Mandrakesoft follows RedHat - Announces EOL Policy

[ral]

First RedHat, and now Mandrake... altough Mandrake terms are better:

 

http://www.pclinuxonline.com/modules.php?n...rticle&sid=4404

 

"With the release of Mandrake Linux 9.1, we will put in place a cycle that customers can easily anticipate. MandrakeSoft will provide 12 months of "desktop" support for distributions, and 18 months of "base" support for distributions. This means that applications such as window managers, desktop environments, browsers, etc. will have a 12 month support life, while applications such as the kernel, Apache, and other "base" components will have a support life of 18 months. At certain times, MandrakeSoft may choose to extend support for certain versions of Mandrake Linux.

 

Finally, specialized "server" products, will have a full life support of no less than 24 months."

 

RedHat recently announced a 12 month EOL for their consumer products, except for the $800+ a year Advance Server (5 years) and their upcoming Workstation (price unknown).

 

I understand the need for an EOL, but I feel that One year is too short. For us in the community, it is probably fine, but for business use a bit too short.

 

I do understand why RH and MS have to do this. Expecially since they will each release 2-3 versions per year.

 

I would have liked it better though if if they both did somethign like this:

 

RH 7.0 - Development Release - 1 year

RH 7.1 - Development Release - 1 year

RH 7.2 - Development Release - 1 year

RH 7.3 - Stable Release - 3 years

 

ML 8.0 - Development Release - 1 year/18 mos.

ML 8.1 - Development Release - 1 year/18 mos.

ML 8.2 - Stable Release - 3 years/3 years

 

They could even drop support for the development releases as soon as the newer version is out. But it would be good to have one that is supported a long time. Imagine having to upgrade 200 desktops every 12 mos/18 mos.... and that assumes that you installed the distro on its release date.

[mtweidmann]

I suppose it was a matter of time vefore they introduced an EOL. I don't suppse the 12/18 month support period is too much of a problem. For one thing a busines can just download the new (supported) edition like everyone else.

 

Also its not really fair to expect a longer period. MS realises a new verison of windows roughly every 2 years. Mandrake once every 6 months.

[ral]

"For one thing a busines can just download the new (supported) edition like everyone else."

 

Makes Windows Total Cost of Owenserhip argument a bit more valid. Well, at least the upgrades can be had for free.

[DragonMage]

Well, windows only gives patches either once in a blue moon (the SPs) or when the mob prods them with a pointy stick right after a huge crash because of an exploit (code red, nimda, sql slammer anyone?). Furthermore, microsoft support actually requires you to pay $35 per call even if the answer is "No, you cannot do that, your data is hosed, sorry."

 

Another thing, to upgrade your mandrake is a lot easier than to update windows. I can upgrade my mandrake in under 2 hours while in windows it takes 2 days. Patches for mandrake is easy, just use Mandrake Update (I never have problems with it, other than the sources doesn't have the updates yet). Patches for windows require you to do much more that even sysadmin loathes to install patches.

 

Tell me again which TCO is lower?

 

Anyway, I kind of expect this. I mean, who here still use 7.2? And there are two kinds of EOL in Mandrake, the desktop and the base. I don't think people using 8.1 needs to upgrade their desktop to kde 3.1 if 2.2 still works fine for them. It's the security patches that I worry about. There are still people using 8.x series just for firewall or something. Oh well at least there is a buffer of sometime.

 

Another thing, isn't installing 200 desktops in today's linux distro easier than installing windows? I think there is an option for "cloning" the mandrake via mandrake update robot or something isn't it? Besides, you don't do it at once, you do it in stages. First make one stable computer, then clone a few at a time, 10 if it is busy, 50 if it is not. You can do it in one night if you want to since all the software are available from the cloned computer.

[Guest JaseP]

Actually I think that one year is perfect for desktop support. By one year should have a good idea how to work stuff and also where to get support at places like this forum...

 

Same is true of the base support.

 

Besides, for corporate customers, they should pay for support...

 

The support with a distro should be for just that particular copy and not a corporate wide copy that is just installed over and over.

