liquidzoo Posted April 28, 2004 Report Share Posted April 28, 2004 Anyway, where are the mods when you need them? I would like to know if they agree with the idea to put a sticky at the top of each subforum that explains the first things about that particular subforum, and that has a FAQ for that subforum integrated. aRTee I kind of like the idea of having a sticky at the top of each forum that points out FAQ's and other information about that forum, but if this is a request for a change to the board, it needs to be brought up in Forum Discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technonoid Posted April 28, 2004 Report Share Posted April 28, 2004 I think we may have gone off course here... A newbie likes attention, and will more willing to work his problem out if we give him/her the attention they have asked for. If we reply with : Look here: blah blah link they could get the feeling that we don't want to help. I've seen it before, but seems to mostly happen with very new users. With like 10 or less post. I'm still up for a newbies dictionary or howto though. But it does not need to be too overwhelming. Just the basics to get'em finding stuff, editing stuff, installing stuff. Which our Faq has a lot of the needed stuff already. Did I get off track ? :unsure: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkelve Posted April 28, 2004 Report Share Posted April 28, 2004 (edited) Background stuff is fine, but not necessarily for the real newbie who just wants to get going, more for the interested newbie who's got his machine sorted but wants to know what is really going on. Sitor, like your sig ;) Anyway, where are the mods when you need them? I would like to know if they agree with the idea to put a sticky at the top of each subforum that explains the first things about that particular subforum, and that has a FAQ for that subforum integrated. Sitor, Darkelve, to see what I mean have a look here (Dutch): http://gathering.tweakers.net/forum/list_topics/23 Note: that is a Dutch subforum where newbie questions get locked immediately, so it's much less friendly to the beginner, but some people really know linux inside out, very interesting stuff. Just check out that and some other forums, at the top of each subforum they have the FAQ and must read info. Just a quick note: If you find any interesting article in Dutch that does not exist in English, send me a PM and I will translate it when I have time. Technonoid, perhaps a kind of 'Survival guide to Linux/Mandrake' would be a good addition? Where we guide users through the most common tasks with explanations and screenshots? Edited April 28, 2004 by Darkelve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aRTee Posted April 28, 2004 Report Share Posted April 28, 2004 LZ, quite right, will bring it up there. Technoid, the newbies goal is likely to get their system going, so if they can find the answer to simple things without even posting it makes things easier - they won't have to wait for an answer. Darkelve, no need for translations, they have few articles, but technically challenging issues sometimes, which are good to learn things... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linux_learner Posted April 28, 2004 Report Share Posted April 28, 2004 since we are talking about newbies, it should contain lots of screen shots, and little to no command line. the command line should be for intermediate to advanced users. IMHO. most newbies are comming from windows, and are used to gui only. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkelve Posted April 28, 2004 Report Share Posted April 28, 2004 (edited) since we are talking about newbies, it should contain lots of screen shots, and little to no command line. the command line should be for intermediate to advanced users. IMHO. most newbies are comming from windows, and are used to gui only. That got me thinking... we got newbies on this board... why don't we ask for their opinion? What are their problems? What do they want? I was just about to make another suggestion when I realized this. Just as an example: is there some way we could PM every person with <10 posts to give their opinion on this matter, or just encourage them to do so in a 'suggestions' thread? Or, if people new to Linux are reading this, in this thread. We are talking a lot about newbie users here, but I wonder what they are thinking about it? Edited April 28, 2004 by Darkelve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aRTee Posted April 28, 2004 Report Share Posted April 28, 2004 linux_learner, I disagree. Screenshots are not cool for modem users, and it should just get them on the right track easier. So, they must know what it is they have to do when someone says: become root. It doesn't matter if they don't know the cli, we will explain it to them. They have already gone through the effort of installing linux in most cases, which means that they are open to new things. There's nothing really scary about the cli, unless you have no clue about it. If you read here about what to type (cd, ls, cat filename, su, etcetc) and what should then happen, why would the cli then still be scary? We must just explain that the cli is nothing to be afraid of and that it is not a DOS prompt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aRTee Posted April 28, 2004 Report Share Posted April 28, 2004 Darkelve, we were typing at the same time there.... :) Don't see if that makes sense, and I don't like the idea of spamming everyone with less than 10 posts - Texstar and Ranger are two people whom you will be sending those messages. Don't. On a side note, as per the advice of LZ, I just started this thread: http://www.mandrakeusers.org/index.php?showtopic=13647 It is not necessary to ask new users, all we have to do is keep track of the issues that keep coming up over and over: su to root as jargon is one thing. Same about partitioning etc - but that's a long story, we should have some links to discussions and an FAQ about that. installation of nvidia drivers (vi, console, etc) etcetc... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technonoid Posted April 28, 2004 Report Share Posted April 28, 2004 (edited) See, I knew we got off track. The original post by VeeDubb, talks about how we go about posting a helpful reply to a new linux user. Having Howtos, Faqs, and Dictionary forums, or links is not the complete answer. And I'm guilty as well... OK Ok, just read your last post aRTee... 