Microsoft & Toshiba collaboration

[SoulSe]

And somehow this has managed to turn into a meaningful conversation nonetheless.

[AussieJohn]

Thank you Iphitus for the lecture on the ACCC.

I am quite aware of how and what of the ACCC. It is also supposed to ensure that the laws preventing restrictive trade practices is observed under the Trade Practices Act. Under its new head, the ACCC has gone soft on this issue and now tends to see things in favour of business and NOT on CONSUMERS.

It is a Government Dept that has white washed its ¨independance¨ under its new head.

I was dealing in politics and the ACCC while you were still in pre-school so I know how and why the ACCC was started and why it worked so well under Professor Allan Fels. Professor Allan Fels, as its original head, made it a body to be respected for what it achieved, but he was making too many waves for a lot of multinationals such as Sony, Microsoft, RIAA, MPIAA and so on. The new head (from 2003) is from Multinational big business so even the most naive person should see the trend.

 

John

[coverup]

I still can't see the point of this discussion. If you wish to buy a Toshiba laptop with linux, here is the link: http://www.vgcomputing.com.au/nsintro.html, it's a Melbourne-based (I think) company.

[aRTee]

I did a webpage on Laptops with Linux some time ago, find it on my site - I tried to turn it into a challenge.

 

Right now, there's HP with ubuntu laptops - not even preloaded, but they come with an ubuntu disc... everything works with that disc, which has a modified kernel and modules for the laptop hardware.

 

Some laptop resellers like emperorlinux throw in an MSWin license in the box - no way to get any laptop without it (although now they may resell the HP ones),... in France there are a number of laptops with preloaded Linux, and no money going to MSWin.

The guy at Errex was also offering those.

 

The one big problem: many people have a big mouth, but supporting those little guys who make it happen, no way, just complaining about how the big vendors don't offer Linux only (or MS free) laptops, and then keep buying Dell or whatnot.

 

BTW if you ask me, where the hell is IBM if they're such good friends with the Linux/FLOSS community???!!!

[iphitus]

Thank you Iphitus for the lecture on the ACCC.

I am quite aware of how and what of the ACCC. It is also supposed to ensure that the laws preventing restrictive trade practices is observed under the Trade Practices Act. Under its new head, the ACCC has gone soft on this issue and now tends to see things in favour of business and NOT on CONSUMERS.

It is a Government Dept that has white washed its ¨independance¨ under its new head.

I was dealing in politics and the ACCC while you were still in pre-school so I know how and why the ACCC was started and why it worked so well under Professor Allan Fels. Professor Allan Fels, as its original head, made it a body to be respected for what it achieved, but he was making too many waves for a lot of multinationals such as Sony, Microsoft, RIAA, MPIAA and so on. The new head (from 2003) is from Multinational big business so even the most naive person should see the trend.

 

John

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for the history class AussieJohn, my 'lecture' on the ACCC was directed at covert who specifically asked how they had any power over anyone. and errr the MPAA and RIAA are not multinationals, they are american only and have no relevance within Australia.

Edited June 3, 2005 by iphitus

[Steve Scrimpshire]

Yeah...the first link is a 404 because this board took out part of the URL...or jean copied it wrong :P

The second link is jean asking about the cost feasibility of buying a cheaper laptop with Mandrake preinstalled and if more ram could be added to it. The discussion dissolved into them telling him he wouldn't likely get an answer to a Mandrake question on a SUSE forum and then telling him he'd be better off buying a good laptop instead of trying to make a racehorse out of an ass. He goes on to say that with Linux pre-loaded, he knows it is fully compatible with Linux.

 

I don't understand how this was supposed to show that Toshiba was in league with Microsoft....maybe the first link was supposed to show that.

I have a Toshiba Satellite and it is all compatible with Linux except for the video card which is a Trident Blade3D and Trident have made it abundantly clear they are never going to release the source to their drivers for the open source community to use for 3D acceleration.

 

The business about Toshiba being in league with Microsoft should already be settled, because the US courts, at least, have already stoned Microsoft for the anti-competitive practice of telling manufacturers and distributors that if they buy MS Windows' licenses, they have to place Windows on all their computers.

 

As for the link posted later in the thread, the legal wording of the EULA would make it very, very easy for an individual to get their money back for the OS in small claims court in America and it usually comes down to that when it is challenged. I've read articles on this before.

Edited June 3, 2005 by Steve Scrimpshire

[coverup]

The one big problem: many people have a big mouth, but supporting those little guys who make it happen, no way, just complaining about how the big vendors don't offer Linux only (or MS free) laptops, and then keep buying Dell or whatnot.