 

If a company hires an IT dept. who is Linux savvy, then one copy of a distro ought to do it. The IT person then can provide the support for the company. Then, the IT dept should do its part in helping spread Mandrake around... and geting more people involved.

[ral]

"Actually I think that one year is perfect for desktop support. By one year should have a good idea how to work stuff and also where to get support at places like this forum..." you have mor like 30-60 days installation support...

 

MS provides 3 years patch support (and have actually extended that for tings like Win2000). They have to force users to upgrade, becuase if it still meets our needs we wont go out and grab the latest (why do we need XP to type letters???). A lot of us still used patched versions of Win98 until now. Unfortunately a Win98 install won't survive 3 years... so you will reinstall 3-5 times during a 3 year period.

 

With Linux, I was imagining that desktops would not need maintenance for a 3+ year period.

 

Basically, now you will have to upgrade even if they are working well if you want the latest security fixes.

 

"Besides, for corporate customers, they should pay for support..."

 

True. RedHat is aware that you cannot ask a company like Google to upgrade its 4000 servers every year, so it will be providing 5 years support for its Red Hat Advance Server. They will release a workstation with a longer support cycle too. I think Mandrake will release similar versions...

 

However, with a $4000/5 year RHAS... Windows 2000 Profesional (which we get OEM for $140) is starting to look like a better proposition for simpler server needs.

 

How about the $170 RH8 Pro and the $199 Mandrake Prosuites. They are starting to look really costly if they only come with one year/18 months of support.

 

I guess for 12/18 months support, the price of the personal ($30-$40) is reasonable, but you had best get it as soon as released becuase the clock starts ticking than.

 

So if I install Mandrake 9 today for business use. I will have to upgrade it in 13 months or be left without security fixes. If I installed RH8 today, I would only have 8 months of security fixes.

 

So with Windows, frequent installs were necessary becuase of the programs inherent weaknesses. With some linux distro's now its going to be programed.

 

I don't know... for my home PC doing reisntall when 9.1 or 8.1 come out is fine... I like PC's. We just migrated a few desktops to Linux in the office ... and I told them that we would not have to do frequent reisntalls... Now those three newly installed 8.1's will have a service life only up to Sept. 2003.

 

I hope the upgrade option in the installation ISO's work... that's all I can say.

 

P.S. Mandrake 12/18 months is a lot better than RedHat's 12 mos.

[DragonMage]

You cannot compare RHAS with Win2k Pro. The closest thing Win2K have that is even remotely close to RHAS is Win2K Advanced Server. And let me tell you one thing.. Win2K Advanced Server is a bitch to install (pardon my language) and doubly hard to configure and make secure. A friend of mine who has a bootleg Win2KAS installed it in his computer just to play around and he got hacked and virused in a few months (during his final exams even, he has to reinstall his computer during the most stressful time of the semester, I laughed at him for trying something so unsecure as that) A simple software such as Norton Utilities doesn't install in win2kAS, they want you to install NU Corporate instead.

 

Anyway, if by a simple server means that win2k Pro quality, I think the personal edition or even GPL edition should suffice since it gives you more than Win2K Pro in terms of server capabilities.

 

Another thing, if you want non-company support, why don't you try debian instead? Yes it may be slow in terms of software releases, but at least it's stable and easy to upgrade. I think debian gives you a few years before it drops support on a debian version.

 

The thing is, Open Source development is very fast. As you can see in 2002 that you can get two or three stable releases of a software in a year. Since most of the Mandrake users want the newest thing, mandrakesoft is forced to keep up. As you can see the difference between Mandrake 9.0 and 8.0. Windows, on the other hand is pretty much stagnant in terms of development. The only big jump I have seen in windows in a few years back is the jump from 9x core to NT core. That's why windows can afford to give the so-called "support" for multiple years. Even then they already know they cannot survive on old software, hence the License 6 and Software Assurance thingie

 

Sorry to ramble.

