesn't exist in many countries so how can it be illegal?

In the same way blocking a device against the purpose it was designed is illegal in the UK for instance and cracking region coding is legal in Australia...

France has just made iPod sales illegal unless Apple provide a legal utility to use the purchased media on other players and hopefully they will extend this to DVD sales and start fining sony for every disk they sell. Its already legal in France to sell other region coded DVD's for instance ...

 

The problem is that you are not going to get to make 10's of thousands of players because Sony will have you in court and in costs up to your neck before you can blink....its immaterial if they are right or not or even have a case unless you have a spare 10M$ or so to spend on the case because they will just pile costs on you until you break so unless you do it in a country that DVD decoding is legal you won't get very far.

 

This happens all the time, Anhauser Bruch have it in the court records of St. Louis that they stole the recipee for Budweiser from Budwar since they sued another brewery claiming to have 'original' Czech beer in St Louis but they still have a standing court battle in every country with any economy at all simply aiming to make it cost to much for the original brewery to sell their won beer....

 

The fact what they did is illegal irrelevant so long as they have enough money to pay to have the smaller company in court. If the other company win in one country they just pile on the costs elsewhere...or if its possible appeal and reappeal to higher courts.. they simply need to stop you making the players until your stock is useless and your investment dissapeared at which point they will offer you an out of court settlement with a compromise agreements gagging you from discussing it.. since by this time you are heavily in debt you will accept it.

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i don't know of any legal problems with libdvdcss, but there have been some issues with libdecss: http://www.eff.org/IP/Video/DVDCCA_case/20040122_eff_pr.php

Here's some more documents worth a read:

 

http://www.licensing.philips.com/licensees...cuments752.html

 

You can look at these docs in a couple ways. One

is obvious. If you are going to build a DVD drive

you better be paying a license fee. If you are

going to create a software decode codec for Audio-CD

and/or DVD playback then it gets a little gray.

The ruling you pointed out states that because

DVD is pervasive if someone can figure out how

to read them then so be it. But, that person cannot

pass it on to someone else. But, because it's become

so commonly pervasive then it ain't worth pursuing

everyone that has a copy or passes it on. I suspect

that's where we are right now.

 

The danger here, and what I am driving at, if I created

a commercial product that contained libdvdcss and that

became wildly successful then I think that Philips

would invite me to court and ask for its license fees.

There is such an open source product. It is:

 

http://www.geexbox.org/en/index.html

 

this is a slick little thing that converts your PC

to a DVD Player in the wink of an eye. I suggest that

if this thing became wildly successful and used

in a commercial venture then Philips/Sony would become

pretty upset.

 

Thanks for your thoughts.

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This happens all the time, Anhauser Bruch have it in the court records of St. Louis that they stole the recipee for Budweiser from Budwar since they sued another brewery claiming to have 'original' Czech beer in St Louis but they still have a standing court battle in every country with any economy at all simply aiming to make it cost to much for the original brewery to sell their won beer....

 

The fact what they did is illegal irrelevant so long as they have enough money to pay to have the smaller company in court. If the other company win in one country they just pile on the costs elsewhere...or if its possible appeal and reappeal to higher courts.

 

They must have lost out in the UK courts. Budvar (with 'Budweiser' as a subtitle) is now very popular here. It ain't cheap, but is reasonably in-line with other imported beers of high quality (read: NOT Bud. God I hate that watered-down goat's pee).

 

As for the players: try asking your OEM computer vendor. I'm pretty sure Windows can't play DVDs 'natively' - OEM installs I've seen tend to come with PowerDVD or WinDVD installed for the codecs. Better yet, try asking Cyberlink or Intervideo, who presumably licensed the tech from the copyright-holders.

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They must have lost out in the UK courts. Budvar (with 'Budweiser' as a subtitle) is now very popular here. It ain't cheap, but is reasonably in-line with other imported beers of high quality (read: NOT Bud. God I hate that watered-down goat's pee).

I think the UK was an out of court settlement ...However you can find the whole story on google :D its really quite interesting

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offtopic My father called american beer 'socks water', I myself have never tasted one (and hopefully never will). I've read that Budweiser is exporting a special beer to the USA to meet its' food safety requirements (boiling it up and then cooling?).

 

In Latvia we have a very strong beer making tradition and almost no foreign beers can be bought, because all drink the local ones.

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there are some good american beers, but they aren't the ones you find everywhere (coors, budweiser, miller) but more the ones you can only find in certain areas (yuengling being the best example).

 

what were we talking about again? :unsure:

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there are some good american beers, but they aren't the ones you find everywhere (coors, budweiser, miller) but more the ones you can only find in certain areas (yuengling being the best example).

 

what were we talking about again? :unsure:

The legality or not of kicking off your shoes, sitting back and popping a beer and watching a DVD?

 

UK beer is very much the same, there are probably 100 pints of industrial stuff sold to every decent real pint.

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