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ilia_kr
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I don't think most folks use Windows because of its easyness. I think it is because they are used to it and don't feel comfortable with change. Windows is not so easy as compared with Linux for installing. Besides all the extra disks you need for drivers, software, etc there are messy configuration problems, especially networking and internet. Linux automatically detects and sets up my ethernet card, Windows does not.

Once you have been using a system, whether Windows, Mac, or Linux, you get used to it and it becomes "easy." I once went through an arguement with some friends over Macs and Windows. The Mac users said Mac was easier to use. I had recently tried someone's Mac and said bullshit. I didn't know my way around so for me it was "hard." Having been Windows free, save one laptop that runs 2000 fror my Quicken and chess, I find Linux very easy, much easier than Windows.

The only reason folks here seem to keep Windows around is for those odd programs that are not available on Linux.

I set someone up to play with my Linux system who has never used one and in no time they are at home with it and able to do whatever they want. Easy=what you are used to, hard=something new. All these systems, Mac, Linux, and Windows, are equally easy.

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Anyway, the topic isn't about Windows' advantages on Linux, its about spesific one: most people that i know prefer windows beause its easyness. To use it, you should not be computer geek or something.

 

I think that is what the members here are explaining. To determine how easy one thing is to accomplish, you must have a comparison. If you say linux is hard to set up, then we say "compared to what?". Linux versus my VCR - The VCR is easier to set up. In my experience Linux is much easier than Windows to set up and install.

 

I am far from being a "geek". In fact, I was your typical no-brain computer user 2 years ago. You could have put 2 computers in front of me, one running windows and the other running MDV and I probably wouldn't have know the diffrence. After loosing my computer several times to viruses, and becoming more and more frustrated, dealing with the typical Windows mess (spyware, virus scans, defragging, missing dll's, etc.) a buddy of mine (IT guy running a local oil company's servers) suggested I try Linux. I of course thought this was a program that I could install in Windows (I didn't realize there were other OS's out there) He explained that it was a Windows alternative, and selected Mandrake 9.2 for me. And then, as evil firends do, he made me install it myself. And it installed, right off, recognizing all of my hardware. I thought, "that was easy. Maybe I should try this IT thing, if this is all he has to do" - To make a long story short (or at least shorter than it could be) - In that first year I installed 4 flavors of Linux, a total of 8 times on various computers with no problems durring the install or the setup. Granted, I was probably lucky, but, in that same time span, I installed windows 7 times on 2 diffrent computers with 6 screwed up installs.

 

In my case, starting from scratch, and not knowing much about either windows or Linux, It has been much easier working with Linux. Further than that, I spent 10 years using a windows based computer, not understanding what I was doing, and any time I had a problem (fudged app install, dll dissappearance, outdated drivers, computer slowdown, etc) I would just live with the popup errors or install another program to do the same thing as the misbehaving one. When the problems got so severe as to hinder the use of the computer, I'd buy another one. I never thought to understand Windows, because it presented itself as being infalable, and "easy to use", so naturally, if Windows couldn't "repair itself", it was beyond me to figure out.

 

But Linux changed that. Sure I had to learn how to set some things up, but I was encouraged to learn - by the OS, and by the community. This was exactly opposite the "we will handle everything, because you are too stupid" mentality of Microsoft, while all the time creating a rats nest of problems in the background that suddenly result in a "BSOD" or worse, and leaving the user to wonder what happened.

 

To be honest with you, I guess, ignorance was bliss, when I was a mindless computer user, but it came with a price, both monitarily, and in wasted time. I don't particularly consider the time I spend working on my Linux box wasted because I am learning, whereas, the maintanence in Windows is completely wasted time (How much are you learning by running Norton system works, Norton AV, Defrag, Spybot S&D, etc.)

 

Anyway - This is just the experience of one person. Take it for what it's worth.

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This isn't true...at all.

 

I made some friends switch just because I showed them how easy it was to use Linux, when you know a little about it. (Is there any easiest way to install something then Urpmi? seriously?)

 

The thing is, everyone is tending to say it's more difficult because it is different. Change is always hard to accept, and even more when it's a big change like passing from Windows to Linux.

 

Yes, there are drawbacks to using linux, like some CLI things to know, wich you don't have to know in Windows. but in Windows, you have to learn somethings that you don't have to use on Linux, like getting rid of those spywares, wich can be complicated at times (I remember having to play in regedit like an hour to remove one that even Ad-aware and Spybot couldn't get rid of)

 

So what is the main disadvantage of Linux over windows to me? it's different. that's all there is to it. Mandriva installs like a charm, is easy to use/maintain, the only thing that required absolutely to go in CLI was updating my nVidia driver...the others things I had to do or do today have a GUI, and a pretty good gui at that...

 

Edit: Oh and while I'm at it, I precise: When I had a ton of problem to install XP, it was a genuine version ;)

 

 

well said. even windows has the command line. the recovery console is all command line. anyone every restore the registry from the command line?

