Is Linus starting something...?

[tyme]

I disagree completely. I think KDE's kontrol center is -far- too complex. So many options within options within options. GNOME keeps things simple, it presents a unified front end to the user and doesn't give them half a million options that you have to dig through to find what you want.

[solarian]

:P

 

[solarian]

Maybe it's too complex for you!

And I really like what you described about KDE. I like many options so I can make it suit my needs best. And I don't have to dig through config files like I'd have to in Gnome.

[arctic]

I agree with tyme. KDE has a bit too much stuffed into Kcontrol and the organisation of apps is less than optimal imho. Rearraning most options would help a lot. At least that's my view.

 

I think KDE has too many options for newbies. If you are a poweruser, things will be different, of course. Then you won't have problems with one or the other desktop. Add some extra-apps to Gnome like gtweakui and you usually don't have to hack the config files. And after all... it is simply a matter of tastes and custom behaviour. I once was a die-hard KDE fan but switched to Gnome as KDE prevented me from working (I always explored the many, many options and forgot about my work). In Gnome, I am not so tempted to change things over and over again. But that's just my personal "problem". ;)

[aRTee]

First of all, why would Linus just be another guy and have no clue about DE's?

He's been using Linux wm's/de's longer than most of us.

 

Second, read all the threads, there was more at the OSDL site.

 

Third, the point that Linus tried to make is that the GNOME HIG Nazi's (not the non-HIG-nazi regular GNOME developers) block off the discussion about missing features every time.

His point is not that one should put any and all features into the system that one can come up with, but that one should be open to the idea of adding features.

 

Fourth, Linus did not complain about this on a public forum, he complained to the GNOME developers on an email list to motivate them to improve on what he sees an aspect to be improved.

 

Linus argues that by dropping features, GNOME becomes less relevant, and I can't but agree there. Why do you think I advice everyone to use KDE, directly and through my site?

I once was a GNOME user, until they took out a feature that I wanted/was used to/needed. This was at the sawfish => metacity change.

I asked for help on a forum, where the first reply was: use KDE, just 4 clicks and you'll have what you want. I didn't want to change my DE, read my learninglinux story if you want to understand my mentality, just fix GNOME to do what I wanted. So I followed the advice of fellow GNOMErs and exchanged metacity with sawfish. Since GNOME was no longer made with sawfish in mind, some things just didn't work.

 

This is just one example, but in general, it's very bad to drop a feature.

 

Then there's these decisions all the time to do things 'the right HIG way', and no other way - whereas the G in HIG is short for GUIDELINES, not LAW OF NATURE.

Strict adherence to the HIG is the reason for Linus to use the term 'HIG-nazi'. Immature? Maybe. But we all know the net doesn't allow for subtlety and proper communication, nor does Linus care about such, so whatever. To me it's beside the point.

 

Now, the thing is that some GNOME developers have quit (read slashdot for instance), lots of people just got fed up. Once you start losing developers, you know something is wrong. Then there was this recent split off by some guys who do like GNOME, better than KDE or any other DE/WM, but want more features.

Now, that means that again there is a loss of momentum.

 

So, Linus has a point, and from the responses of GNOME developers, it seems that the strict HIG followers are not even the top developers. It's just that they shout the loudest.

One of the funniest replies was the story that the guy who wrote the HIG 'complained' that people quoted from his work back to him without knowing he wrote that, telling that he didn't get it....

 

What I don't get is why KDE feature richness is an issue. As long as your defaults are okay, novice users will not even need to change anything. Once you get to the point that you want a detail differently, I agree the KDE CC can be less than obvious, but the built-in help works very well.

Contrast that to GNOME where others tell me how to work, and tell me that if I don't like it, I'm working in the wrong way, instead of admitting that GNOME lacks what I _need_ (yes, I can determine what I _need_ in terms of a DE/WM/GUI, even though the word 'need' is exaggerated - heck, I don't even _need_ a computer at all, could probably do without Linux, etc...).

 

And this is also the point that Linus made: GNOME took away features, they don't put in useful things (in this case the discussion started with the printer interface looks, options and info) out of fear it might not be in line with the HIG bible, and because 'it makes things more complex'.

Linus' point was: you don't know what people may want/need, so best put things in, instead of leaving out useful features. And you don't really know what is useful and what is not.

