New versions of programs with older Mandriva?

[neddie]

These are just general questions regarding the setup of rpms for versions of Mandriva apart from the current latest.

For example, I have Mandriva LE2005, not exactly an ancient version but since 2006 came out it's not the latest. I don't particularly want to upgrade to 2006, because it's currently running so well, so the question is, can I keep 2005 but get later versions of the programs that run on it?

 

I'd quite like to get OpenOffice 2, and Digikam 0.8, a less crash-prone Amarok and if possible a new version of Kate. I tried to report some Kate bugs but my version of KDE (3.3) isn't even listed on their bug report form anymore, so I guess the bugs have been fixed in a later version.

 

I get all my software via easy urpmi, which I find great, but it seems that it only lists a single version of the software for each OS version. Am I right, that for example OpenOffice 2 will never be available for 2005LE via easy urpmi? I understand that adding 2006 rpms to a 2005LE system is a bad idea, so am I stuck? Or are these new versions not even available for 2006 yet, do they require some version of Cooker?

 

Are subsequent versions of Mandriva really so different and so incompatible that upgrading a simple editor program requires upgrading the entire operating system? It's only a few months since 2005LE came out, do all Mandriva users upgrade their entire OS so often?

[scarecrow]

Openoffice 2.0.1 is trivial: Just remove your version,, get the latest OOo build and install the RPM's. You shouldn't expect desktop integration this way, of course, but other than that it should work gr8.

The other solution is compiling yourself OOo from source- normally it would take you some six hours for the final compiling, and six weeks for sorting the sources out.

Same applies for KDE apps: If there are no binaries for your distro, then make them yourself- either traditionally ( configure, make, su -c "make install") or for KDE apps "unsermake" instead of "make". You can also read the Mandy handbook and learn how to roll your own RPM's- it's certainly much more complex than making binaries for Slackware, Arch Linux, Gentoo, or Debian, but still not exhessively difficult.

Edited January 29, 2006 by scarecrow

[Crashdamage]

In the standard Open Office package downloadable from OO.org, there's a rpm included to install to get desktop integration for Mandriva and other distros. Just install that rpm after unpacking the tarball and installing OO.org.

 

I update my system with later verisons of software all the time. Later rpms will often work on earlier distro versions, but some care is needed. My system now is based on 10.1, but it's really a mismash of 10.1, 2005LE, 2006, a few generic rpms or from other distros like Fedora and software I've downloaded directly from project websites, such as Firefox 1.5, Thunderbird 1.5, OO.org 2.0, Bastille, Portsentry, etc. etc. But I avoid Cooker stuff when possible.

 

What I do to keep from trashing things is when installing something not compiled specifically for 10.1 is to do a test install first:

 

# urpmi -v --test <packagename>

 

Most times if anything will break or installation is just not possible that will tell you. The '-v' option will give you more info to help resolve any problems.

 

As for installing from source, it's far better to learn to use Checkinstall (included with your CDs) than install directly from source. Checkinstall is a very handy little utility that will easily make a reusable rpm from a tarball and install it. That way, your rpm database stays correct, you now have a rpm you can reinstall if need be, and uninstalling the software is far easier. Basically, Checkinstall simply replaces the usual commands:

 

# ./configure

# make

# make install

 

...with:

 

# ./configure

# make

# checkinstall

 

Keep in mind that does not make a rpm suitable for distribution to others, it's a very simple rpm. But it's fine for your own use.

[scarecrow]

there's a rpm included to install to get desktop integration for Mandriva and other distros. 

 

There isn't any, of course.

These RPM's are just for the menus, and not for system+desktop integration- for that you need the OOo code being built specifically for your distro.

[Crashdamage]

Hey, the OO.org rpm is called: desktop-integration/openoffice.org-mandriva-menus-2.0.0-3.noarch.rpm

So, I figured it did what it said, 'desktop-integration'. I didn't catch the little 'mandriva-menus' disclaimer at the end. My bad. But I shouldn't have opened my mouth I guess, since I've never used it. Don't need desktop-integration.

[scarecrow]

Factly, so far extremely few distros offer real "desktop integration" for OOo 2. The reason is fairly simple- compiling OOo2 is a biatch (more than eleven million lines of code!), and the code is extremely complex.

IMHO more difficult than compiling the whole KDE suite (cause there you can compile one part after the other, in the correct order...).

[neddie]

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "desktop integration", apart from the entries in the main menu and the context menu entries when you right-click on a file... About OpenOffice, I tried downloading with BitTorrent, but all I got was a language pack :/ so I tried again with a straight download and got a (large) bunch of rpms - I'll give this a go later.