 

even though i work for a communications company, and i'm a customer service rep (so my job is not tech support but billing), i still get customers that need help with their pc's. i always hear it from windows users. never from mac users. windows users are the ones that have the problems. infact it is so bad, that when a customer wants high speed internet, i discourage using usb connections for the modem.

 

sure i know windows users that havent had a "problem". its interesting what is classified a problem to. its interesting how spyware, and viruses are just accepted. i routinely have to inform customers that the international or 900 call on their bill is from the internet. a dialer that was downloaded and installed and dialed often with out their knowledge. they invariably ask me if there is a way to stop this. short of recomending a new OS, i tell them what they can do. set up a guest account, set up web filtering (dansguardian), get firefox, and sure we can add a 900 block, but it may not help with a dialer. i joked with one today about installing a shot gun.

 

if one reads the news lists from the microsoft site, then one can quickly dismiss that windows is so wonderfull. i used to provide web based tech support to windows users, driver issues were quite common. one of my friends used to work for M$ doing tech support. we all know M$ wont support a pirated version. so we can eliminated piracy as a cause of problems.

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most people that i know prefer windows beause its easyness.
wrong. they use microsoft because they only know microsoft and perhaps apple. but apple is expensive and has almost no games. so using windows seems like a logical choice... if you don't know that linux or freebsd or other os's exist.

 

i agree with what phunni said: you do not alwais have enough time to 'play' with linux, it is for professionals.
phunni is using arch. that is a totally different story than mandriva or ubuntu or linspire. arch is a (more or less) geeky os that wants you to hack files. so this comparision is a bit out of place imho.

 

btw.: i never had to hack my mandriva, neither my ubuntu, neither my yoper, neither beatrix, neither knoppix, neither kanotix, neither ...

 

:)

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oh, just one more note: today i saw a windows magazine that had as its title story: "make windows as slim,secure and fast as linux. make it as useful as apple"

 

funny, eh? :D

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wrong. they use microsoft because they only know microsoft and perhaps apple. but apple is expensive and has almost no games. so using windows seems like a logical choice... if you don't know that linux or freebsd or other os's exist

 

this is so true. it is funny how people make assumptions based on a bias or limited information. when i talk with people about linux, they generaly say something like "inst that the operating system that you have to program?" or "isnt that like DOS?". when i tell them that is not the case, that they can point and click arround, their usually quite intruiged. out of fairness, i do let them know that linux is different and to allow time to get used to it.

 

linux does have quite a selection of games. games that you can run natively or game that you can run through emulation. this is another area i combat when talking with windows users. they commonly think linux has no games. when i let them know that AA, UT, DOOM3 and so on run natively in linux, that usually gets their attention.

 

why people continue to make the assertion that something is hard because their not used to it is beyond me.

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btw.: i never had to hack my mandriva, neither my ubuntu, neither my yoper, neither beatrix, neither knoppix, neither kanotix, neither ...

 

oh, just one more note: today i saw a windows magazine that had as its title story: "make windows as slim,secure and fast as linux. make it as useful as apple"

 

Just a comment on both of these, relating to my experience trying to get Japanese working in Mdk10.1.

 

This was the first time I had to really hack mandrake to get something to work, and I'm still trying to iron out a couple of problems (in between exams, so the poor old linux box isn't getting a lot of love at the moment), but it's basically working. That is, I can get Japanese input in most programs, every time I boot up, and with a comparatively small download (something like 10MB, I can't remember exactly).

 

Compare this to trying to get it going in Win95/98/2K - haven't tried in XP, but I hear it's all supposed to be done at installation. To retro-install a Japanese input method editor, there's a huge download (58MB or so - try doing that on 33.6kbps dialup!) and then it only works on MS Office programs! I mean, this is an official MS program, so is it too much to ask that it at least work with other Windows-based programs? I mean, I'd love it if it even worked with, say, MSN Messenger or Write. Install a proper Windows J-IME, like is in J-Windows? Sorry, you need to get J-Windows for that. Er no, I think I'll stick with Linux.

 

BTW, if there's anyone who might know why Kterm has decided to hide JIS-0212 characters from me, I'd love some enlightenment! I mean, there aren't that many naughty ones...

 

 

Alex

 

P.S. Oh, and about not being able to find information about this or that distribution, I was amazed at the amount of info out there for most of the main distributions (Mdk/Mdv, RH, Suse, Slackware...). Anyway, I thought there wasn't really that much difference between the various distributions in terms of where files are put, although my experience outside Mdk is very little... :woops:

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Side note. Try wiping your computer and installing XP from scratch with a real XP CD from the store. Its not so easy either, especially if you have unusual hardware that isnt supported on disk.

 

Windows is 'easy' because it comes preinstalled.

 

Too right. I rebuilt recently, because I wanted more space for Linux. I installed Windows to 3GB of space, and yeah, had to download drivers for video, network card (from another computer - lucky I had one hey!), modem, chipset drivers, and so on. Oh, and Windows Updates and anti-virus so that I don't get infected as soon as I connect to the internet.

 

Sure, I could take the easy method and use the restore CD that came with my machine. But, why? Because I want space for Linux, I don't want to allocate it all to Windows. And then have to remove stuff I don't want that's installed by the restore CD, and then resize the partitions. Too much mess, too much time taken.

