ac_dispatcher Posted December 24, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 24, 2003 (edited) Wow did I open a can of worms or what? :D Good to see the wide rage of ideas and thoughts on Lindows Edited December 24, 2003 by ac_dispatcher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ac_dispatcher Posted December 27, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 27, 2003 Have to stir it up again but, I was just reading some sites about viruses. They had mentioned that we may see more Linux viri soon do it its greater use. I tend to disagree. My main thought was when Im on my computer Im not the su or root. Don't think to much damage to my system should take place as a normal user. Maybe my /home will get messed but who cares? But Lindows ran as a newbie and as root may be an exploit that social engineers could take advantage off. Man that could be some real bad FUD for Linux then Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gowator Posted December 27, 2003 Report Share Posted December 27, 2003 tyme: hehe - I agree with aRTee that we are hardly going to disagree over this or start flaming each other. I have a lot of respect for aRTee so its not hapening <G> However the important thing for people to realise is I actually thought the same as aRTee until I tried it. Now I do think its something which my mum could use just as easily as XP or OS-X. The autodetection and config are WAY ahead of Mandrake wheras the tunability and customisability are way down. To me its like discussing a pickup or a minature towncar. If you wanna lug 3 tons of goods around then take the pickup but don't expect the same milage as the town car or the same parking spaces to fit etc. Mandrake is more akin to XP whereas Lindows is more akin to Win98. Its not simple obviously but to me its horses for courses. To me a big difference is that once you want to hit the consumer masses then a customisable flexible system like Mandrake isn't good enough and you have to tie it down, then you end up with Lindows. I don't really see the two as competing... OK perhaps on my laptop but not in a server environment or mixed server/workstation environment. If mandrake continues with its propreitry (if opensource) wizrds then it will turn into a distro like Lindows except without the business model which is making Lindows a financial winner. Personally I prefer the Mandrake ethics BUT they aren't working, Mandrake has been bankrupt for a year and it appears their road back is removing the source code or linuxconf and trapping people into their distro. The thing about Lindows is the FUD by purists.... However mostly its just repeated stuff like theirs no source code. But there is ... However I used to think about it like aRTeee does until I tried it and I really thing the onl way aRTee (or me) will change out opinions is by actually trying it. I misjudged it, I listened to the Fud but tin the end it was just FUD and in the end it works better and faster than mandrake on my Laptop.... I have the source, etc. etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aRTee Posted December 28, 2003 Report Share Posted December 28, 2003 Tyme, see your point. The discussion was actually more or less at an end, with all discussion partners blue in the face already... ac_dispatcher: linux email is intrinsicly safe® than windows mail. Running as root is beside that point, since as root you can (and sometimes must) use email; this is quite common on unix too. The point is that on linux the attachments cannot be executed automatically (except through bugs; not in normal use as is the case with windows). The only menace that the root-using lindows user (apparently it is quite easy to set things up so that you don't run as root) will/may pose eventually is that they are so computer unsavvy that they can be lured into things like: Hey this is a cool attachment! To see all coolness, just save it and then do:sh attachment.script really! it is so cool!! And true, at some point someone somewhere will fall for it. Compared to the automatic executing of attachements on windows, I somehow doubt that this will really dent the reputation of linux. Don't forget: on linux, there are at least 3 major and loads of minor mailreaders (evolution, kmail, mozilla mail, opera mail, etcetc) -- it is linux combined with intrinsic 'design for security' and diversity of programs and versions that will reduce any possible escalation of viruses. With windows, often the whole version is affected, or even several versions (IE up to version 5.5 for instance, or: all versions of WinNT, including 2k, XP and 2K3). With linux, things are more often