 

BTW if you ask me, where the hell is IBM if they're such good friends with the Linux/FLOSS community???!!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

HP Australia offers desktops/workstations with the choice of XP, RHEL or HP Installer Kit for Linux; e.g, see their xw4200 http://h50025.www5.hp.com/hpcom/au_en/14_3...640summary.html.

AussieJohn, are you aware of this?

[ianw1974]

At the end of the day, there probably isn't a lot we can do. It's most likely that every system we buy will have Windows with it, regardless of whether we want it or not. Obviously, if we don't want, then we can inform them before purchasing, or return it afterwards provided they don't make it difficult, thinking we won't bother to push it, and just sit quietly in the corner and keep it.

 

Then again, things could change in the future, and we may see people giving us the alternative of purchasing the hardware with an OS of our choice. That would be the best method, and as it seems, it's slowly starting to take place!

[coverup]

Dell was trying to sell Linux PC, so did HP a few years ago offering Mandrake (see my previous post about their current Linux offer). IBM used to offer Turbolinux based Intellistation. What about those Mandrake PCs that WalMart was selling? Are they still on sale? Like it or not, Linux is not an OS for mums and dads. Big brand manufacturers support linux because they see server market for it.

[aRTee]

At the end of the day, there probably isn't a lot we can do.

We can't do anything about it???

 

Nonsense.

 

We are doing something about it.

 

 

I'm not buying any system with MSWin preloaded/licence included.

 

If everyone would do that (desktops without OS or with Linux preloaded are really not hard to come by, granted, you have to look harder for laptops but they're out there), it would soon change.

 

You, me, all others here, we all have our wallets to vote with. This is not democratic, it's about financial sense.

 

As long as people still buy from Dell because the small guy offering Linux laptops don't have worldwide guarantee, nothing will change. So, change the world by voting otherwise.

[AussieJohn]

Hello Iphitus. Please accept my apology. I thought the main thrust of the comment was to me.

I guess this is what happens when we don´t address our comments more directly enough and I, like others, don´t always make our direction clear. So sorry.

Cheers. John

 

Regarding the RIAA and the MPIAA, they really are multinationals. They have representative bodies in all Western Countries and while those bodies have different titles, they are almost totally controlled and directed by these two USA orginisations.

These representative bodies are fronts for the RIAA and the MPIAA, no different to how multinationals operate.

Edited June 4, 2005 by AussieJohn

[iphitus]

Please, keep your conspiracy theories to yourself, RIAA and MPAA are not multinationals.

 

We have the ARIA here, Australian Recording Industry Association, and they are in no way whatsoever connected to the RIAA. They arent just another covert 'arm' of the RIAA, dont be silly.

 

If the ARIA were really connected to the RIAA, we'd have people being sued left right and center, and then left again for piracy. We dont. The ARIA is an equivalent, a clone, but is not connected to the RIAA.

 

iphitus

[Havin_it]

Though I still burn to know what the first link was about, I was *enthralled* by Phantom's link to the Netcraft guy's page.

 

Much as I'd like to believe that his unassailable legal position was the deciding factor, I'll go with his own implied assessment of the *real* reason Toshiba caved in: he screwed with their supply-chain.

 

They threw him a bone (a replacement laptop) which, as it so happened, put the computer wholesaler behind the 8-ball. I can only imagine the wholesaler's demeanour and language when they called Toshiba about them having to shell out a new laptop - plus a rebate! - for a used, discontinued one.

 

So apparently the top-level, bulk distributors have some muscle with the manufacturer. They don't like the idea of paying up every time this geek's friends get the news and decide to try it out themselves. And they have many other manufacturers to choose from.

 

It can't matter much to the distributors what product they ship, as long as someone is buying it and not complaining, not throwing too much support overhead back on them. A case like this made them stop for a moment and realise that M$ monopoly can have bad knock-on effects for them. This has certainly given me some fresh insight about where the advocacy effort should be focused...

Edited June 4, 2005 by Havin_it

[AussieJohn]

Whatever you say iphitus. I guess I should shut up and not say anything.

I guess at my age I am no longer as naive as you seem to be. So if you believe what you just said then I think you will believe anything.

 

John.

[tyme]

 

 

so, back on topic and away from the inevitable flamewar:

 

if you go to http://www.pricewatch.com there's a list of notebooks that can be bought without an OS on them.

 

Most PC Manufacturers have some sort of a deal with MS, it's a fact of life. Until the last few years non would sell PCs with Linux on them for fear of MS retribution. Times are changing.

Edited June 4, 2005 by tyme