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What does Linux want to be?


pbpersson
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Every so often I get on here and post something like this. Usually it is a topic like "What is the future of Linux" or "Why can't Linux be more like Windows?" However, let us approach this from a different point of view - What is the point of Linux?

 

Now....let's say I was buying a car. I go into the dealership, I find a car that looks nice, and I drive it off the lot - simple. Sure, someone else decided for me how the dashboard is laid out, what color the body is....but, whatever - I just want something that will get me where I'm going.

 

If cars were designed like Linux is designed, some people would suggest that going into the showroom and looking at a bare chassis with an engine sitting on it would be a good thing. They say that in an ideal world you should choose the seats, dashboard, and body to be what YOU want them to be. Look, I just want something that will work.

 

So, they give me KDE in Mandrake 10.1 which is supposed to work. However, I can't surf on half the web sites because I don't have the correct software hooked up to the correct browsers, and the music players don't work, and the video players don't work. I think the first music player in the KDE list just crashed, the second one the music sounded all muffled, the third one had very limited functionality.... Someone said to use XMMS or something like that. I think it should be the first on the list if it is the best. The best music player should be called AA - Best music player, the best video player should be called AA - Best Video Player, etc. That way the first impressions a Linux explorer has won't be negative ones.

 

Now, when it comes to how the OS works, I expect it to find all my hardware, surf all the web sites, and it should just work. If I want to use my mouse left-handed then I should be able to click "left-handed" in the mouse control panel and it should do it.

 

I get on here and I'm told that I should KNOW how things work and you type xmode -xvs ./werer/were/wetterweerewr/ee*^%#$ and then maybe it will work.

 

So....is using Linux like driving a car where you need to be a car mechanic to use it? That is the impression I get after looking at Linux for years - you need to be constantly under the hood "teaking" and re-building things to keep it running.

 

Is that what Linux wants to be? Is that the goal? It is supposed to be an OS for people who like to tinker inside the OS? I was hoping it was like a Jeep - I just get in and drive and it will work for me without a great deal of work. This is sort of like Windows has been for me. Sure, I didn't design the dash board or the steering wheel or the seats but it gets me from point A to point B and I don't need to be a programmer to use it.

 

Oh....and how is the new Mandriva 2006 for those of us who want an OS that will just work? I just read a review that said if you don't want to know the inner workings of the OS and how everything is programmed don't bother trying to install it because it is too difficult. :unsure:

 

I'm asking this because quite often I have heard that Linux would like to be the desktop OS for the masses and I'm wondering if that is still the goal.

 

 

Phil

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Linux wants to be Linux, plain and simple. The real question is, what do you want linux to be?

 

Perhaps when you know that you can get help finding the distribution that fits it.

Edited by tyme
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Linux wants to be Linux, plain and simple.  The real question is, what do you want linux to be?

 

Perhaps when you know that you can get help finding the distribution that fits it.

 

Actually, I have some rather unrealistic expectations for Linux.

 

First of all, I want it to include all the "stuff" I need for what I am doing. On a Windows machine this is easier - if I go to a web site that needs Shockwave or Quicktime or Javascript then it just downloads it and installs it on my Windows machine. These web sites don't work with Linux - if you say "give me what I need to make it work" the entire thing crashes when it finds you are on Linux - it's not designed to handle it.

 

Linux can't include all these things out of the box reportedly because of some licensing nonsense.

 

I joined the Mandrake Club so I could download the "official PowerPack" version thinking I would finally have a full-featured version of Linux but that was a disappointment as well. For instance, out of the box the web browser was Konqueror which was a joke - there are several things I could not get to work with it. Then I installed Mozilla because it is so "standard" and everything should work with it but then I was supposed to somehow "know" that I should install MOZPlugger so it would work with web sites.....I thought it was DESIGNED to work with web sites??? I don't think I ever did get Quicktime movies to work on Mandrake - most of this work I did last year.

 

Now I am discovering that in order to use Mandrake 10.1 with my left hand I need to run XModMap but before I can run that I need to run XEV which is embedded in something called X11R6-contrib which I need to get through URPMI but then I get curl errors. I am now updating my FTP URPMI sites to fix that little issue.

 

So....I guess what I want is a distribution where I can install it and just do my work without spending days or weeks trying to get everything working on the machine. Is there a distro like that? Is Mandrake the wrong one? Please don't recommend Lindows because I heard everything runs under root and that's just plain stupid.

 

 

 

Phil

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When I read threads like this, it takes me back a few years. I remember when "browsing" the internet was a novel thing that required something called Netscape. Microsoft came late on the game, and offered a non-functional piece of sofware that did not even compare to the Netscape software that I had to add to my computer.

 

Today, after copying anything it could, Microsoft at least has a browser that sort of works. That is, it worked until most of the internet began to follow an internet standard. Why microsoft fails to follow a standard with their browser is questionable until one looks at the big picture. You see, Open Standards do not help Microsoft in their long term business objectives. So they remain out of compliance.

