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I am also neither a "MS basher" or "penguin hater", but I think MS is getting a bad wrap here.

 

 

I haven't read any of this for a long time but, judging from this remark, I'll jump in and say "me too!" :cheeky:

 

'usually' people that complain about win haven't a clue what they're doing, or talking about :cheeky:

Edited by bvc
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I am also neither a "MS basher" or "penguin hater", but I think MS is getting a bad wrap here.  Everyone keeps saying that upgrades or installations, or virtually anything to do with Windows results in crashes or problems.  I've built 5 computers by hand, all running different versions of Windows (98, 2000, and XP) and never had any problems.  As far as adding new hardware or drivers, no problems there either.  I've seen my Windows 2000 system crash a few times, but that's because my RAM went bad.  After I replaced it, all was good.  I've just recently started using Mandrake Linux, and I like it, but my experience with it has been lukewarm so far.  I had to install twice just to get it running and once it was installed, I found out I had to get several updates to get some of the software working (GAIM, Kopete).  Sometimes it locks up multiple times during the boot process and I have to keep hard restarting until I can get to the login screen.  It took me two days to get K3b to work.  I've had less trouble and frustration in the 7 years of using Windows than the 2 weeks of using Linux.  True, Windows has its flaws, but so does any version of Linux.  When I read that Mandrake is supposed to be the most hardware compatible distro, I shudder to think what the other ones must be like!  :D  I like Mandrake Linux very much and hope to one day be able to completely migrate over to Linux, but until then I will have to have my Windows crutch close by.

 

This is not criticism and its certainly not directed at you but it illustrates where a little knowledge can be a bad thing.. when combined with expectations!!!

 

So here I go:

W2K : Yep I found it reasonably stabe too. 98,XP .. no

when you stay stable do you mean weeks, months or years between reboots?

Im at work now on my ycuky XP machine... Our Win IT staff remotely reboot it once a week...its a 2Ghz Pentium HP crap but it still needs rebooting every week and inbetween I end up rebooting it sometimes 2-3 times per day!!!

Next to this is a Solaris machine which is about 5 years old.

It hasnt been rebooted since it was installed in my room several months ago..

It wont need rebooting unless the UNIX IT people upgrade Solaris or switch to linux...I used to administer 5 servers and 20+ UNIX workstations ... there were two of us but only for vacation/sick cover we both had other jobs too. I can probalby count on one hand forced reboots if I exclude the shutdown for 8 hours on 31st dec 1999 and when we upgraded Solaris 2.5.1 to 2.6 ! I think ALL of these were on one machine with a faulty backplane .... We even upgraded the disks live..

 

7 years ago when you started using Win everything was new....

When was that 98... ? Well I have been using PC's a lot longer but for instance I guess in 93-95 I was having a leanring experience... on Win3.1 and DOS 6.

 

This wasnt my first time it was just when I started to get deeper into computers...

Anyway, I remember screwing round for a week trying to get EMM386 to load drivers into High mem just to leave enough conv RAM to run DOOM ... Wow ... Installing doom was hell but when I look back it seems like me and my mate Brian loved every minute of hacking around... we both had custom machines we had built ourselves.. I could go on right until I stopped using windows (which appears to be not long after you started) and now I only use it at work and then only when I must!

 

I think if you think back to 7 years ago you were hacking around just as much but your expectations were lower, it ws fun and you didnt keep thinking... if this was windows I could x,y,z :D

 

I had to get several updates to get some of the software working (GAIM, Kopete). 

 

No Gaim and Kopete work fine the connect to ICQ straight away? ... From this I presume you were trying to connect to msn IM. Well big surprise, Microsoft changed it to stop third party apps connecting! Several times so the fact it works at all is a miracle. The main question is why would anyone want to use it... I know your friends use it but NOTHING would incite me to use a MS passport...

(I do have yahoo - I just will not have a MS passport!)

 

OK now Ill be deadly serious:

I like Mandrake Linux very much and hope to one day be able to completely migrate over to Linux, but until then I will have to have my Windows crutch close by.

This isnt happening... it works the other way round.

Lets say we look at it this way and I keep linux around until Windows has freeweb, mail and ftp servers etc. etc.

