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Things we can do to help new linux users


VeeDubb
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Just as an example: is there some way we could PM every person with <10 posts to give their opinion on this matter, or just encourage them to do so in a 'suggestions' thread? Or, if people new to Linux are reading this, in this thread.

Um...

 

You realize you're talking about 2000+ people, right? :lol:

Well, it was just to give an example. I didn't actually want to do it ;)

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aRTee, I see your point. GUI's advantage is you can solve problems yourself. You see the interface, you'll know the tool repertuare and it's easier for a newbie to understand. It's easier to link functions in our minds to graphical symbols than to text. It's also easier to remember graphical icons than longer text phrases. But I'm sure you know this, just thinking aloud.

 

If using console, you'll face "tabula rasa". It will be easier _if_ you know what to do. But newbies - they often don't know what to do. And if they're given a way to do a trick in a console, they often forget it because they don't have ready made links in their minds. If they would use more console, they would bit by bit achieve more experience and those links, and they'll understand how console based commands are working. So I would suggest, that first GUIs, then CLIs. Giraffe doesn't look same from front of it or from backside of it. Even it's still a same giraffe.

 

And when I've tried to help normal users (any OS) to do things more efficiently, they just say they'll anyway use the old way, because they know how it works and they can trust it will work. Like I said, maybe gurus and almost gurus are having too emotional relation to computing, anyway. It's a hobby for us, but for a bigger group of people it's just a way to get things done. Unfortunately, when developing programs this view is too often overlooked...

 

But this is just my opinion. Hopefully you'll understand my point, abstract things are so hard to describe by a foreign language...

 

:juggle:

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I still think alot of peoples heart is in the right place here but they don't quite understand the mentality of the basic windows user. The basic windows user doesn't want to mess around with dependecies configerations etc, doesn't want to type a single command into the console, many just want an alternative to microsoft. UNless the OSS world comes out with something similar to Lindows, Lindows will gobble up these users and lock them in. Good or bad, do you really care about people like that? Personally I'd help develop such an app just to get them off MS.

 

There is no way on this earth a basic windows user could use apt-get rpmdrake etc, they'd give up pretty quickly. I admit at first sight mandrake appears to have a cracking support community but even that is likely to sway the windows user who really doesn't want something that he thinks has gone wrong.

Edited by J++
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J++,

 

good points you made. I tried to make a similar point, but formulated it poorly I suspect. I *am* a windows user. I keep hanging on, following the development of Linux and browsing Linux/FLOSS forums. I do not consider myself to be a newbie, nor a geek, but more of a 'power user'. 'Even' to me, some of the FAQ's seem to complex or intimidating.

 

(Actually, I am on the brink of really starting to use Linux, but that took almost 2 years to get me convinced and going for it... imagine that.)

 

We should recognize that users who are looking into Linux and trying it, have already made a considerable amount of effort. Experienced Linux users can download and burn new ISO's with their fingers in their nose. For 'newbie' users, this process could very well be plain hell and/or utterly fail. E.g. first time I downloaded an ISO, I made 2 coasters by just 'copying' the contents to the CD instead of burning an image. If it wasn't for the instructions with Nero on distrowatch.com, I probably never would have succeeded and possibly given up.

 

And then it only just begins! Solving hardware problems, installing programs, changing settings, ... you could argue this is all very intuitive, but it often is not.

 

E.g. when I have a folder with 200 pictures, I select them all and double-click or 'open', do I really expect to have 200 different windows to pop up? Or do I want a default image viewer to handle them all inside its own main window? Or do I want a box to popup, asking 'you are about to open 200 seperate windows, are you sure you want to do this, or would you like to open it in just one?'

 

If I want to install something, would I prefer to click on a button, or do I want to 'su' & 'rpm -ivh mozillafirebird-xxxxxxx-i568.rpm''?

 

If I want to copy a background I downloaded to my screenshots folder (assuming I already know it is in /usr/share/wallpaper/), do I realize it does not work because I have to be root to do that? Same for when I want to change an icon on my desktop?