very particular, since the problems are in bug exploits that sometimes only work in special cases: linux kernel 2.4.x combined with ssh x.x .... Gowator, I did some more thinking; I see your point, as to the merits of Lindows -- these are technical points, and in terms of hardware support there is certainly work for Mandrake to catch up. I don't think I've fallen for any FUD; my points still stand that there is a larger risk attached to having lindows as Linux market leader. The only reason why they will never be that, is that I'm not the only one thinking the way I think... Lastly, I'd like to take back/alter the statement that I will never have lindows running on any of my systems. I will never have lindows running on any of my systems, unless it is the only distro running properly even though they are not using proprietary lindows only drivers (in which case I wouldn't have bought the hardware in the first place). But it still doesn't mean I have to try Lindows to see what is true or not; fact is that my systems run properly and are well maintained. There is nothing to convince me of on the side of the actualy technical functionality of Lindows, which I believe from you is very good. My hesitation is about the company and license (not that the source is not available, but that it is not completely GPL), the powerplay that could result, the lock-in, etc. This has nothing to do with FUD, but with logic reasoning. But then again, logic reasoning also agrees with Darkelve's quote that lindows will find its own niche. To complete the circle, that lindows become/stay a niche product also has to do with threads like this and people like me who prefer to see lindows as a niche product and not the leading linux distro. And as said before, the hardware support is only one part of the equation; what is needed is preinstalled preconfigged systems straight from the store. (I've done a lot of thinking, and I think I know enough now to do it; have to get in touch with the cheapest computer parts reseller here and see if we can make a deal...) Hardware support is a non-issue if you can determine exactly what goes into the home desktop machine. With a preconfigged machine, the only difference to the user is the wm/de: kde or gnome (or...), the system below doesn't (and shouldn't) matter. If mandrake continues with its propreitry (if opensource) wizrds then it will turn into a distro like Lindows except without the business model which is making Lindows a financial winner. Personally I prefer the Mandrake ethics BUT they aren't working, Mandrake has been bankrupt for a year and it appears their road back is removing the source code or linuxconf and trapping people into their distro. Nonsense, the wizards should work without any docs, noone would want to read them. If you know so much that you would understand the docs and/or all options that could also be given, you can do without the wizards; the cli commands are really not so complicated, except for foreigners from windowsguiland... Simplicity is the key, since if you really include all options people start telling you (mandrake) that things are still too complicated. BTW Since when is Mandrake trapping people into their distro? Especially if you can get Mandrake for free, it hardly seems a trap. I think they weren't bankrupt, they filed for chapter11 protection (well, French equivalent), which means they cannot go bankrupt. Come on Steve! Stop this fud! Seriously, I think Mandrake is actually in a very nice position right now: OEM deals, shuttle, HP, RH getting of the home desktop, people not happy with RH, nor FC1, then incertainty about SUSE within Novell who also owns Ximian; Mandrake is the only stable distro of the large ones, except for their chapter 11 story which I think will soon end, and which I fear will be succeeded with a buyout by HP or so... In any case, 2004 is looking good for Mandrake imho. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ac_dispatcher Posted December 28, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 28, 2003 Your right about executing the script. Never thought about it that way. Question: Would you also have to download the file and: chmod +x [file] to make it executable? That would make it: Download & save file chmod +x [file] ./[file] to deliver the virus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aRTee Posted December 28, 2003 Report Share Posted December 28, 2003 (edited) Nope, if you run: sh script it doesn't have to be executable. [robert@zurich bin]$ cat >> test echo "this is a test" [robert@zurich bin]$ sh test this is a test [robert@zurich bin]$ ll test -rw-r--r-- 1 robert