 

PS: I don't think you can update 8.1 to the newest version that way, since they are so different internal wise (kernel, gcc, libraries, etc). Clean reinstall one and sync it with others. Or better yet, since you are using this for some kind of internet cafe, have you ever heard of Linux Terminal Server Project? Or Draktermserv? It may allieviate frequent installing.

[ral]

"Sorry to ramble." -- Your "ramblings" are always very imformative.

 

"Anyway, if by a simple server means that win2k Pro quality, I think the personal edition or even GPL edition should suffice since it gives you more than Win2K Pro in terms of server capabilities."

 

This is true. I only know a little bit about samba... and realize how many settings there were to play with when a ran "testparm". I don't mean to say that Win2k Pro is as good as RHAS or even RH GPL. The difference is how long I get support for the product.

 

RH GPL/PE/Pro - 1 year (this makes going back to Mandrake much more appealing now...18 months is a lot better than one year).

 

Win2K (by stroke of luck) - 5 years, but ordinarily 3 years.

 

Debian. I have used Mandrake and RedHat. I doubt they will be the last. :)

 

Having deployed Linux in many capacities (and by the way it is user friendly... you just have to read a bit... since I am a lawyer and have no background in computers and in fact got my first PC in 1999 I can attest to this... it just does not treat you like a idiot who can't understand anything more than clicking buttons and checkboxes):

 

Home: Desktop (Wolf-Linux 1.33 )

Private practice: Desktop (Who needs MSO 2000 :D )

Legal Office where I do voluteer work - Desktop use. (ditto)

Internet Cafe: - File & Print Server :). Use to be dual boot used for storage than I learned a little Samba :) :) :) Sorry, kind of proud of this one. Did it without a GUI... and it relegated a Win2K Pro license to a desktop.

 

(Only regret it still no Linux PC for rent to clients... only because our Internet Cafe software is not compatible with Linux. but we have tried lettting clients use both RH 8 and ML 9 for free... the only problems we enountered were clients not knowing to to mount a floppy...forgetting to unmount them and browsing to the floppy/CDROM to attach files... but those can easily be fix posting some instructions. If someone out there is willing to create a Linux client of the software found in www.ecafepro.com please let me know. Willing to pay for the job since we have 7 Win95 units that need urgent rplacement and that will cost us some... would love nto to have to configure the other PC's to use unencrypted passwords... anyway I am now rambling).

 

... the only machine I plan to upgrade every six months is the home PC. I guess I'll do that with the server too...if I did that with all... its like going back to Windows :(

 

I gotta do all the work myself. I know its just 6 PC's... but its more than just installing.

[ral]

http://news.zdnet.co.uk/story/0,,t278-s2129964,00.html

 

Looks like Red Hat Advanced Server and Advanced Workstation will have 5 years support.

 

Apparently, M$ also changed its policy to 5 year support, even having extended support for Windows NT.

 

I suppose Mandrake will soon announce the release of a commercial version with 5 year support.

 

I hope that Red Hat comes out with OEM versions. The way it looks RH will cost more than Windows 2000 Server (though still much less than the Windows 2000 Server)...

 

The problem really is the absence of a competing product with Windows 2000 Pro and Windows 2000 Server.

 

I guess that okay in Markets where Linux has already gained widespread acceptance. We are planning an entry to the Linux business here... and the EOL policies are making the orgininal plans appear too too viable.

 

Basically Windows 2000 Server with a 5 client access licences will cost about $700 (OEM). Red Hat 8.0 OEM/Pers/PRo costs $25-$170 but lifespan is the issue. The advance server should cost $500-600, but I don't think it comes with CAL's.

 

Back to the drawing boards.

[JeroenM]

it's good they now have a clear policy.

[ral]

A clear policy but one with shorter support cycles... and which makes MS Windows better looking.

 

Building a server with Promise RAID controllers. Latest drivers are for RH7.3. They expext RH8 drivers out in 2-3 months. I hope so because, RH7.3 EOL's in May 2003 so the RH8 drivers will come out just before 7.3 EOL's. Come Septmber I hope they have 8.1 drivers... sigh.