3 or so post was made while I got delayed in this post. I see now what your doing... ok... Edited April 28, 2004 by Technonoid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linux_learner Posted April 28, 2004 Report Share Posted April 28, 2004 2 things must be done. 1) the faq's, tips and tricks, and howto's are great resources 2) when a newbie posts, answer the question in a way in which the newbie can comprehend it, and not to overwhelm them. to do both, would be the solution. linux_learner, I disagree. Screenshots are not cool for modem users, and it should just get them on the right track easier. So, they must know what it is they have to do when someone says: become root. It doesn't matter if they don't know the cli, we will explain it to them. thats cool, you can disagree. but how says you need to go to shell, and su? 90% of administration can be done with out the command line. rpmdrake, kpackage, MCC, can all be done with out shell. it automatically promts for the root password. so again, i see command line more as an intermediate/advanced user topic. think of how many windows users know DOS commands. how many know them well. then you have a picture of what i am refering to. most "***** for dummies" books have screen shots all over the place. as far as modem users, 40% of home users, use high speed internet. perhaps we could keep the file size of the pics small. jpg or png. i understand theres now jpg2. there are ways to accomidate both sides. we can do screen shots where the file is small and maybe use like jpg2. so that way the newbie can see what we're talkin about, and it wont take all day on dial-up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liquidzoo Posted April 28, 2004 Report Share Posted April 28, 2004 Just as an example: is there some way we could PM every person with <10 posts to give their opinion on this matter, or just encourage them to do so in a 'suggestions' thread? Or, if people new to Linux are reading this, in this thread. Um... You realize you're talking about 2000+ people, right? :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J++ Posted April 29, 2004 Report Share Posted April 29, 2004 Make installing software as easy as it is in Lindows I would say is a top priority if you want to market mandrake to windows users. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ixthusdan Posted April 29, 2004 Report Share Posted April 29, 2004 SuSE, gentoo, arch, Mandrake, MEPIS, Red Hat, Fedora, all are "easy" to install software. If you mean "click n' run", please look at my post in your other thread for an alternative view of such a "feature". :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huerzo Posted April 29, 2004 Report Share Posted April 29, 2004 (edited) WeeDubb is definitely right. I started my wandering in a Linux world (Mandrake, naturally) in November 2003. And like WeeDubb, also I faced lot of tips like "write chmod --------" or something even more confusing (from a beginner point-of-view). I'm not anymore a beginner, but sometimes I feel sorry that I can't face these things anymore like it did a months ago. Once you've learnt how to fix a thing or understood how stuff works, you'll see it maybe too simple since then. And if somebody tries to ask a tip, you suppose she/he'll have same basic knowledge you have and you throw your hint as short as possible. But on the other hand, these boards would be quite empty, if every message included a detailed description how to do thing x. For example software installation: I remember been confused when I first time installed .rpm-package. OK, it asked should this rpm be installed, but after installation was over, there was no clear sign that installation was completed. Maybe "Installation Complete"-sign would be needed to make newbies and oldbies convinced that software was installed...helpful things aren't always the most painful things to do, often just small signs to user where we're going. But the most sorry thing is, that day by day, I'm (and I guess others also) silently accepting these usability errors as they are, and change my way to think instead of thinking "how this could be done better"...I'm on the guru road, boys and girls. Spooky. :D Edited April 29, 2004 by Huerzo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aRTee Posted April 29, 2004 Report Share Posted April 29, 2004 I think it is important to help people enter the linux world, and the CLI is one important and GOOD point of that world. Keeping people in the GUI side of things means confirming that they are (incorrectly) right in thinking that the GUI is somehow better and more powerful or userfriendly than the CLI. If people want to do everything the GUI way, fine with me. But, the CLI is often the easiest tool to do things, and very very often the easiest way to explain things. Take software installation, someone sees a screenshot of gkrellm, and wants it. CLI: su to root, urpmi gkrellm, insert cd if so requested, then ctrl-d to exit from root, type grkellm GUI: I leave the typing to the GUI fans - it's going to be more ambiguous and longer than the CLI version. My point: we must not hesitate to help people to do things and think IN THE LINUX (unix) WAY. Besides, people who post here are in some way unsure or in trouble. How do you fix things without GUI? Sorry, fixing the Xserver means reading the log - which you have to be root to do. All root jobs except some standard config things are on the cli. In any case, back to the starting post: the point is, we use jargon which we take for granted in many cases, and lots of the jargon is the 'su to root' kind. Besides, generally I find that people don't mind at all to enter a command, it's just that OSNEWS and other sites/stories often promote a very negative view of the command line - since it is 'arcane' and 'not easy to learn', therefor not 'userfriendly' and such. Bull. CLI is easy to learn, but people should just get instructed in the right way. 1) open konsole (rxvt or whatever) 2) type the commands that I give below that is very easy, not hard. To understand what goes on is difficult, but then that is much more difficult with a GUI in most cases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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