robert 23 Dec 28 14:41 test Edited December 28, 2003 by aRTee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNFERiON Posted December 28, 2003 Report Share Posted December 28, 2003 I've tried LindowsOS for about 10 minutes before I knew it was total crap. It amazed me already that it fitted on only 1 CD, but then when it installed it all became clear to me, you need to pay for all the freaking packages for LindowsOS. And I thought that it could handle Windows apps, but how the f*ck can it do that if it doesn't even recongnize .exe files So nah, no LindowsOS for me. I'll just stick to Mandrake 9.2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gowator Posted December 29, 2003 Report Share Posted December 29, 2003 aRTee, I don't really want it to be the main distro numbers wise either BUT the people who don't wanna learn are the majority not minority.... a sad but true fact. This being the case then its down to trying to educate people as to why drivers should be opensource in the first place.... This comes down as you are always pointing out in buying peripherals with opensource drivers. Its the only way to convince suppliers... I made a thread before (but you were busy getting married :D) about the difference between those who actually make devices that accidentally work under linux becuase they use standards like USB mass sotorage and those who actually release the spec and even write the drivers.... Quite a few people actually didn't care so long as it works but this is often the budget manufactuerers who copy other technology and hence it kinda works under linux becuase they copied an adaptec or 3com or other standard. (When you have some time you can help me get my DVD +r working in Mandrake though :D) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkelve Posted December 29, 2003 Report Share Posted December 29, 2003 aRTee,I don't really want it to be the main distro numbers wise either BUT the people who don't wanna learn are the majority not minority.... a sad but true fact. This being the case then its down to trying to educate people as to why drivers should be opensource in the first place.... A lot of the company's credibility actually comes from marketing (sad, yes) and support (good). It's also sad when you see how professional Lindows is in some areas but people don't take a hint from that, seeing how it is so un-3l33t... instead of realizing and working on their own weak points. As for people not wanting to learn, I think it is often ignorance. I remember when I started with Linux/Mandrake I was like "Whey, cool, look what you can do with it. And this is for free!?". Consumers are sheep some times I guess. There really should be some way to get to these end users and suggesting them to: - learn about security (basic, no firewalling and DMZ :P ) - ask to contribute (remember, contributions are NOT code only, although I've seen people pretend otherwise). About what we can do as well: - Reporting our working hardware to various HW compatibility lists. E.g. I still haven't reported my Trust 710 PowerCam as 'working' to various lists :unsure: - Also, my dad bought an USB stick which said: 'no driver installation needed, works with Windows, MaxOSX, Linux and Unix, in small but readable print on the box! These guys should be given a heads-up (thumbs up?), even if to send a signal their efforts are noticed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkelve Posted December 30, 2003 Report Share Posted December 30, 2003 Found this link: http://www.ofb.biz/modules.php?name=Survey...sults&pollID=53 Maybe this will put aRTee at ease Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aRTee Posted December 30, 2003 Report Share Posted December 30, 2003 Gowator, true, most/average are not willing to put in any effort to learn. But there is nothing against trying to inform them, no? If I try and fail, at least I tried, and no blame lies on my side... On your dvd+drive, does it still not work? I still don't have much time, and no dvd+ drive to check, but I'll have a look... :) Darkelve, agree, people just need to get started. Most will not really want to learn, but some will. For those it is worthwhile to go throught the effort of putting out information (here, my website etcetc). The others, I don't care about much; nice if they use linux since it adds weight on the scale. Hmm, dead weight, isn't there a pun in here somewhere...? :D Anyway, to get to critical mass, it is important to get those on board who will help spread linux. And for the best way to spread, we need to make sure that: people buy hardware that is supported, so it pays off to make hardware supported, if