GNOME people tend to say: it's too complex, if you can leave it out, leave it out.

But I liked Linus' comment that the subset of all majorities is the empty set.

Basically, you will have no satisfied users at all with all the minimalism. Of course it's not so extreme, GNOME is still a very usable DE, it's not like they dropped the things that make it usable, they just drop and fail to include things that make it nice to use.

Oh and by the way, most people on the GNOME camp talking about usability and such are also just desktop users, very very few people actually have more skills in that area than Linus. So why the ad hominem is beyond me (this is for those who say that Linus is just a kernel hacker, not a HIG buff. Yeah, well, so what. He's dead right and thought things over, you know...)

 

It's better to get it half right the first time, get feedback and improve, than to get it all wrong.

In development, KDE has the mentality to add things, see how it works and if people like it, polish it etc.

The KDE CC has been improved quite a bit, and KDE is a very versatile DE/WM. And this is the correct thing to do - the features of KDE are not the issue, the issue with KDE is the CC. So that should be improved.

 

What I like about GNOME is that it's really distinct, it doesn't try to follow any other DE (Win) or whatever, but I think things could be taken so much further if they would try out more.

[arctic]

Quite well said, aRTee. I agree with many of your points. One thing I would say however is:

GNOME people tend to say: it's too complex, if you can leave it out, leave it out.

While Gnome-devs surely tend to make things over-simplistic, their user base does not always want to follow this path. I wonder why the Gnome-devs don't simply keep it all simple and easy as it was in Gnome2.10 BUT add one extra button for most of their apps: advanced options. There you could add all you need as a poweruser but not as a normal user, like in the printing dialogue.

The same button I'd like to see in Kcontrol. Reduced and rearranged options in Kcontrol on first sight and an "advanced options" button for those who want/need to tweak more things. That is an easy solution but somehow, it seems as if developers don't want to see that solution.

[aRTee]

Well, I guess I should have written "Some GNOME people" because from the reactions of Havoc for instance, I gather that it's not necessarily a general thing, but somehow the argument 'HIG says ...' always wins...

 

And your advanced button idea is something that could really improve things, so you may want to push the idea.

I noticed that in KDE CC it shows up at some points, but not in a consistent way and not everywhere, so as stated, lots of room for improvement for the organisation of options there too.

[arctic]

Just in case someone is interested in the new Gnome-print dialogue, the reason for the "clash". It is animated, so take a close look. Doesn't look that bad, though...

http://www.easysw.com/~mike/ui/pddemo.html

[dexter11]

requires FLTK

I dont think it's a GNOME dialog.

[arctic]

Who knows, mabye they want to integrate FLK into Gnome? At least this one was created by some Gnome-developers...

[Gowator]

First of all, why would Linus just be another guy and have no clue about DE's?

He's been using Linux wm's/de's longer than most of us.

Erm yep but for most of the time without a GUI. Even taking that into account most of the life of Linux the GUI has 'sucked' from a HID point of view.

Second, read all the threads, there was more at the OSDL site.

agreed

 

Third, the point that Linus tried to make is that the GNOME HIG Nazi's (not the non-HIG-nazi regular GNOME developers) block off the discussion about missing features every time.

His point is not that one should put any and all features into the system that one can come up with, but that one should be open to the idea of adding features.

This is the major point for me.

He is obviously dealing with the kind of "we know best" mentaility that work through controling the discussion groups etc. If as seems to be the case these people have squirmed into the position and are now dominating Gnome development then either the gnome team sort it out and fork or they become a pariah and people like Linus who have been using the OpenSource collabarative method of development will just stop trying to deal with them.

Linus argues that by dropping features, GNOME becomes less relevant, and I can't but agree there.

It would depend on your position, as a user that feature might not impact you so becomes irrelevant but as a developer you have to think what users might need/want. Its like having a bnad DJ who refuses to play the music that the people at a wedding want... hge might nor like the music they choose but that is not his job!

This is just one example, but in general, it's very bad to drop a feature.

Agreed ...

Then there's these decisions all the time to do things 'the right HIG way', and no other way - whereas the G in HIG is short for GUIDELINES, not LAW OF NATURE.

Strict adherence to the HIG is the reason for Linus to use the term 'HIG-nazi'. Immature? Maybe. But we all know the net doesn't allow for subtlety and proper communication, nor does Linus care about such, so whatever. To me it's beside the point.