 

Linux is different... you might not think its better but I do ... but we can agree its different!!!

This means you often need a new way to look at it and while you have a crutch nearby you just fall on that!

(I did this for 2 years) - once you get enough confidence to get rid of the crutch you will progress much faster... but while you have it you will constantly have some minor nagging things that you just never sort out.

 

Mandrake and indeed any linux is compatible with ANY hardware... you have the source code and as per another thread you can write your own drivers.

Not everyone wants to do this but you can... and the important thing .. so can everyone else! This usually means sooner or later it will be written by someone.

 

In the past (kernel <1.2) this meant recompiling the kernel... loadable modules didnt exist... this understandably put off a lot of people... however slowly since then (1995) LKM (loadable kernel modules) became a reality and you now just need to build a module. Some of these use extensions in the kernel and up to kernel 2.6 (2003) this could still mean a kernel recompile for certain things.. (like turning on SCSI emulation)

 

Now firtuntely for YOU thats history but of course the driver writers are still catching up a little. However the public domain Windows driver writers... what are they doing? They do exist... things like SCSI tape support etc. but since the certification and driver signing MS has pretty much stopped individuals and forced hardware companies to hand over the goods to MS.... so they can sign the driver.

 

 

And while MS Word support is prety close, support for Excel files and Powerpoint presentations is sketchy.

Agreed but no less sketchy than powerpoint 95 to XP or the same for Excel!

 

multimedia doesn't work out of the box. at least not with a Mandrake install. I had to go get the DVD decoding library

Talk to the US governement they spoilit for the rest of the world. This is 100% a political issue, its not even a legal issue.....since its legal in France. Its only done so that Mandrakes US assets are not seized. Mandrake should have the balls to make this obvious...(along with others but they just cow-tow)

 

Yes, it's the site designer's fault for using microsoft proprietary techniques

No its not its UEFA's fault for not specifying that the designer should stick to standards... they probably employed some windows drone who cant actually code HTML anyway...

 

- There are very few games for linux (there are some, I run UT2004 under linux). I'm a gamer and my gaming machine will always be a windows machine because of that.

Yeah OK,,, I got my XBOX for games tho....

 

- hardware installation isn't as easy as under windows. Just count how many "my sound card isn't working" threads are in the hardware forum. Yes, the problems can usually be fixed, sometimes easily, but it didn't work out of the box.

Look on Win forums for my soundcard isnt working.... I guess all these people checked the compatibility before buying.... nope.. well it probably would if they had... still even better it probably will even if they dont and even if it doesnt work at first it can probably be gotten to work....

 

Just a bit tongue in cheeck but my USB <insert here> doesnt work under NT !

when I tried W2K almost nothing worked ... driver wise ..I had to get a new Adaptec driver for the SCSI card and a new driver for the exabyte tape drive.. whereas I just plugged it in and configured it under linux and was backing up in no time!

 

so its really not so different after all.

 

NVIDIA is a Mandrake issue... they have the drivers, they are FREE$ but they PRETEND they cant distribute them in the dload edition. If you buy a Powerpack they are included!

This is a different thread tho... :D

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NVIDIA is a Mandrake issue... they have the drivers, they are FREE$ but they PRETEND they cant distribute them in the dload edition.  If you buy a Powerpack they are included! 

This is a different thread tho... :D

 

On that point... I disagree that Nvidia drivers are 100% free... after all, you get that little Nvidia 'nag screen' when you boot into your system. Maybe not a problem for a lot of you, but I boot and shutdown my system every day. And I *hate* how obtrusive that is... can that really be described as 100% free?

Edited by Darkelve
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Whoa, whoa, whoa! All I was trying to say is I think people bash Windows for no good reason. I like Linux, and you can criticize MS all you want, but I still think Windows 2000 and XP are good OSes. As far as your comment about the stability...I can understand buisnesses wanting their computers to stay up and running for months without a reboot or crash, but does the average desktop user really care about that? I know I don't. I've had Windows 2000 and XP running for months without every experiencing a crash or reboot. Is this significant? Maybe, maybe not. As for the USB issue in Windows NT...NT is not USB compliant. There never was a problem with NT and USB devices...it wasn't built with USB support to begin with. Does this make MS look bad? Probably, but how many threads have been in this forum about Mandrake users having lockups from USB devices?