possible through open source drivers (even windows users should be motivated to buy products that also work with linux, to keep their options open -- they may want to try linux in the next 1 or 2 years, and it would be stupid to be locked into windows due to bad hardware choices -- we have to get all computer enthusiasts on our side, even those who are still on windows for whatever reasons) people help out others people send in bugreports For all of these, people are needed who do put in more/some effort. Those who will (in time) just go out and buy an IBM/Dell/HP machine preloaded are not the ones I put in the effort for, because the moment IBM/Dell/HP sell preloaded machines I consider that my work is done. (My goals are quite clear to me, see my website if you're interested. Basically, I just want hardware and software support -- including on things I would like to own in due time, like a laptop. Quite selfish indeed, just like Linus who just wanted unix at home..) Darkelve, thanks for the link. I am at ease, but anyway :D To put things in perspective, this says more about who reads OfB than anything else.... :) Also, in the case of hardware that has Linux mentioned on the box, send an email to the manufacturer, that that was the reason you bought their product over a competitors product. I did so a number of times in the case of well supported products (epson, they even have a linux version of their scanner program). They actually got back to me saying they appreciated the feedback. And yes, the supported hardware pages should be updated. This is something that I think Mandrake should really put more effort into. BTW Darkelve, may I suggest this site for your webcam: http://www.qbik.ch/usb/devices/ (well, assuming it is a usbcam) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkelve Posted December 30, 2003 Report Share Posted December 30, 2003 aRTee, thanks for the Linux. This week I will both report my working usb cam and send a mail to the company from the USB memory stick. As for HW compatibility lists, Mandrakes is quite good just not updated enough I think. SuSe is also good, less entries but it seems more recent. But, where's Debian??? Couldn't find a list. Maybe they just presuppose that all HW will work with it ;) Red Hat's list is a waste. Could not find most of my hardware, even though it should be in there. Was in both other lists. My ranking: 1. SuSe's list 2. Mandrakes list 3. Red Hat's list Also, how goes your quest to help Linux get pre-loaded? Good luck on that! O, and here's another poll: http://www.tryoutlinux.com/ ... and of course, this poll doesn't lie. Or does it? (actually this I don't like. Bad Lindows!) Oh boy, did I drift *way* off-topic here... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aRTee Posted December 30, 2003 Report Share Posted December 30, 2003 (edited) Darkelve, thanks for the info on the hw lists, didn't know that RH list was even worse than Mandrakes... :lol: Also thanks for that link...Lots of fun on that page: did you know this fun fact: LindowsOS, the most popular version of Linux for use on desktop computers. Well, it's true according to their survey. :D Ah well... Oh, some other interesting news: TryOutLinux.com is sponsored by Lindows.com. I just had a look at the link at the bottom, called "Which Linux would be best for me?" : http://www.tryoutlinux.com/best.html Just read it and get ready to really not like Lindows. My beef, now that we are back on things that are wrong with Lindows (as a company, in terms of marketing etcetc): LindowsOS - The easiest-to-use and most full-featured Linux for Desktop/Laptop Computing Lindows.com (the makers of LindowsOS) focuses exclusively on Linux for desktop and laptop use, and their exclusive attention to the desktop really shows in the polish and stability of this OS. LindowsOS is your best choice if you're looking for a desktop Linux that is extremely easy to install and use, yet packed with features just for desktop/laptop users. If you're familiar with Microsoft Windows, you'll feel right at home using LindowsOS. Other unique features: Most popular Linux for desktop/laptop use. No Linux knowledge or experience needed to install or use. Familiar look that will feel comfortable for Microsoft Windows users on the surface, but full-powered Linux "under the hood." Exclusive CNR Technology (click-n-run) makes installing new Linux software one-click easy. Installs in under 10 minutes or comes pre-installed on several computers. Offers built-in virus protection and web filtering. Comes with a complete MS Office file-compatible office suite. Specialized Laptop Edition available