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10 Reasons to not use Cedega

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Soulse, one of the reasons I disagree with you is simply because it's not a either/or situation.

 

It's simply nto a case of people have to use one OS or another - therefore using windows does not in itself damage linux (many of MS business policies do - but that's a different thing)

 

Playing a game on windows simply includes you in the masses of other who do so. Playing a game on cedega is re-inforcing the idea that there is simply no need to port it.

 

Of course the ideal is simply that the linux community has enough clout to persuade games houses to port many/all of their games. We don't yet - maybe we one day will...

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It may not, directly prevent ports, but it it doesnt encourage them in any way.

 

 

 

WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG

 

That statement is based on totaly faulty logic and if you think it thourgh makes absolutely no sense.

 

Okay, now that we've coverd that, let me explain why. As you yourself said, only an estimated 3% of the pc owning population runs Linux as a primary OS, and realy, they are not a very 'gaming' group of people on average.

 

Where your logic first falls apart is in terms of time scale. It would be true that cedega did not encourage porting if we were talking about a very short amount of time, say, a year. But at the best we're talking about 5 or 10 years or more, because the linux revolution, if it ever happens, will happen slowly.

 

With that time scale, software like cedega encourages people who are a litle less geeky than I am to give linux a try. For that matter, it encouraged ME to give linux a try. When I first started using linux I played a lot of PC games and if I hadn't been able to get a least a few of them running in winex, I'd have never uninstalled windows.

 

I am not alone. For the general masses to ever transition to linux, we need transitional software. Software that bridges the gap between Windows and linux, thereby, brining that laughable 3% up. And that's the other place the logic behind your statement falls apart. Game companies choose not to port to linux for one of two reasons.Either:

a. They've dne the research and they dont' feal that there are enough linux users to make a profit on a linux port. or

b. They've never ehard of linux or didn't know you 'could' port games to it.

 

The fact that some percentage of users will get rudementary functionality out of a small percentage of games is totaly irrelevent.

 

Once linux has a 10% market share, those problems will go away. Then the linux revolution will hapen. But as I said, for that to happen, programs like cedega, wine, crossover office, win4lin and so on are criticaly important. So, not only does cedega encourage ports in the long run, it encourages the entire linux movement.

 

not attacking you, but I've heard that a lot, and it bugs the hell out of me.

Edited by VeeDubb

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WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG

 

Your logic is faulty. Now that I've got that out of the way, let me explain why... :cheeky:

 

I do understand the point you're making actually and I can see the logic, but again you are assumin that the aim here is to get everyone to delete their windows partitions and only use linux. Personally I prefer a system like that - but it may not be best for everyone.

 

Second, you are also assuming that Cedega is intended to be a gap bridging piece of software - this is clearly not transgaming's intention. If it was, why do they bother supporting games that now have native linux clients? Why do they not tell people that there is no need to play wolfenstein (3d or return to) or quake in cedega because they can be played natively?

 

Next, your given reasons for not porting games are not based on real research. There are a number of documented instances of games not being ported primarily because of wine/cedega. A number of games companies explicitly state that if you want to play in linux you have to just use wine.

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My problem is that something like wine or cedega really appeals to my desire to tweak things...

 

Despite thinking it's bad for linux gaming I am really curious to see if I could get some of my favourite games to work. But it's not really worth trying unless you use an official version - and then you have to pay and the your game may just not work and you've wasted your money...

 

Hmmm...

 

I'm aware of the games database but none of the games I want to try are on there and that doesn't mean they don't necessarily work...

 

Hmmm...

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*sigh*

 

Same old, same old. Like I said, I'm tired of the discussion. My point stands: using windows = less classifiable Linux users = less ports. So, same as using Cedega or worse? Definately worse. Because:

 

Using Cedega = Game developers wondering why everyone is using a 'simulator' to play their games = interest in Linux = ports. Or not? Perhaps... but we could argue in circles for months (we have been for years on this issue).

 

I also have a sneaky suspicion that if Cedega was free, you'd stop complaining about it... funny how no one ever applies the same argument(s) to Wine, eh?

 

Anyway, I've cancelled my Transgaming subscription, but only because I have no time/interest for games at the moment. Played enough of Doom 3 for the mean time ;)

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The thing I don't get the most is why all these people are whining about not being able to play windows games in linux. Guess what guys, ITS NOT SUPPOSED TO!!!! What kills linux gaming is all the "linux gamers" who instead of supporting linux games go through hell to get a windows game to run even pathetically in linux. WineX is as good as you're going to get if you must play windows games in linux. Stop whining about it and instead think to the real problem.