 

Back to the original question though, is it then true that new versions of programs will never be available via easy-urpmi for 2005LE? That makes it far less cooler than I thought. So these valiant bands of underappreciated volunteers (or employees) worked tirelessly to make rpms for 2006 for the latest stuff, but if you want a 2005 rpm it's everyone for themselves? Hmmm.

 

That -v tip sounds a good one, although I guess if digikam's new version is only just out then it won't ever be available for 2006 either, do I have to wait to install Mandriva 2007 if I don't want to install digikam from source?? Cos according to the digikam page "But it can happen that you run into all kinds of problems related to compiling." :(

 

As for the Kate bugs, it seems that upgrading Kate requires upgrading KDE, and that sounds far trickier- I'd hate to have to compile the whole KDE and expect anything to still work afterwards...

[Crashdamage]

neddie wrote:

 

is it then true that new versions of programs will never be available via easy-urpmi for 2005LE?

Possibly, but probably not. No big deal, you can still update stuff, as I already discribed. You can load 2006 be able to urpmi the latest and greatest, but no matter whether you use Suse, Mandriva - whatever - some stuff is always gonna be an old version as soon as a distro's released. And sometimes the latest isn't the greatest anyway.

 

according to the digikam page "But it can happen that you run into all kinds of problems related to compiling."

You won't know 'til you try it. Might go smooth. Don't forget about Checkinstall.

 

upgrading Kate requires upgrading KDE

Can't help you there. I don't even have Kate or KDE installed.

[neddie]

Interesting. This is shattering a few of my perceptions of coolness.

When I first got my Mandriva, and before I hooked it up to the internet, I thought installing software was a bit of a pain - search for the rpm, try to install it, find out it needs a dependency, go search for that one, etc etc etc. I also tried to compile a couple of apps, without any success - a bit disappointing. Then I found out about urpmi and it was like opening my eyes into a new world of coolness - this wasn't just as good, this was loads better than I expected! A great search tool, automatically find the dependencies, cross-matching repositories, eveything already compiled and packaged and trouble-free.

 

Now I just tried to update inkscape and digikam, and it's interesting to see what happened. Inkscape is not on my DVD, and not in the repositories (or at least not on mine) so I got it originally from inkscape.org - so I look again, there's a new version out, I download it, I install it, super. But hang on, this isn't using urpmi, it's not using a Mandriva rpm, it's not from my wonderful one-stop-shop single-point of entry repository system (which I've been bragging about, of course), this is how it used to be done! Surely digikam will come up trumps then? Well there's no official 2005 rpm for the new version, and judging by the comments above there never will be one. Similarly not for 2006, so I'd have to wait for 2007 to come out and hope that that rpm still worked on my 2005 system. Or upgrade the whole OS of course, but then if someone with a non-Mandriva system told me they had to reinstall their 6-month-old OS just to install the new version of a graphics tool, I'd laugh at them.

 

So where do I go? Back to digikam.org (back to the host of independent websites rather than the marvellous central tool) and download the source to compile it. Except the compilation requires the KDE headers, which I don't seem to have got, and if I try to install libkdecore4-devel (which I think is right?), it wants to download a whopping 120MB of stuff and that's even before the compile problems

 

Isn't there somewhere a public-spirited band of rpm-makers compiling and packaging these popular apps for 2005 (and 2006)? Am I the only 2005 user who wants the new digikam, and the bug fixes for Kate? Or am I the only 2005 user left? :unsure:

[Crashdamage]

Recent versions of Inscape and Digikam are available:

 

Inkscape 0.42 for 10.2 (2005LE):

http://rpms.mandrivaclub.com/rpms/mandriva...02mdk.i586.html

Inkscape 0.43 for 2006 (Cooker package, use at your own risk, try with '--test'' first):

http://rpms.mandrivaclub.com/rpms/mandriva...-2mdk.i586.html

 

Digikam 0.8.0 for 2006 (try with '--test' first):

http://rpms.mandrivaclub.com/rpms/mandriva...60mdk.i586.html

Digikam 0.8.1 (Cooker - careful!):

http://rpms.mandrivaclub.com/rpms/mandriva...-1mdk.i586.html

 

There's more packages available elsewhere, I'm sure. If you're not a Club member, check Seer of Souls or Thac's rpms. I realize the packages above aren't 'official 10.2' rpms, but maybe you can still urpmi these packages in. Just download the rpms and try it with 'urpmi -v --test'. Urpmi will still try to satisfy dependencies using the sources you have set up. If it can't, (very likely, in this particular case) you may need to setup 2006 and/or Cooker depositories temporarily if 'urpmi -v --test' replies that you need a lot of stuff from those depositories, (it probably will) otherwise it's simpler to just get what you need manually. But be sure to disable them again once you do the installs of Digikam and Inkscape. Using 'non-native' depositories carries a risk of course, but the '--test' switch **should** keep you out of trouble. It has for me so far.