 

Wizards work because they allow new users to complete relatively complicated tasks step-by-step with a good amount of success and predictability. Of course it is not as flexible as CLI. But the user will be able to succesfully complete his/her effort. One of the best illustrations for this is the 'link' Wizard in Xandros, where they ask you what you want to do: put a linkicon on your desktop referring to a program, to a folder, to a location, ... . And then give you different possibilities to choose from.

 

So would I prefer to go navigating through KDE control center, or would I prefer a 'desktop setup Wizard', which asks me some questions about what background to use, what window decoration, what icons, what fonts & colors, etc.

 

If I can get my sound working by clicking a button, would I prefer that over downloading, compiling and installing a source RPM?

 

Of course as a user I will want the most swift, practical and painless method of doing things. And here we are discussing how every new user will have to learn the CLI because it is so much better and practical.

 

Do not get me wrong, I have got nothing against CLI, but it should be a choice for the user himself to make. And from what I gather, most all persons coming from Windows (or not) prefer the graphical way to do things, so it makes sense to me to provide them with the help for that.

Edited by Darkelve
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Another point is for some of the FAQ's permanant graphics would really help... and HOWTO's.

Not in every case but I know I went looking for some I posted cos I messed my server up then found they arent there cos I linked them from ... you guessed it my messed up server I wanted to find them to fix ....

 

Anyway sometimes a picture is worth a 1000 words, specially sometimes for network setups etc. many is the time I tried resporting to asci art to describe someones NW setup ..... so perhaps a few examples in a FAQ section then you can ask is it like a,b or c etc.

 

(of course just FAQ team able to add these but everyone able to link to them ?)

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another idea is to encourage (on this read once page) the use of descriptive help levels in sigs.

 

We all know number of penguins has no corrlelation with knowledge but a few choices like "total noobie" or "comfortable in vi" etc. from a list of suggestions might help.

Its really misex, take someone coming from BSD, they might know lots of good stuff but not know about something MDK specific or someone from Solaris wouldnt understand grub/lilo etc.

 

The more you know the general area of knowledge the briefer the answer is.

 

Sometomes Im put off helping someone becuase I dont have time for a step by step ... but they might not NEED a step by step, just pointing to a mandrake tool that might help.

 

If the automatic pickup of acronyms COULD be done that would be fantastic ... CLI -> FAQ .... etc. Very cool idea that one.

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Man, it's true. I remember complaining about our cryptic language (windex has it too!) and now I look at my posts to help people, and I have journeyed into obscurity!!! Help!!!! :joker:

 

It's always about the acronyms. I do it to RadioEar, but he looks at me real funny and says "What are you saying?" So, a list of the 50 most used acronyms would be helpful.

You should see the stare-into-space look on my brothers face when I say 'You should learn programming!' HaHa HoHo HeHe.

 

 

So... things like 'su to root' should be explained, just for starters. Otherwise this forum is no better the so-called education television.

Edited by RadioEar
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My opinion on CLI vs. GUI:

 

I do not like CLI. If I can avoid it, I will. I found out myself a lot of stuff to be done with computers, and I do think I know much more then the average user. However if I take a home movie via Firewire and edit the video in Kino, it does not allow me to create a DVD structure to burn the movie to DVD (yet). I know you can create that structure with command line commands. But I don't take the time to learn how to do it (which commands with what parameters, what is the required structure that will work on my DVD player,...). :screwy: So sorry, but for that task I boot into Windoze :devil: (untill the ability is added to Kino or K3B whichever will be the first).

 

Bottomline, I don't think CLI is scary (however a lot of newbies will probably think it is), and there are some things for which I prefer to use CLI (adding urpmi sources for instance), but I strongly prefer GUI because it is just way faster to find out how to do it.

 

aRTee does have a point that explaining the CLI way is way easier then the GUI way though. On the other hand if the response is immediately the CLI way without even a mention that a GUI way will exist as well, you might put of the people in doubt. That might mean another user not converted to "the scary" Linux and sticking to the well known Windoze. :angry: So if you use CLI as a solution, in my opinion you should add that it is possible with GUI as well but that that would take you much more time to explain, so that you ask him to use CLI first and if that scares him, he can still ask for the GUI way.