Instead of keeping on playing games made only to play in windows, try playing some of the linux games or ports only. That is what will keep linux gaming alive and growing, not trying to make an emulator work better (yah yah yah, wine is not an emulator). I've seen some very applications etc made for linux. Although I don't go into linux as much as I used to do because I can't leave my games, All of my non-game applications are linux orginated. Gaim, mozilla, open office etc etc. Try supporting games like unreal tournament. When unreal tournament started they made a downloadable installer for linux, now its included on every cd of their latest models. Thats progress. America's Army, a great FPS game has a linux port. Download and play that one. I'm sure someone keeps track of which port downloads how many times, let companines see that many people play the linux version rather than the windows version. Try searching the web for good linux games. Just recently I found something called Omega Strike or something, which is a space combat simulater. Great stuff.

And someone remarked that many people need the crutch of windows applictions to transit. Frankly, most linux programs look and feel like windows applictions in at least one theme or setting. Evolution email is almost exactly like outlook express. Using that I was able to transisiton to understand email alot better. Now I use Mozilla. If you want transistionairy software, try supporting those linux applictions which look and feel like windows enough to transit. The pure linux experience can come later.

If you want to help linux, stop :furious3: about winex and people emulating windows programs. Support the linux applictions which are linux. Buy only games which are based in linux or have a linux port. If you are not willing to do this then you have no right to complain if linux gaming falls under or if we must depend on some third party software to play everything. :thanks:

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You're almost right, but there are cases where it is ok to run windows games IMHO. Consider my scenario, I have the following (big commercial) games currently installed on my system:

 

Neverwinter Nights

Quake 3

Unreal Tournament 2004

Return to Castle Wolfenstein

Doom 3 Warcraft 3

 

I had America's Army, but it sucks, so I ditched it :cheeky:

 

Now, you'll notice only two games in that list not running natively, and I play them because; Warcraft 3: bought it before ditching my Window's partitions, like the game (although I only ever play against friends) and want to continue playing it. And then Doom 3 because: I had to review it for a magazine and the Linux port was/is not yet complete. Since ditching Windows I have not payed money for another game that does not run natively (Doom 3 was given to me to review).

 

So, I'm using Cedega to hang onto my old games that I still want to play, and for the last three years I have only bought native Linux games. Am I wrong in using Cedega? No. Does it damage the future of porting? I really can't see how.

 

Like I said in a previous post, the best and most important goal for desktop Linux as a whole (not just for Linux gaming, there is a bigger picture here) is to have people get rid of their Windows partitions, stop being counted as 'dose users and start being included in the group of Linux users. If it takes Cedega to achieve this, then so be it. Dual-booting throws you into both groups, which is counter-productive.

 

All the developers care about is one thing: how many people use Linux? This is how they determine if it is worthwhile to produce a port. They do not want you to use a crappy emulator to play their games, because it makes their games look bad. All they want you to do is convince them that there is a big enough market for Linux games. If you dual boot you prove the opposite. Period.

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Another point is some game companies are NOT going to make (or allow) Linux ports. Period. My favorite game is Civilization III. When pressed about ports, the developers (Firaxis) explicitly stated that ALL their development would be using DirectX, and they had no intention of changing. The *did* allow a company to make a Mac port of the basic game, but the expansion packs haven't even had *that* done. (It was the Mac users who asked about making the game using a more open graphics system instead of DirectX, BTW.) Bu that means the only way to play my favorite game, in my favorite OS, is by using Cedega.

 

I haven't bought *any* non-native games since I made the switch to Linux, but when Civ4 comes out next year, I will buy it. Prefereably a Linux port (though I doubt it :sad: ), but if I must, I will buy the Windows version, even if it won't run in Cedega.

 

I guess I'm just not hardcore enough. ;)

 

Then again, while I find Windows to be *acceptable* as a game machine, I do all my important stuff in Linux. ;)

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Basically there are a few trains of thought on this Cedega matter.

 

Let's focus on the potential effects that Cedega can have, in relation to Linux and games on Linux.

 

1 - it can have a positive effect. It will allow more gamers to 'do Linux' therefore create a larger userbase/potential market.

 

2 - it can have a negative effect. With ports to Linux not necessary 'since people who really want to can run the windows version under Cedega anyway', there is no incentive to port any games.

 

3 - it will not have any important effect. Some games will get ported, in the future more than now since the Linux desktop marketshare is growing.