 

Your car analogy does not go far enough. The Microsoft car isn't just the color of the dashboard and the paint job. Microsoft wants to tell you when and where to drive their car and if you want to change anything on it, you'll have to buy a new model. Your current model will stop working. You see, you pay for their car and they grant you permission to do what they want you to do. Doesn't that seem just a little odd? :lol:

 

Many things about linux are just plain irritating. I agree that it should work just "out of the box". I work for small companies and individuals, and I cannot tell you that Windows is working "out of the box" either. Whether Dell or any other comercial lable, these issues get bounced in the blame game between the os and the hardware. All marketing aside, your picture of MS is just inaccurate. But then your picture of linux is also slanted. I have ran numerous linuces on at least a dozen hardware combinations. I can't say that the issues are all resolved. But I also can't say that for Windows. At least with linux, I can find a correct fix for any problem. With Windows, one must dig thru numerous white pages and articles on a subject before you find the "it's a bug" line!

 

Sorry you have so much trouble with your computers. I hope you have better days.

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so pbpersson, it's that time again? :D

 

I think you are expecting too much. You get what you pay for, and linux isn't ready for the 'Big Show'.

 

I rememer my first try. Mandrake 7.2. Installed fine, nothing worked>researched and found my hardware was too new....so I removed it. Tried again with MAndrake 8.1 and everything could work if I was willing to make it work. I did, and I did it knowing what I said above. You get what you pay for, and linux isn't ready for the 'Big Show'. That is the attitude I have always held towards Linux and it gets me through the hard times it gives me.

 

This is not 'ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country'....it's an OS, it should work. If it doesn't, move on to the next, find a diff distro, or continue in win. Whatever....

Edited by bvc
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I can understand that some people might be disappointed when things do not work out of the box in Linux. Somehow they were expecting magic. But magic is not there. Not in Linux, not in Mac, not in Windows. Your primary "complain" is that flash, java and quicktime and maybe mpegs don't work out of the box.

 

Well, did they work immediately in Windows? They do not (at least not on my computers). I still had to go to broken websites and try to find out where to download java, flash, quitcktime, mpeg, wmv, wma, avi and other codecs. And after installing them, many things still didn't work. The difference in Linux is that you CAN fix this yourself. In Windows it is hardly possible ( you need to wait for a patch that fixes the patch that should have fixed your problems).

 

Why you always get the impression that people tinker with Linux is because of this. In Linux, you can tinker with things and fix them yourself (and this is what all those people do), while in Windows, you yawn and forget about it sooner or later if it doesn't work immediately.

 

Oh, and you need to keep in mind that different users have different needs. For me, everything I needed worked out of the box and adding some website support here and there did take me less than five minutes. So it all depends on your personal needs and wishes. It's just like cars. Some need a pick-up, some a limousine and others still a mini-van. ;)

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> Now I am discovering that in order to use Mandrake 10.1 with my left hand I need to run XModMap but

 

I don't understand why, with KDE you just use the mouse configuration panel for KDE "Configure your Desktop" under the peripherals. Are you using some other window manager?

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It's just like cars. Some need a pick-up, some a limousine and others still a mini-van. ;)

need a limousine? :lol2:

 

 

> Now I am discovering that in order to use Mandrake 10.1 with my left hand I need to run XModMap but

 

I don't understand why, with KDE you just use the mouse configuration panel for KDE "Configure your Desktop" under the peripherals.  Are you using some other window manager?

https://mandrivausers.org/index.php?showtopic=29170

http://www.mozillaquest.com/Linux_News04/M...se_Story01.html

Edited by bvc
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> Now I am discovering that in order to use Mandrake 10.1 with my left hand I need to run XModMap but

 

I don't understand why, with KDE you just use the mouse configuration panel for KDE "Configure your Desktop" under the peripherals.  Are you using some other window manager?

 

That is broken in the 10.1 version. There are even web sites that tell people not to use 10.1 if they are lefties but with someone's help I was able to get it working.

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It's just like cars. Some need a pick-up, some a limousine and others still a mini-van. ;)

need a limousine? :lol2:

Errm... okay... need cars? Some people think they need limousines. Some people think they need cars, some people think they need computers. :cheesy:
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I can understand that some people might be disappointed when things do not work out of the box in Linux. Somehow they were expecting magic. But magic is not there. Not in Linux, not in Mac, not in Windows. Your primary "complain" is that flash, java and quicktime and maybe mpegs don't work out of the box.

 

Well, did they work immediately in Windows?

 

It is my impression that everything is easier in Windows. For instance, I go to a web site and it says I need flash and click here to download it - done! I go to a web site and it says I need Adobe Acrobat, click here to download it - done!

 

I go to a web site using Linux and it says I need something and click here to get it and CRASH! So.....now I am scratching my head. What type of file do I need, what software usually reads it, and how do I load it for Linux? Then I need to go out to the web and read articles, then I need to search the URPMI stuff to see what it is called in Linux.....several times for each file type.

 

Even with all that I think I was not able to get all the quicktime stuff working.....and then someone suggested I use a Windows emulator in Linux. That's just silly. But I digress.....