 

That's my view.

 

Ciao,

 

Sitor

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Those who want a click n run etc. should use Lindows or whatever the new name is. Theres nothing wrong with it except its not (all) FLOSS .. and its made so you wont learn.

 

Making an icon : sudo urpmi somepackage.rpm etc. is not really gettnig anywhere because there are 1001 options etc.

 

thats why the CLI is more flexible.

Learning

 

urpmi <package> installs that package is generally more useful.

 

More importantly mostly I dont mind helping someone but verbosely describing how to add a source in the GUI or writing the CLI is no contest... in the end the aim is to get it working and the CLI is more efficient.

 

Soem of the HOWTO's can go through more detailed GUI stuff but then they will need graphics. As noted lets not forget modem users so clickable graphics.

 

 

Id like to provide the Windows user help too but sometimes its too long...

also the CLI version is more or less the same across versions whereas the wizards particualrly are not.

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One thing I think we should keep in mind: are we aiming for the general windows user, or the general windows user who wants to learn and use linux.

 

These are 2 quite different profiles.

 

Read my switchsuccess story, and learning linux (both linked at the top of each page on my site) -- I don't think we should be wasting time to make all windows users feel at home when the next that happens is that they find linux is not the same as windows, and even though we tell them they can do the same things, they will have to adapt -- and due to not finding their happiness they switch back to windows.

 

So my point is, give energy into helping those out who are ready for linux. Not willing to adapt == not ready.

 

And sorry, just read all the advice that gets given, in most cases a single line with a command already does the trick. The CLI is that good, but agreed, that far away for the average windows user. We can keep it there, or bring it closer.

 

Just read some advice, and decide if we should do something to make it clearer how the can follow the advice, or try to give advice on how to do things with a GUI.... whenever available, and as far as we know how the GUIs work (Gowator, got you covered there... see it is easy to agree ;) )

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Yep the thing is Lindows users will never realise the potential of Linux (unless they use something else) and that might be fine for some people BUT for those wanting to learn the CLI is really unavoidable....

 

Im all for some detailed HOWTO's and these can have the GUI way but they will need redoing for each version (more or less) whereas su to root and urmpi I hope won't.

 

Im not against Lindows or Apple for those who dontwanna learn ... and even those who like apple cos of the style :D but like aRTee says they are 2 different types of potential user.

 

Personally Id prefer they use Lindows or Mac becuase in the end I beleive any choice is better than no choice and it also helps FLOSS eventually by making it a REAL choice to make drivers other than WinBlows.

 

But those not willing to adapt... will never be happy... even if Linux is EASIER than Windows because it will never be Windows (thank goodness) some people cant adapt to userland OS-X becuase they are too indoctrinated so root-land unix is never going to make em happy.

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Here's an idea:

 

since the distinction between GUI and CLI is generally pretty clear, would it make sense to categorize, where possible, these "Howto's" into 2 sections:

 

- graphical approach

- command line approach

 

That way the user can choose which one, and if one fails s/he can try the other if they feel up to it.

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Darkelve, good thinking.

 

This way, it is shown that there is a nice graphical way, but for those who don't scare easily and who are open to it, there is the CLI method.

It might even show what gaps are left either way...

 

e.g. what GUI tools are needed yet or what CLI-approaches would be nice as a replacement to GUI.

 

 

Like: how to play music?

 

GUI: Xmms

 

CLI:

mpg123 with ncurses (some sort of ascii based menu?)

 

I, for instance, never knew you could have an mp3 player with a simple ascii menu in CLI.

Edited by Darkelve
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One thing I think we should keep in mind: are we aiming for the general windows user, or the general windows user who wants to learn and use linux.

 

If mandrake wants to make money (i know that's not its primary aim) it should target novice windows users. If it's been doing the above all along I'm not surprised it almost went bankrupt, there just aren't many of those 'general windows' users out there imo.

 

If no-one caters for those users, none of us have any right to complain about Lindows, as it's clearly filling a niche in the market, one which we refuse to fill.

Edited by J++
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