for advanced power management and wifi. Developer Edition for Linux experts who are looking for a polished desktop Linux. Since when is Lindows more popular than SUSE, Mandrake, RH, etc for desktop/laptop use? I see no proof, just blanket statements. IMHO, this is a lie. Built in virus protection, instead of educating users as to why this is not necessary on linux: lie 2. MSOffice complete file compatibility? Lie 3. Now have a look on what they write on Mandrake (I will not mention what they write about RH/SUSE since I don't know enough about those, but my guess is they are probably equally off the mark): Mandrake - Technical Desktop Linux, excellent for Engineers and Developers This is a popular choice for more technical desktop users. Programmers and software engineers will like the multitude of configuration options of Mandrake. Notable features: Extensive installation routine for advanced computer users, drive partitioning, etc. Top-level security. Available in several languages. 100% Open Source. ?? Extensive installation routing for advanced computer users? Ah well, maybe compared to lindows, so they may have a point. But: for more technical desktop users? Of the main linux distros, Mandrake is the most aiming for the average desktop user. In any case, no real lies here, just focus away to make mdk look less attractive. Waitaminute: 100% open source? Yes, the download edition. But then they compare with the power pack, and that one is not 100% open source. Quite incorrect. Then: Licensing: per user on Mandrake. But with 100% open source, this is not possible. Ease of Installing New Software Programs: 1 star for Mandrake. With urpmi /RPMDrake, I think they are quite bending the truth here. Lie #4. Active User "community" (forums, chat rooms, etc) : 5 stars for lindows, 3 for Mandrake. Well, lie #5. BTW, 3 stars for winXP?? Exclusive focus by company on Desktop use: ok, why would this be a good thing? Marketing. Close to getting an "aRTee lie#" rating but just not close enough... CNR Technology (Click and run hundreds of software programs from the web-based CNR Warehouse with just one mouse click.) Ok, lie #6. I know, it's called urpmi on mandrake, but the same thing from a functional viewpoint. This lie is debatable, but not much.... Recognizes Microsoft Formats (.xls, .doc, etc.) Lie #7. Mandrake does recognize those formats. Just click the files in konqueror and they open in OOo. Built-in Audio Tutorials Hmmm, what does that mean? I thought that users wouldn't need that? Ah well... Modern Web Browsing using Tabs Lie # 8 Konqueror does tabs fine, as does mozilla. Plug-N-Play Auto Detect USB and Firewire Devices such as digital cameras, flash memory, scanners, mp3 players, etc. Lie #9 Mandrake automatically mounted the usb external hd and flash card reader that I connected. Same for my webcam and scanner. Ok, the scanner I had to setup. Crisp, clear, shadow-free, anti-aliased fonts Lie #10 Mandrake has perfectly functional anti-aliased fonts, no problems there. Multi-network IM support for Yahoo!, MSN, and AOL Possibly lie #11 Ok, I'm not into instant messaging, but doesn't gaim do all these? Real Audio & Video Support Included Java Support Included Flash Support Included Auto Clock Syncing via Internet On all the above Mandrake gets a NO, but afaik this is included in the powerpack. Auto-correct Journaling File System Lie # somany. Proprietary Licensed Bitstream Fonts Included Ok, as if it matters... Built-in Disk Defragmenting. (Always keep disk defragmented on the fly.) ?? well, no lie, but more likely FUD. Then it ends with: * The above comparisons are with the default installation of these products based on our testing. We basically install the OS with the default settings, then perform the tests. An asterisk (*) indicates the OS has limited functionality or can be added, but with some degree of difficulty for a novice user. TryOutLinux.com is for those interested in trying Linux for the first time, and these users won't know how to install new software, change complicated settings, etc. Again, FUD. They make it seem complicated that you can choose to turn on internet time keeping on Mandrake. It is just a question, answering yes or no will both lead to a well installed system. So, basically, LindowsOS IS competing with other linux distros, and they are full of fud about it. Sure, they have windows also in that list, but if they were really just competing with MS, they wouldn't need to put SUSE as a server OS, now would they? BTW, SUSE has done most on funding KDE as far as I know. Quite ironic that Lindows is using that and only that... BTW, check this page too: http://www.tryoutlinux.com/try.html They link to froogle.google for RH, Mdk and SUSE, then state this: I thought Linux was Free? Why do these programs cost money? There are several "free" open source versions of Linux, but we recommend you pay the low and very reasonable fees these commercial vendors charge in order to receive their full packaging, support, and to make sure you get the latest software. Bollocks. To try out linux, people should go get a live cd, then maybe a download edition without spending (and starting to get locked in), then if (and only if) satisfied, spend money. But for people looking to try out linux without losing windows they have this page: http://www.tryoutlinux.com/windows.html which fails to mention live cds at all. FUD/Lie number somany. It's really not funny anymore. Granted, that site looks slick. The marketing talk is smooth. And quite disgusting. Sorry about this rant and getting back on-topic after straying so nicely. Hadn't seen this one page, but it is so full of fud, half-truths and lies it is just not funny. If you're going to say: this is not the lindows website, I can only respond: they are sponsoring it and putting it under a different name, so they can't be sued. Really, for all those that still think I'm exaggerating in my thinking that lindows with a big linux marketshare would be a bad thing: please, read again and do a lot of good hard thinking. I still agree with those who use lindows to solve their hardware problems (temporarily!), but the company and methods are NOT OK. The fact that they play nice with the FLOSS community on occasions and contribute now and then DOES NOT make Lindows an OK company. They are into spreading FUD and Lies about other linuxes (and their own in a positive way)... Edited December 30, 2003 by aRTee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gowator Posted January 27, 2004 Report Share Posted January 27, 2004 Oh, some other interesting news:TryOutLinux.com is sponsored by Lindows.com. I just had a look at the link at the bottom, called "Which Linux would be best for me?" : http://www.tryoutlinux.com/best.html Just read it and get ready to really not like Lindows. My beef, now that we are back on things that are wrong with Lindows (as a company, in terms of marketing etcetc): LindowsOS - The easiest-to-use and most full-featured Linux for Desktop/Laptop Computing Well from a sheep like consumer point of view then it possibly is..... Lindows.com (the makers of LindowsOS) focuses exclusively on Linux for desktop and laptop use, and their exclusive attention to the desktop really shows in the polish and stability of this OS. LindowsOS is your best choice if you're looking for a desktop Linux that is extremely easy to install and use, yet packed with features just for desktop/laptop users. If you're familiar with Microsoft Windows, you'll feel right at home using LindowsOS. Other unique features:Most popular Linux for desktop/laptop use. No Linux knowledge or experience needed to install or use. Familiar look that will feel comfortable for Microsoft Windows users on the surface, but full-powered Linux "under the hood." Exclusive CNR Technology (click-n-run) makes installing new Linux software one-click easy. Installs in under 10 minutes or comes pre-installed on several computers. Offers built-in virus protection and web filtering. Comes with a complete MS Office file-compatible office suite. Specialized Laptop Edition available for advanced power management and wifi. Developer Edition for Linux experts who are looking for a polished desktop Linux. OK CLick n run 1st.... Everything works in click n run. No further configuation is necassary..... In other words when you install a package it will work immediately. This isn't true of urpmi or apt because they have more choice...... and it simply isn't possible for urpmi or apt to cover everything without installation. You are severely limited to your choices in click n run but the stuff that is in it does work..... and is integrated. This is a choice for a user.... do you want more choice or do you just want something to work??? 90% of the masses unfortunately prefer the latter.... I happen to prefer the former as do many but this isn't the masses. Its the old pizza analogy..... You can get one delivered or you can get the pizza kit with pizza dough and toppings. Ultimately the homemade one will be better and fresher .... But so many people can't be bothered..... and prefer to have it delivered in a box. Far more people have pizza delivered than make it themselves everyday, its just a sad fact of life. Same goes for bread or pasta or whatever, its actually not