 

As far as my crutch comment....maybe there are drivers for every piece of hardware, but if there were, and they all worked correctly, there would be a lot less posts in this forum. What I meant was that until I know how to get Linux to do everything that I need it to do, I will have to keep Windows around. I am new to Linux and thus don't know how to write my own drivers. Bottom line: I like Linux and am eager to learn more about it, but Windows is a great OS too and I don't think it's ok to condemn an entire entity for a few bad experiences. If that were acceptable, Linux wouldn't be around either.

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Yeah I know that is why I started saying it wasnt criticism

 

Whoa, whoa, whoa!  All I was trying to say is I think people bash Windows for no good reason.  I like Linux, and you can criticize MS all you want, but I still think Windows 2000 and XP are good OSes.  As far as your comment about the stability...I can understand buisnesses wanting their computers to stay up and running for months without a reboot or crash, but does the average desktop user really care about that?  I know I don't.  I've had Windows 2000 and XP running for months without every experiencing a crash or reboot.  Is this significant?  Maybe, maybe not.  As for the USB issue in Windows NT...NT is not USB compliant.  There never was a problem with NT and USB devices...it wasn't built with USB support to begin with.  Does this make MS look bad?  Probably, but how many threads have been in this forum about Mandrake users having lockups from USB devices?

 

As far as my crutch comment....maybe there are drivers for every piece of hardware, but if there were, and they all worked correctly, there would be a lot less posts in this forum.  What I meant was that until I know how to get Linux to do everything that I need it to do, I will have to keep Windows around.  I am new to Linux and thus don't know how to write my own drivers.  Bottom line: I like Linux and am eager to learn more about it, but Windows is a great OS too and I don't think it's ok to condemn an entire entity for a few bad experiences.  If that were acceptable, Linux wouldn't be around either.

 

 

MS never released USB patches or several others like ip tunneling for NT becuase it wanted to force people to upgrade. However you need to know that.... and you do because of years of using MS...what I was trying to illustrate without being rude is linux also has history and those who know it and have used it for a long time recogise reasons for things..

 

Windows is crap... technically - practically as you say its perception and home users probably don't need years of uptime but its crap for plenty of soft reasons too from product registration to locking out of third party vendors like netscape, stacker - norton etc etc. they have gradually squeezed out superior software by making windows incompatible with it... and not providing the same API as they use for their won products!

 

The fact I even need a virus checker is due largely to how insecure windows is and was in the past. Even XP doesnt have proper networking, TCP/IP is still built OVER netbui which is so archaic as to be a non routable protcol.

 

 

but does the average desktop user really care about that?

Let me explain... the average desktop user is a product of Microshaft and one that makes me suffer.....

 

The average desktop user has been controlled into doing what MS think a average desktop user should do.

Hence look at internet access. I have to PAY for it which is really a product of Microshaft who originally tried to prevent the internet from happening before making a turn around to if they cant stop it control it.

 

So Internet access should be free, why not ? Excluding the backbone its becuase you need all sort of MS crap to connect because ISP's developed this way controlled by MS. What do I need from an ISP, nothing! I just need access to the backbone and an ATM switch and linux...

 

ATM switches are expensive because they are not mainstream.... but the whole setup of todays internet is based on MS not having networking in windows. (you can say they do but they don't its bolted on the side not built in)

 

So my ISP forces me to pay for a phone line I dont use, web space I dont need and email addresses I dont want.

 

Linux is perfactly capable of acting as a web server, mail server and host my own pages....it just developed this way becuase thats how Windows is/was.

 

So the average user pays for services they shouldnt have to and still cant do for themselves the most basic things like running their own mail server?

 

Microsft actually helped the concept of the desktop user to exist BUT then bound them to slavery. They remind me of oneof those organisations that smuggle people into countries by selling tickets on overcrowded boats or stuffing them into airitight containers for the cost of theor life savings and if they survive they are free to work off their debt ... but they must live in the appartment provided by the company and are given tokens to buy food at the company shop and the rent is more than they are paid so they never break free!