 

Anyway, here is another fine example - last year I installed a scanner on my Linux machine. Now, in Windows when you install a scanner you go to the start menu and there is a section called "HP Scanning Software" or something useful like that. No such luck in Linux. Again, the user is totally left out in the cold with no clue. I had to spend hours on the web doing research to discover that the Linux scanning software was called SANE but that was worthless information because that is just the engine - the KDE frontend is called KOOKA and somehow I was just supposed to automatically know that.

 

Now....once you know all the funny names for all the funny things in Linuc you MIGHT be productive. I wouldn't know, I have been learning this gradually for years and I'm still amazed at the steepness of the learning curve here. But when I start complaining bitterly about this I'm reminded that my CD burning software in Windows is called Nero and why do I so readily accept the logic of that strange name? :unsure: Maybe it's because it said NERO in big letters on the box so I had some clue as to what it was called.

 

Anyway, my experiences with Linux have given me the impression - rather deserved or not - that it still has a long journey ahead of it if the goal is for Linux to be the desktop of the 21st century. Even after I had downloaded all the Quicktime, Flash, Java, and Mplayer stuff I could get my hands on, it still would not work with about twenty percent of the web sites I use and I could not open multimedia attachments from friends. Linux just told me it had no idea what they were. I had to view the emails on Windows in order for them to work.

 

If I have a Linux machine here fully configured with all the trimmings and I must go to my Windows machine to see some web sites and read some emails then I think something is terribly wrong - after spending weeks fighting with Linux to get it working as well as a Windows machine does after one day of setup.

 

I'm just wondering if Mandrake is still the closest distro when it comes to being as "user-friendly" as Windows is.

 

 

 

Phil

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I'm just wondering if Mandrake is still the closest distro when it comes to being as "user-friendly" as Windows is.

 

Phil

I'd say it is still the closest. The code that would be required for some of the things you mention could easily be added by a distro (....i.e..popups...install missing software etc..) Yes, this can easily be done for a user that doesn't have root privy's. In this day of Huge Storage when an app is installed by a user they should get a popup that ask if they want to install it to their $HOME DIR, not a popup that ask for the root password :rolleyes:

 

There was a time, you had to learn windows. As you pointed out Nero stuck in your head from the box you paid for ;) Linux has it on their cd's. They are not funny names, their just already there for you to find. But you had to find out about Nero, just the same.

 

Linux Web Browser media integration does stink. It is hard to believe we still can't get that right. Sad really.

Edited by bvc
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Now....once you know all the funny names for all the funny things in Linuc you MIGHT be productive.
I think this is a general problem on any operating system. You always have to hear about an application before you start to use it. Someone new to digital printing and layout-design will have to find out first that there is Photoshop, InDesign, Quark, Freehand, Dreamweaver, Corel and other programs before dumping his MSpaint. Same persons have to search for antivirus software and firewall software before being able to use them. It is always a learning process and most people learned everything the Windows way for some ten to 15 years. Now compare that to the time you have spent in Linux... You will see that you learned more about one operating system in a rather short time than about Windows in a very long time.

 

Think positive. ;)

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No wonder you were having problems with your scanner. The front end for SANE is not, repeat not, kooka.

It is XSANE and if you had just looked in Menu.......Multimedia.........Graphics you would have found it. If you had taken notice during the packages selections shown during the install process and read the descriptions of the packages you could not have missed the Xsane package.

Kooka is the cd burner program.

 

For someone who claims to have used Linux for some while now, you do not seem to know very much about it. Considering that it is so easy to upgrade to Mandriva2005-LE it is surprising you have not done so.

 

You totally ignore the fact that the programs such as flash and so on are written by their manufacturers specifically for Windows and/or Mac and the only reason some off them can be made to work in Linux is thanks to Linux programmers with no thanks or help from the originators.

 

I think bvc has twigged to what is happening with this original poster.

 

The naming thing is a reality. With literally 10s if not 100s of thousands of software packages in the world and rapidly increasing, every product needs its own name so that the name cannot be claimed to used by someone else. While similar and descriptive names would probably have been ok to the linux world, The proprietry world would have thrown lawsuits here there and everywhere. These same scumbags are even suing people in Australia to obtain names that have been used for up to 20yrs in Australia, yet the American corporation has only been using it for a few years and is planning to open up in Australia. That is how bad the naming business is in the Western world (as the US wants it).

The Linux world has no option but to devise original names that are unlikely to be useable by the proprietry world. Look what Micro$oft has done over the word windows.

 

Since you find Linux so ho hum, I really and truly suggest you retire to your "works out of the box Windows ???" and leave the rest of us get on with using our far superior, most secure, most stable, most reliable, most user friendly of all OSs.

 

John.

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Think of it this way. If you had of used Linux first, and gotten used to XSANE for scanning, etc, etc, etc, then when you ran Windows, you'd be wondering where XSANE has gone in Windows?

 

And you'd be writing a post in the Windows forums saying why it isn't like Linux, etc, etc, etc.

 

I've used 10.0 Official, 10.1 Official, LE2005 and now 2006 and never experienced any crashing, any problems getting video or music to run. The apps launched when I opened the file, and played no problem.

 

I'd personally think you have a borked installation due to media problems, and/or something else. I've had one borked installation in the many that I've done, and now it's fine.

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