theYinYeti Posted July 28, 2004 Report Share Posted July 28, 2004 @gowator: thanx. at least one person on my side. will you come to the woods? i have a nice fire with some beans&bacon plus coffee. :DI also agree. Can I have a drink at the woods, too? Hum... no, it seems I still have some work to do... Yves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gowator Posted July 28, 2004 Report Share Posted July 28, 2004 ah... long memories! but seriously I think what Artic wants is to keep open possibilities... Its almost the opposite of M$... where everything is bundled and you cant choose your level of bloat...i.e. IE can be hidden but not (easily) uninstalled, if you want USB then you cant use NT but you can use 98... lets say Im happy with NT4 as a OS (go on just for the sake of discussion) but I want to use a webcam... my PC is say a P500 with say 128MB RAM .... and running Word 2.0 and Excel 5.0 Lets say Im happy...I paid for the NT license and the other licenses and I just wanna get use out of them... so I but a webcam/usb modem/etc. OK, I either need to get rid of NT4 and replace it with Win98 or .... Win2k or XP... if I go Win98 and I loose domain logins and stuff I havent a hope in hell of running XP on this... So basically prob good oole Win2K except I cant but it anymore.... Even then it will run like a pig... and I will need a whole lotta work just to get back where I was before (Will word 2.0 still run?) and yet all I wanted to do was use the USB modem! Linux isnt like this... I can backport support into a 2.2 kernel if I want but a 2.6 should still run OK.... I choose a very light WM etc. etc. my only conceivable prob is getting mandrake 10.X to actuially install with only 128MB RAM.... what is important is we keep backwards compatibiity on both HW and SW. My fathers old P266 is currently acting nicely as a web server and firewall. But Im not suggesting we stop development just we are careful about forcing eye-kandy or general bloat.... K3B is a great example of reusing work. It is basically just a shell to cdrecord and mkisofs... because of this its easy to extend it with DVD support and/or ripping etc. At the same time it looks pretty cool (IMHO) and it is again IMHO simple and intuitive as any WinBlows designed SW... It has now attracted sponsorship from Lacie who will continue to support Linux :D http://www.k3b.org/ This is IMHO a great way forwards... if you use KDE anyway then its literally a few hundred kb of code, if not then you need the Qt libs.... So is K3B bloat ? depends largely if you have a minimalist install or a KDE install .... however.... dont be dissapointed becuase plenty of other front ends exist with gtk or even java... hence this is the true power of linux.... choice, choice and more choice.... so lets keep the choice, lets make sure we have dumbed down boxes for my mum yet fully functional boxes for us to play with.... the most important part is not to loose site of our choices and to recognise bloat as bloat... not as something we need Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkelve Posted July 28, 2004 Report Share Posted July 28, 2004 (edited) About the classification of information, I have been thinking about this for a little while. An interesting thought I had was to use a -what I will call- "data source"-approach. It's all very much speculation, but I am curious about the good, the bad & the ugly B) The files you work with are classified in a certain type of "Data source", which in my case is structured tree-like. E.g. at the top you have 'Data Sources' with subcategories. E.g. Data Source >>Media source >>>>Video source >>>>Audio source >>>>>>Playlists >>Document source >>>>Presentation source >>>>Text document source >>>>Spreadsheat source >>Configuration source >>Copy/Paste source (?) >>Application source >>Update source / Installation source >>Web source >>>>Bookmarks >>>>P2P >>>>Download source >> "Crossover" categories (linked with eachother, e.g. video is linked with audio) These "sources" can then be used by applications to more readily have access to them. A file can have its own meta information or you can manually enter it. Or the meta information can be determined by filetype Every data source can have a standard behaviour (like filetypes) and you can add files to a certain data source yourself. A few practical examples: You install a new media/mp3 player. It can use the data sources to import your playlists, rather than looking for them on your Hard disk or you poiting them out. According to the data source, In the KDE "actions" menu, there could be an extra option generated. E.g. if it is an audio source, you have the extra option "add to playlist". I don't know for sure, but perhaps it would also be easier to "chain" certain actions, like rip/mix/burn or the like. How should this be saved? I don't know. In some kind of database? In a folder structure? In a database with a script that "mirrors" a folder structure (e.g. I add a playlist to the "audio sources" which would be saved in the database and the script would create a directory with the files in it in a folder structure somewhere in my /home folder). whew... that was a wagonload of text... so what do you think? Edited July 28, 2004 by Darkelve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gowator Posted July 28, 2004 Report Share Posted July 28, 2004 Darkelve, This is already done with many apps like Lphoto or Ltunes ... the difference being its not standardised yet and it is written over/on an existing filesystem. (That is the attributes of the file are part of the extended attribuites of the database fields) Oracle's shared filesystem is another implementation.... however looking at this the database part is the index of the filesystem. Even using Oracle SFS large external objects are kept outside the main database as BLOBS (Buinary Large Objects) or semi-inside as NLISTS. NLists and blobs are pretty much interchangeable, they represent the bulk data of a file ... striped of its indexing. A file is really just a set of 1,0 on a media like a disk. Tape backup progs are another example of this. They allow searching by multiple criteria .. which if the data were on the disk might be achieved with a grep. I expect that more apps will use database front ends to catalogue sets of files and that media files are probably the first place to look. Think of it like google with sounds and movies.... it searches the db for the correct charactaristics and then pulls the actual file,. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkelve Posted July 28, 2004 Report Share Posted July 28, 2004 (edited) Darkelve,This is already done with many apps like Lphoto or Ltunes ... the difference being its not standardised yet and it is written over/on an existing filesystem. (That is the attributes of the file are part of the extended attribuites of the database fields) Oracle's shared filesystem is another implementation.... however looking at this the database part is the index of the filesystem. Even using Oracle SFS large external objects are kept outside the main database as BLOBS (Buinary Large Objects) or semi-inside as NLISTS. NLists and blobs are pretty much interchangeable, they represent the bulk data of a file ... striped of its indexing. A file is really just a set of 1,0 on a media like a disk. Tape backup progs are another example of this. They allow searching by multiple criteria .. which if the data were on the disk might be achieved with a grep. I expect that more apps will use database front ends to catalogue sets of files and that media files are probably the first place to look. Think of it like google with sounds and movies.... it searches the db for the correct charactaristics and then pulls the actual file,. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> This is already done with many apps like Lphoto or Ltunes ... the difference being its not standardised yet Yeah, I meant so *every* application can access and use the information. And then use the available information to do cool things with it B) Think of it like google with sounds and movies.... it searches the db for the correct charactaristics and then pulls the actual file,. that's, sort of, what I was implying. But people say this will be slow and/or awkward? Edited July 28, 2004 by Darkelve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reb2 Posted July 28, 2004 Report Share Posted July 28, 2004 ok how about this, from a noob's point of view. What does m$ windows give me when i install the damn thing? 1, the operating system itself, along with an internet browser, and an email client. 2, a media player. 3, wordpad and for some reason notepad (text editors?). 4, and a couple of simple games have i missed anything? (don't think so). now i get hold of linux and i've got thousands and thousands of well, stuff! most of which i have never heard of! windows doesn't even load drivers for my m/board, graphics, sound, network card. infact it does nothing for me at all. linux on the other hand loads everything for me! (i am lucky my hardware is compatible with mandrake anyway). but what are all these package thingy's?????????????????? to be honest i don't want to know!! i just want / need an internet browser, an email client, a media player and some cool games that work! open office is all that i personally would need, for anything i want to do, so i wouldn't need koffice or gnome office. i think the linux world would be better off saying ok which is the best office application (as regards functionality and compatibility) and everyone get on and develope that. kde could drop the development of koffice and use their resources to further the development of the kde desktop! gnome could do the same. I know linux is about choice and adopting this idea would cut back on that choice. however at the moment too much development hours is wasted on how many different office applications? all those coders all those hours just trying to make their office package as good as one that already exists? set those coders free on to other development work that is desperately needed. like drivers, other applications, games etc. all i want as a noob is something streamlined, stable, and simple. that does what a home user needs. just my two penneth :unsure: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gowator Posted July 29, 2004 Report Share Posted July 29, 2004 Good points reb2.... its always good to have a noobie perspective since its easy to forget what indeed the point of having a computer is! However although I understand where your coming from consider that the whole idea of open source is that parallel development isnt wasted. The second aspect is that you the user make decisions based on personal choices not some comittee .. if you use OpenOffice and it suits your purpose then fine but if not try others.... So take an older application like a CD ripper.. much of the functionality might have been available in earlier ones ... some might be functionally identical but look different etc. but the point is say someone writes the algorithm to query ddb it can be used by the next project... several CD ripper SW might exist together and these can be used for different functionality or just becuase they look different ... and what is the best ripper? well firstly are we talking sound quality/compression or functionality and filenaming and adding the full mp3 tags... ? Does a ripper need a database (as per discussion with Darkelve) or does it just make files? Technically ogg is better than mp3 but its useless to me if my hardware player only plays mp3! Then there are different mp3 rippers... do you want the fastest or the one which will have least impact on your CPU.... and other tasks? In all of these there is IMHO no right and no worng answer. I had a friend who felt it should be 'illegal' to sell PC's without printers becuase for him a PC is useless without one. Other people think a PC should have sound and 3D accelerated video but my email server has neither.... open office is all that i personally would need, for anything i want to do, Yep but thats you. Have you tried opening OpenOffice on a P100 with 64MB RAM? (I did it on a P266 with 128MB and it is painfull)... my Xbox only has 64MB RAM and a P700 (ish) and open office is way to heavy but Abiword or SAIG office flies. However I shouldnt prevent you using OpenOffice.... you should however realise most of