 

 

Personally I'm leaning between 2 and 3 here.

 

I do think that if you are hot about Linux you should not ever buy any Windows game anymore. And if you care more for games, just run them however you can, Cedega if you must, better than Win....

Look at it this way: if you are willing to buy a windows game and run in whatever way you can (boot to win, use cedega or winex), you are effectively a 'windows-game buyer'.

Which makes you count within the Windows-market, not the Linux-market.

 

 

Why it doesn't matter all that much (to me): I don't really play games, all I want is for Linux to gain marketshare so it will be trivial to obtain well supported hardware and get it to run well. A lot of Linux fans seem to think for that to happen Linux must be capable of running all the latest games. I believe that the rise of Linux, for instance in the far east, will do much much more for Linux marketshare and thus hardware compatibility issues.

 

Running on Cedega/winex does have you count as a linux user, which does put weight in the scale for hardware manufacturers.

 

 

Anyway, I do understand the beef that DOlson has with Transgaming/Cedega.

 

Ideally, Cedega would be a stopgap, something to help migrate people from windows to Linux. Where, as we all agree, the end of the journey is that games are available natively.

Sure, there are still some people claiming that running games via Cedega has them run better than on windows. But compare the performance of native linux games to cedega run games, in no case can the cedega version run better, if both ways are implemented properly. Wine may not be an emulator, it is an extra layer in between that you are better off without.

 

 

Now, for this more or less smooth migration, it would be nice if all old games are supported, but no new games, so there is a true market for those - supposing people don't boot windows to play them. Then there will be an incentive to port, more games for linux, in native form. End of journey.

 

However, Transgaming is not working on supporting any old games. The are working on supporting all the new games, and even on supporting games for which there is a native port.

 

Think of it this way: the 'ideal' end of the journey is to have linux native games.

Now think of what the goal is of Transgaming.

The point being: they have a contrary goal than what would be best for Linux and the Linux (gamers) community: they want to stay in business and make money.

With native Linux games, it's game over for them, no more subscriptions sold. So they want to get a lock-in with linux gamers.

THIS COMPANY IS NOT FIGHTING ON OUR SIDE, THEY ARE FIGHTING ON THEIR OWN SIDE.

 

WHICH IS FINE!

Really, sorry to shout out, but this is the way businesses work.

Ideally we should not have any need for Cedega, and I won't spend my money there. I can wait for the Linux games to come, or just select some already ported game, there are plenty of those anyway.

 

To summarize:

if you want to use linux and also want to play some specific game(s), you have these options:

1 - boot to windows if there is no native Linux version of the game you want to play (you likely have windows since it came preinstalled - if you don't have a legal license, either buy one or go by point 2 or 3 - piracy is not an option)

2 - play the game under cedega (accepting that it may not run so well)

3 - suppress the urge and find a native Linux game to play

 

Considering that in all cases you will want your hardware to function with linux, 'my' cause is served, since you will count as a linux user... unless you just boot windows and not linux...

Only those who are willing to stick to no. 3 are the true linux market, game houses will just sell the windows version to those who fall under 1 and 2. So best for Linux is to do 3.

 

The main point DOlson wants to make is that you should buy Linux native games if you want (duh) Linux native games.

Instead of having Transgaming make money, it is better to have LGP (Linux Game Publishing) make money.

 

If Transgaming where to work on ports as well as Cedega, with Cedega as intermediate solution and ports as 'end' solution, they'd have my blessing. Right now, they are on a track that should ideally end as soon as the Linux marketshare reaches 6 to 10 percent. Naturally it won't, so there will be that conflict of interest.

 

 

 

edit:

have a look at this:

http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,128...tw=wn_tophead_2

A Silicon Valley startup claims to have cracked one of most elusive goals of the software industry: a near-universal emulator that allows software developed for one platform to run on any other, with almost no performance hit.

 

For example, Wiederhold said QuickTransit will allow the next-generation Xbox (which will have a Mac-like PowerPC chip) to run first-generation Xbox software (which was written for an Intel chip).

 

In demonstrations to press and analysts, the company has shown a graphically demanding game -- a Linux version of Quake III -- running on an Apple PowerBook.

Edited by aRTee

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All of a sudden there are no Windows games or Linux games, there are just PC games. Buy any game and use it on whatever system you have.

 

Surely this would be the ideal situation? (Assuming that all games vendors producing Linux version of all games is an unattainable goal.)