 

The Windows part probably took about two hours when you include the updates, driver installs, service pack, etc. Installing MDK 10.1 OE took about 30 minutes. Then apply updates and done in far less time than Windows.

 

I don't even use Windows, but it's there in case I need it for something. But as soon as I find an alternative for the very few things I use it for, it won't be. 3GB is wasted space for something that I don't use often.

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Look, i've worked with win95/98SE/ME/2000/XP at home and at work and i've never encountered serious problems with the drivers. I used only that drivers that were shipped by a hardware supplier, with the hardware you can find at any PC shop.

 

About installing windows: i had several probles indeed, but only when i installed 'warez' versions, not the genuine ones.

 

Installing time: i've set a dual boot system on my pentium ll (MDK10.1 & winXP).

It took me about a hour to install windows and the same for MDK(3 discs set).

 

Anyway, the topic isn't about Windows' advantages on Linux, its about spesific one: most people that i know prefer windows beause its easyness. To use it, you should not be computer geek or something. Moreover, i agree with what phunni said: you do not alwais have enough time to 'play' with linux, it is for professionals. Unless Linux will be more appealing to an average user - it won't be a number one OS.

 

:D

 

Eh i have a feeling this was aimed at me, the version i installed of windows, was the same windows you could buy in the shop the only difference is that my friend copied it for me, so please stop assuming i was using some half working version from the latest warez site. It is windows fault for not working with my new monitor, windows has known problems with a lot of new monitors, infact i've read several articles on it. Now i actually think you're a troll now, your whole tone is completely wrong, you're now speaking as a windows user and i've seen all this before.

 

Windows user = Refuses to listen and thinks he's always right.

 

I've used linux for about a year now, and i can get a working system blasting my music and playing the latest dvd in about 2 hours, windows isn't any faster in that area. I'll take quality over ease of use any day, but still i find linux easier to use than windows so i don't have that problem. I do not like your tone at all, infact it pisses me off.

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20 or so posts previously would suggest that he's just someone trying to make the switch but having a hard time with it. I am sure that nearly everyone knows that feeling.

 

The results are very satisfying when it happens and many things are easier, but starting out on linux can be an absolute arse.

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Guest Adriano1

Of course, I can install Windows + Office/Openoffice + acrobat + winamp + latest mediaplayer + antivirus + firewall + antispyware + Picasa + CorelDraw + Adobe Photoshop in under 2 hours. Oh! I can't. The 2 hours of Windows install only give you paint and wordpad. Oh, and cmd.exe, yes.

 

Or let's speak of the ease of partitioning in windows? yes, that nice command line tool, as opposed to DrakX.

 

---------------------- -------------------------

 

If you claim to be honest and non-threatening, please try to reread what you type before posting. I was immediately put off by your initial post, as you could see. And I don't think I was the only one. It's just that other people here are more patient than I am. Another post of yours is getting someone else annoyed, as I can read now.

 

What we are trying to say is that saying something is difficult just because you don't know it and can't be bothered to try something new is going to get you little help. I can be much more productive in my linux gnome environment than possibly anywhere else. I can get myself around windows and dos, and possibly also on the Mac, in a very short time, because I don't start with "this is difficult" as soon as I press the "on" button.

 

As I said, if you or your friends find yourselves well using Windows, good for you. No problem. But what's it to do with me? If you want to use Linux for a good reason, use it, ask for help, and ye shall receive. Most of us aren't programmers, so stating here that linux has usability problems will not get you very far. Post the usability bugs to http://qa.mandriva.com where they have a chance to be solved.

Edited by Adriano
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If you claim to be honest and non-threatening, please try to reread what you type before posting. I was immediately put off by your initial post, as you could see. And I don't think I was the only one. It's just that other people here are more patient than I am. Another post of yours is getting someone else annoyed, as I can read now.

 

Woah, settle down sparky. I seriously doubt that he started this thread just to piss you off. His arguments sound a bit like mine the first wk that I tried Mandrake. But level heads on this board showed me what I had been missing, and how little I really understood about using a computer. I can guarantee that if any one had jumped down my throat, I'd have formatted my hard drive and reinstalled windows (might have taken me a few tries to get a good install :D)

 

I don't think he's being combattive. I think it may be more of a language barrier. If he reads all of the posts and doesn't see our point, then let him keep using Windows. It's not like we tear into Mac users because they don't want to see the advantages of Linux. As one of our dear board members likes to say "Use whatever works for you"

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Guest Adriano1

What I'm saying is precisely "hey, with the way you write, some people (me at least) are getting upset. Please try to check before you post". I didn't mean now (but I did when I first answered his post) that he's off to get me angry. Just that he manages to pretty effectively.

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He's defending windows in a linux community.. now if you ask me that's just asking for trouble. Not only that he's also being very negative towards linux. "Linux doesn't do this blah blah" just run along back to windows now. Stop trying to compare windows and linux, if you don't like linux and think it has a bleak future then don't use it.

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