 

At least with Linux you CAN do a test install - in Windoze, you just have to install new software and see what else it breaks when it overwrites those older DLLs with new versions.

 

I really don't understand your complaint though. Software installation in Linux is so simple. Almost anything you need is just 'urpmi <packagename>' or 'apt-get <ackagename>' away. Even cheating a little installing packages from other versions, etc. is usually pretty easy. It happens you picked a particularly tough upgrade with Digikam. And anyway, do you really expect Mandriva or anyone else to keep re-compiling the latest stuff for your earlier system? You saw for yourself that it sometimes is a pretty tall order, with lots of other stuff needing upgrades to make it work (especially anything KDE-dependent like Digikam). Mandriva (or any distro) has got their hands full getting thousand of apps to play nice together for the next release.

 

That's OK with me - I can take care of the rest myself. Like I said before, I upgrade stuff as I need to. That's why my sig says 'Modified Mandriva 10.1' and will for a long time. I only reinstall the OS about every 3 years. The only way to get 'one-stop shopping' is to go to CompUSA and load up your credit card with Windoze software - and hope for the best. Then pay again when the new versions of what you just bought are released. And again. And again.

[scarecrow]

MCNL has currently Digikam 0.8.0 and a few other things available.

http://www.mandrivaclub.nl/sources/official/2006/i586/

[solarian]

Installing KDE 3.4.2 from Thac is dead easy, just have to remove the previous KDE installation first.

I too am not updating to MDV2006, because 2005LE is so stable, besides 2006 has all those xorg issues...

[neddie]

You're right, I want the moon on a stick

 

do you really expect Mandriva or anyone else to keep re-compiling the latest stuff for your earlier system?

Maybe it's unreasonable of me, but yes I do expect that someone, somewhere has done this already. And if there was a way to share the results, then it only takes one person to compile and package, and then the whole world can have for example digikam 0.8 for Mandriva 2005 with just a few clicks from the 'install software' gui. It sounds like a lot of work but it only has to be done once per application release per distribution and then put up on some mirror somewhere.

 

There's only a couple of things stopping me from immediately contributing to this project - I've never compiled a KDE application and have never built an rpm :P and I don't have a rack of machines on which to test various combinations of software...

 

Seer of Souls sounds like the kind of thing I was thinking of, although I can't find mentions of 2005 rpms there and can't find them on pbone.net either. Thac seems by his own admission to deal more with "bleeding-edge" stuff and warns of possible (or probable) breakages - and judging by some of the forum comments about his work from irate ranters maybe this volunteer effort is a bit more of a thankless task than I'd imagined... maybe the combinations of dependencies and permutations of interacting software make it a lot harder to make these rpms play nicely everywhere than I thought.

 

I know I shouldn't compare Mandriva with other, non-Free operating systems, but in those cases once a new application comes out, it's out, and you can get it right away not wait till 2007. I guess the rate of development here and the interconnectedness of the system makes it trickier to get it these apps to work everywhere. I just think we've got a great software distribution and installation tool, and if there was a repository of new apps for old systems it would work like a dream

 

I'll try those 2006 rpms, I didn't know they were available. Thanks for the tip!

[daniewicz]

I enjoyed reading your latest post neddie, and I am sympathetic to much of what you said. I am a 2005 user and plan to stay on 2005 for several years. There will come a time when new software that I want will not be available in rpm form for my rapidly aging OS. This will force me to tinker with non-official rpms as discussed by Crashdamage, thereby forcing me to lose my linux newb status :P . Now this is a good thing, but it will require time and effort some folks may not want to invest.

 

The rapid aging of my OS is a consequence of the yearly upgrade cycle, where a new version of Mandriva is generated each year. Is this really necessary? Can someone out there provide me with some historical perspective? Why not a two year cycle?

Edited February 1, 2006 by daniewicz

[neddie]

Well I guess there's always Debian, that was stable for several years before Sarge came out :) but then that might be overdoing it. I wonder how Ubuntu users will get on with their 6-month cycle :/