 

Why would you assume that all games vendors producing Linux version of all games is an unattainable goal?

 

Maybe 'all' is not to shoot for, not all games vendors produce windows versions of all games either. But let's say 'most', or all that are releasing windows games.

 

No reason to shoot any lower than that. If Linux where to have 25% or more of the market, shouldn't they?

 

 

Another point is some game companies are NOT going to make (or allow) Linux ports. Period.

 

Again, why do you think so? It's a matter of marketshare and money. If they can win back the extra cost of development they will. Well, count also any tricks that MS has to keep them from releasing Linux ports...

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Another point is some game companies are NOT going to make (or allow) Linux ports.  Period. 

 

Well then they will go out of business as the windows market shrinks?

 

I have to agree 100% with aRTee, transgaming has a negative interest in native linux ports.. and again I agree with aRTee that this is perfectly normal..

 

the point is people have to realise this... then decide knowing transgaming will actively try and prevent game manufactuerers porting to linux...

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In the short term, Cedega will probably benefit Linux - it is likely to help increase user base.

 

In the long term, however, if the linux user base increases to the point where it is a significant slice of the market then cedega will be bad for linux gaming simply because it is not in their business interests to have games ported.

 

Either they will realise this and try, in the meantime, to develop other revenue streams or they will begin to discourage ports more vigorously

 

I have to say - before I am accused of being a hypocrite (which I freely admit I am) that I did get a copy of Cedega yesterday from a source which will remain unnamed. If the two windows games I play run well in cedega then I will buy a subscription.

 

My desire to tweak has got the better of me... :oops:

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I have to agree 100% with aRTee, transgaming has a negative interest in native linux ports.. and again I agree with aRTee that this is perfectly normal..

 

the point is people have to realise this... then decide knowing transgaming will actively try and prevent game manufactuerers porting to linux...

 

Quite simply: not true.

 

Transgaming is actively involved in porting, have a statement on their website commiting themselves to having more native ports developed. They also sell native Linux games in their online store and have openly stated that the ultimate goal is to have native Linux ports. All these statements are available on www.transgaming.com (I can find exact links for the lazy as well, just at work now).

 

They will also stop supporting Doom 3 once the native port is released.

 

Sorry, can't allow FUD. Transgaming DO NOT have a negative interest in native linux ports.

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*sigh*

 

I also have a sneaky suspicion that if Cedega was free, you'd stop complaining about it... funny how no one ever applies the same argument(s) to Wine, eh?

 

 

 

LOL, you couldn't be more right. Everybody always acts like cedega is this horrible thing because it 'discourages ports' which as I said, is a grossly illogical conclusion based on a false premis. Nobody every says "damn those guys at codeweavers! They realy discourage microsoft from releaseing MS office for Linux." Nobody ever says, "damn, if only there was no wine......"

 

Look guys, the only thing cedega discourages is dual booting. If you think that there is more than a tenth of enough linux users for anyone to take linux seriously as a platofrm for gaming then you are fooling yourself. I love linux. I realy do, but I'm a huge geek and so is everyone I've ever met in person who used linux as their everyday home opperating system.

 

Game companies don't care about us. Well, game companies don't care about anyone realy, but that another topic. To companies like Vivendi, we are nothing. We are no more interesting than mac users. In fact, because our open source format is differnt from what they have always used, they fear it. We are like a biting fly. Small, impotent, and good to avoid.

 

Even if cedega does discourage ports, it is a nothingth of the discouragement that the very nature of linux provides.

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Even if cedega does discourage ports, it is a nothingth of the discouragement that the very nature of linux provides.

 

Well one could argue with linux providing such a discouragement in itself that is enough without further discouraging it.

 

However quite a few companies HAVE released linuxports ....

this seems to indicate that at least in some sectors it is worthwhile....

 

secondly... lots of certain types of gamers are geeks too.

Lots of gamers build their own machines compared to people running Ms office

Even just the nature of online games where your hooked up to the internet for long periods must encourage more linux users, let alone keeping the OS from rebooting for a week ... etc.

 

So lots of serious gamers will be the people who use linux.... and linux potentially could be a large market share in certain niche games....

the point is if its being run via cegega then you are voting against linux twice (presuming its a legal copy)

 

first you buy the winblows version that indicates to their market research your using it under winblows... and then you run it under linux but noone knows...

 

Lots more games are available for Mac than linux even though there are more linux users... every time they buy a mac version they signal to the game manufactuerer that it was worthwhile doing a mac version....

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