I think if he has been trying to get the idea across to a controlling and domineering minority who block all discussion then he's entitled to sound off. This reads to me like "I have tried to convince you to be more open and just discuss other ideas but you refuse while claiming to want to listen to more ideas " It sounds like he is tired by their dogma and doesn't want to waste any more of his valuable time arguing with them over this. If he beleives they are being run by a minority dictatorship and new ideas are blocked then he is correct to refer users elsewhere.

 

Now, the thing is that some GNOME developers have quit (read slashdot for instance), lots of people just got fed up. Once you start losing developers, you know something is wrong. Then there was this recent split off by some guys who do like GNOME, better than KDE or any other DE/WM, but want more features.

Now, that means that again there is a loss of momentum.

It also shows that they got tired of wasting their efforts while the development is controlled by a closed bunch of know it alls.

 

So, Linus has a point, and from the responses of GNOME developers, it seems that the strict HIG followers are not even the top developers. It's just that they shout the loudest.

Perhaps... I think they are also the mods on the forums and are blocking all other discussion except in the direction they want.

 

The KDE CC has been improved quite a bit, and KDE is a very versatile DE/WM. And this is the correct thing to do - the features of KDE are not the issue, the issue with KDE is the CC. So that should be improved.

 

True but its much easier to put things in and then simplify them than leave them out until they are ready. One way gets user feedback ... the other way doesn't care about the user feedback and hence the user.

 

I disagree completely. I think KDE's kontrol center is -far- too complex. So many options within options within options. GNOME keeps things simple, it presents a unified front end to the user and doesn't give them half a million options that you have to dig through to find what you want.

 

Is the KDE CC complex ?

I dunno ... Do I need a %translucency for my panel? probably not but neither do I need a DM or even a WM or come to that a GUI. I have them because they are fun, convenient, pretty ....

If I want to just change theme then right click and 'configure desktop' takes me there with just 5 simple options. If I dig deeper they get more complex but no-one is holding a gun to my head and simply installing a theme will do everything I might want to change if I prefer.

 

Gnome can be unified as much as it wants but other than 'official' gnome apps noone is going to follow them. HIG is just crap, its like telling us all we all have the same favorite color because quasi-scientific tests prove it (psychology is all pseudo science) ... and it reminds me of HR depts who do handwriting analysis at job interviews ...

As far as I am concerned handwriting analysis is about as relevant as star sign. The same goes for HIG. The whole idea of HIG for me is Orwellian. A group of psychologist telling ME how I want to work? What is best for ME...

 

So back to apps...

If I was a developer I wouldn't consider making a app Gnome compatible indeed I would make it as incompatible as possible just to make sure they don't use it and bend it to their idea of how it should work. Developers are leaving Gnome in droves and in the next year we will hopefully see a slow death of Gnome as developers refuse to write apps for it. Then we can go back to Gnome 1 and restart Gnome 2 without the HIG nazi's.

 

To my mind a DM/WM is just a DM/WM. The apps are what makes an OS and if Gnome wants to start telling developers how to write their apps then it is time for Gnome to die like an old car that is too much work to keep roadworthy.

 

What is needed in a DM? Almost nothing. Therefore in a office environment all that is needed is an Icon for OO, one for Evolution and one for Firefox. Any config tools at all are unneccessary because a user shouldn't be playing with things like changing the wallpaper, screensaver etc. and all the config will be standardised at a coprorate level ?

 

I worked for a company with a compulsary screen saver every 2 hours for 15 minutes.

If you were on the phone to a supplier and giving them information you had to apologise and tell them you would ring back in 15 minutes because your computer was locked. Urgent work? nope nothing is more urgent than your 15 minute break... people dying on a oil rig or an explosion in a chemical factory (twice) ... aaaaaaahh must take 15 mins compulsary break! Had they been able to force you to do streching exersizes as demonstrated in the screen saver they would have dsone that too.

 

This is the way the HIG nazi's are going and it is not a path I like.

[dexter11]

Who knows, mabye they want to integrate FLK into Gnome? At least this one was  created by some Gnome-developers...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

fltk is a widget set like gtk (which GNOME uses). Maybe that GNOME developer is using fltk for practicing or I don't know but IMO it's very unlikely it will be in GNOME as it is.