it is pointless bloat. But there is nothing wrong with that... all jewelry is pointless bloat...to a point. Sure a watch tells me the time but I can ask someone or look at my phone or even the sun. Sure thats a bit luddite but when arctic, Yin Yeti and I are making our coffee over an open fire and cooking bacon n beans we dont need to know the time to the second.... So if you wanna wear a ring or necklace thats fine, just realise they are decoration or fun items. However be careful of taking it too far into self mutilation... Take for example the elongated necks of some African tribes the bearers of which would be unable to support their neck without them. At some point the jewelry and decoration become a trap. This is largely the position M$ have manufactured. We need MS IIS servers to do Front Page extensions with support for powerpoint and word files? Only we dont really we have just been convinced we do and a few companies feel like if they remove the necklace they cant support their own head anymore. Forunately they are rarely as trapped as they think but still the mental prison is every bit as real a a physcial one. So being a bit incicive ... when you say media player you just mean player right... you have no interest in ripping your Cd's or movies? however at the moment too much development hours is wasted on how many different office applications? all those coders all those hours just trying to make their office package as good as one that already exists? Well not really, its open source so they can copy the parts they like... the secret is to develop somethingf better in some way... set those coders free on to other development work that is desperately needed. like drivers, other applications, games etc. well the problem with drivers is the hardware companies not developers. If the HW companies would release specs then drivers would be written... heck they could even write their own like most companies do for windows... other applications.... but these people are not paid to do this. they are writing some software becuase it interests them to do it so who will tell them put down your new super office package and instead write a game? Those interested in games write games.... etc. but in the end if you have no interest outside of having a stable system which is virus free and secure then Mandrake might be too much for you. Leastways if you are not playing with packages your missing the point a bit... and perhaps Suse or similar might be more appropriate. My experiences are it bores me to death because its stable and does everything you need (except DVD playback) without installing anything, all the choices are made for you. the downside is installing more software and customising it are harder (IMHO) than with mandrake.... However this is why there are different distro's... I dont get any fun out of Suse but I realise it has a purpose for those who just want it to work without understanding why! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkelve Posted July 29, 2004 Report Share Posted July 29, 2004 (edited) Gowator, that was an awesome reply! Just wanted to say how great it is to be on a board where we can actually have these discussions. And nobody looks strange at you when you do ;) But one of the great strengths of Linux is, I guess: it can be what you want it to be B) . Edited July 29, 2004 by Darkelve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xbob Posted July 29, 2004 Report Share Posted July 29, 2004 But one of the great strengths of Linux is, I guess: it can be what you want it to be B) . <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Quoted for truth, and I agree, many good points Gowator. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkelve Posted July 29, 2004 Report Share Posted July 29, 2004 Which reminds me: I had a friend coming over yesterday and showed him around SuSe & KDE. He was quite impressed. But I was surprised about his spontaneous reaction at one time (about the way minimized windows are presented and 'stapled' in the taskbar [kicker] ): "hey, that's much better than Windoze!" (talking about his XP install) I think this helps to demonstrate that NO, a good desktop distro is NOT a total copy of windoze! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bvc Posted July 29, 2004 Report Share Posted July 29, 2004 what is that? 'staple' :unsure: kicker has always resembled the win_taskbars behavior closely :unsure: I haven't read the entire thread but....IMO Desktop Let it rip! Give me all the eyecandy you got.....drag that videocard.....that's what its for! Fun! Enjoyment! Office STOP! Just give me the plain old ugly fast ui! At work we have G5's. They hate OSX in prepress. Dragging everything down with its FX effects when it should be towards rendering. Poor babies :P But seriously its true. Nano (my wife) asked why mac doesn't have a corp or designer's version w/o all that. Good question. In xp you can turn it all off, but I d/k about OSX. I'd hope so. Even still, Jo_Blow doesn't know he can turn it off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkelve Posted July 29, 2004 Report Share Posted July 29, 2004 (edited) staple? Well I couldn't find another way to describe it. I meant how these minimized windows thingies thingies are stacked together (both horizontally and vertically in the taskbar) let it rip! been watching too much BeyBlade, now haven't we :P Edited July 29, 2004 by Darkelve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bvc Posted July 29, 2004 Report Share Posted July 29, 2004 (edited) what's that? :unsure: xp can 'staple' :P Edited July 29, 2004 by bvc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkelve Posted July 29, 2004 Report Share Posted July 29, 2004 (edited) I think he was referring to when in XP you have a bunch of windows, it puts them in one particular tab whereas on my desktop it was all "spread out". Of course my memory of XP is fading... Edited July 29, 2004 by Darkelve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyme Posted July 29, 2004 Report Share Posted July 29, 2004 you can set it not to do that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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