 

I dont condem MS for a few bad experiences ... I condem it for a whole philosophy. Neither do I just love linux and opensource for a few good ones... its a matter of philosoophy and choice.

 

Unfortunately you have to experience this gradually....

I started using linux just to learn it ... I was happy in my winWorld ... but over time I realised how restricted MS made me.

 

So going back ... the average user doesnt host their own web server or mail server hence they dont care about down time. Meanwhile MOBO's do crappy power management since 'only professional users' need 24x7 ... etc.

Had windows not been so restrictive (and had MS not botched ACPI 1 in win98 deliberately forcing everyone else to misimpliment it) then many more things might have been possible....

 

MS was once a peoples OS... never quite in the way of linux but allowing millions to own and lanr computers. It is now a control of the people as to what they can reasonably expect a PC to do.

The latest is to add DRM and stuff into the OS... even in countries where this might be illegal.

 

 

NVIDIA is a Mandrake issue... they have the drivers, they are FREE$ but they PRETEND they cant distribute them in the dload edition.  If you buy a Powerpack they are included! 

This is a different thread tho... :D

 

On that point... I disagree that Nvidia drivers are 100% free... after all, you get that little Nvidia 'nag screen' when you boot into your system. Maybe not a problem for a lot of you, but I boot and shutdown my system every day. And I *hate* how obtrusive that is... can that really be described as 100% free?

 

 

Nope your right you have to edit a line in the XF86Config line, either by hand or using xf86cfg and add SPLASH=0 (or something very close to stop it) so it does require SOME intervention and isnt therefore 100% free but thats why I put the $FREE

 

 

hehe that should make your mornings a tad more pleasant :D

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good point the Internet should be FREE as in Ice cream....

 

people should be able to rent bandwidth/lines etc. but not be forced to use an ISP...

 

of course some people might want to use an ISP and as in 'free speech' I think they should.... if they want...

 

indeed its not a cost issue but a freedom issue mainly for me for the ISP deciding what ports to block so it can prevent me for instance hosting my own mail server.

 

As it happens mine doesnt, not cos theyre a great ISP though!

 

Im now looking at changing from 512kb/s to 5Mb/sec for the same cost!

 

... but anyway the point is I understand how you feel just coming from winworld... but we have different customs here :D ... seriously the difference is being forced to upgrade from NT4 just to use a webcam or IP tunneling or ....

 

My Work win machine which I hardly use has gone from a P500 (If I remember with 128MB RAM) to P2000 with 512MB and the net result is I can now run XP which means I can use USB... (amongst other stuff)...

except the PC is no faster except the odd bit of pure CPU stuff (like sorting a column in Excel) mainly it just gets more bloat...

 

 

Now I just get bored with XP, I cant even be bothered to learn it.... because its all closed and I have to agree to endless stuff just to get media player or hotmail (which I used to have before MS took it over)

 

My main reason is I dont trust MS and I wouldnt give them access to my bank details, personal stuff etc. etc. People in winland have got so used to click the I Agree button that they have given away all rights to privacy and even let MS delete things from their PC...

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Well, I figured out that running things from an updated version is what caused the lockups in Mandrake.

 

I can repeat myself till I'm blue in the face: most problems are due to flakey or bad hardware! Also, some combinations of hardware don't get along, or don't get along in a particular OS and version.

 

In Windows, when changing video cards, not uninstalls remove everything related to the old viideo card. This can be a real hassle if switching between say ATI and nVidia (either direction).

 

Many here understand these and other things. I build my own system(s).

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In Windows, when changing video cards, not uninstalls remove everything related to the old viideo card. This can be a real hassle if switching between say ATI and nVidia (either direction).

 

Well, I can say that if I play certain games, sometimes my PC spontaneously reboots after a while... even non resource-intensive games. Which makes be believe it has something to do with the nvidia drivers on windoze... hard to believe at first, but now it seems not many other possibilities are left...

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A no warning reboot can be flakey System RAM (main memory). That happened to me once. Fortunately, a burn in memory test fixed it. That doesn't always work, though.

 

The games in question may be accessing an address (or more) that others don't use. It also depends on what else is running (taking up memory). Sometimes the RAM socket can be the culprit. I don't think this is true in your case, Darkelve.

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