that hard to make your own BUT 90% of people don't. Mandrake is the bread kit containing the yeast and flour and bicarbonate, no salt but you can easiliy get that form common sources ..... Lindows is the shrink wrapped white sliced loaf. LFS is the wheat seeds and yeast culture ... etc. Since when is Lindows more popular than SUSE, Mandrake, RH, etc for desktop/laptop use? I see no proof, just blanket statements. IMHO, this is a lie. I agree, this is marketing drivel..... unfortunately its the marketing drivel that the sliced loaf buyers listen to. Built in virus protection, instead of educating users as to why this is not necessary on linux: lie 2. Well yea and no.... Its irresponsible to not virus check your mail and forward it to others using WinBlows or downlad it onto a Winblows filesystem you are connected to. MSOffice complete file compatibility? Lie 3. Well again, excusing Access..... Its as compatible as MS is with MS across versions..... Now have a look on what they write on Mandrake (I will not mention what they write about RH/SUSE since I don't know enough about those, but my guess is they are probably equally off the mark):Mandrake - Technical Desktop Linux, excellent for Engineers and Developers This is a popular choice for more technical desktop users. Programmers and software engineers will like the multitude of configuration options of Mandrake. Notable features: Extensive installation routine for advanced computer users, drive partitioning, etc. Top-level security. Available in several languages. 100% Open Source. Well I think you cover it below Extensive installation routing for advanced computer users?Ah well, maybe compared to lindows, so they may have a point. But: for more technical desktop users? Yep, this is aimed at people who are sheep. Don't understand disk partitioning and have no intention of ever learning anything except typing a letter !!!! Of the main linux distros, Mandrake is the most aiming for the average desktop user. In any case, no real lies here, just focus away to make mdk look less attractive. Waitaminute: 100% open source? Yes, the download edition. But then they compare with the power pack, and that one is not 100% open source. Quite incorrect. Yep anyone who can install Mandrake counts as an intermediate user by Lindows standards !!!! Then:Licensing: per user on Mandrake. But with 100% open source, this is not possible. Ease of Installing New Software Programs: 1 star for Mandrake. With urpmi /RPMDrake, I think they are quite bending the truth here. Lie #4. Yep well compared to RH I guess Mandrake gets 2-3 stars..... but it isn't anywhere as simple as click n run..... Do you want to add a shortcut to your desktop, do you want to run the program now... etc... Active User "community" (forums, chat rooms, etc) : 5 stars for lindows, 3 for Mandrake. Well, lie #5. BTW, 3 stars for winXP?? Well excluding this forum and a couple of french ones Id say the support aspect of Lindows forums is way above my last attempt at Mandrake Club which is the comparison..... Exclusive focus by company on Desktop use: ok, why would this be a good thing? Marketing.Close to getting an "aRTee lie#" rating but just not close enough... Thats a whole other issue !!!! For me and you its a bad thing for the sheep its a good thing. CNR Technology (Click and run hundreds of software programs from the web-based CNR Warehouse with just one mouse click.)Ok, lie #6. I know, it's called urpmi on mandrake, but the same thing from a functional viewpoint. This lie is debatable, but not much.... Click n run is WAY beyond urpmi or apt. Its at a level of Apple. To me the leage table goes in reverse order..... rpm->urpmi->apt->click n run Recognizes Microsoft Formats (.xls, .doc, etc.)Lie #7. Mandrake does recognize those formats. Just click the files in konqueror and they open in OOo. Does it actually say Mandrake doesn't ???? Built-in Audio TutorialsHmmm, what does that mean? I thought that users wouldn't need that? Ah well... Havn't tried them but I expect they are at a sheep level...... Modern Web Browsing using TabsLie # 8 Konqueror does tabs fine, as does mozilla. Well, not the 9.2 version of konqueror.... p.s. It does use konqueror, just a later version which I admit is VERY NICE :D Plug-N-Play Auto Detect USB and Firewire Devices such as digital cameras, flash memory, scanners, mp3 players, etc.Lie #9 Mandrake automatically mounted the usb external hd and flash card reader that I connected. Same for my webcam and scanner. Ok, the scanner I had to setup. Yep, so how about your winmodem ??? or winprinter ?? or DVD playback.... Crisp, clear, shadow-free, anti-aliased fontsLie #10 Mandrake has perfectly functional anti-aliased fonts, no problems there. Not so nice, Lindows paid for the real fonts.... of course you can get em from PLF but the difference is they are SUPPORTED in Lindows for the sheep. Multi-network IM support for Yahoo!, MSN, and AOL Possibly lie #11 Ok, I'm not into instant messaging, but doesn't gaim do all these? Again, its the level of intergration....... Real Audio & Video Support IncludedJava Support Included Flash Support Included Auto Clock Syncing via Internet On all the above Mandrake gets a NO, but afaik this is included in the powerpack. Auto-correct Journaling File System Lie # somany. Proprietary Licensed Bitstream Fonts Included Ok, as if it matters... Built-in Disk Defragmenting. (Always keep disk defragmented on the fly.) ?? well, no lie, but more likely FUD. Then it ends with: * The above comparisons are with the default installation of these products based on our testing. We basically install the OS with the default settings, then perform the tests. An asterisk (*) indicates the OS has limited functionality or can be added, but with some degree of difficulty for a novice user. TryOutLinux.com is for those interested in trying Linux for the first time, and these users won't know how to install new software, change complicated settings, etc. Again, FUD. They make it seem complicated that you can choose to turn on internet time keeping on Mandrake. It is just a question, answering yes or no will both lead to a well installed system. Well really its an issue of WHO.... a just click proceed Mandy doesn't have these whereas a just click procede (like theres any other way in Lindows) does. So, basically, LindowsOS IS competing with other linux distros, and they are full of fud about it. Sure, they have windows also in that list, but if they were really just competing with MS, they wouldn't need to put SUSE as a server OS, now would they? BTW, SUSE has done most on funding KDE as far as I know. Quite ironic that Lindows is using that and only that... Basically they are competing for the sheep!!!! Like people who buy macs they just expect it to work..... easier than Windows and Lindows has gone a long way in providing what these people want. Suse and Mandrake have had a long time to make their system work and be microsoft free. IMHO for the majority of people more people will never go back after Lindows (percentage wise) or run dual boot than with Mandrake or Suse. BTW, check this page too:http://www.tryoutlinux.com/try.html They link to froogle.google for RH, Mdk and SUSE, then state this: I thought Linux was Free? Why do these programs cost money? There are several "free" open source versions of Linux, but we recommend you pay the low and very reasonable fees these commercial vendors charge in order to receive their full packaging, support, and to make sure you get the latest software. Bollocks. To try out linux, people should go get a live cd, then maybe a download edition without spending (and starting to get locked in), then if (and only if) satisfied, spend money. It still comes back to the sheep mentality..... Im not really a big fan of trying out on a trail live basis becuase many people will keep going back to Windows.... But for people looking to try out linux without losing windows they have this page:http://www.tryoutlinux.com/windows.html which fails to mention live cds at all. FUD/Lie number somany. It's really not funny anymore. Granted, that site looks slick. The marketing talk is smooth. And quite disgusting. Well Im not sure its disgusting (in English as opposed to deguelas in French.) Its what people want to see/hear. Overall I see Lindows as a choice against windows for the majority of people who have no interest in whats under the bonnet. Its what Id give my mum, not my brother who knows nothing of linux but would learn, my mum would just want something that works for her basic stuff and if it doesn't do something more advanced then she would have no interest in doing it. Its very sad IMHO that this is the way that works but thats life. Sorry about this rant and getting back on-topic after straying so nicely. Hadn't seen this one page, but it is so full of fud, half-truths and lies it is just not funny.If you're going to say: this is not the lindows website, I can only respond: they are sponsoring it and putting it under a different name, so they can't be sued. Really, for all those that still think I'm exaggerating in my thinking that lindows with a big linux marketshare would be a bad thing: please, read again and do a lot of good hard thinking. I still agree with those who use lindows to solve their hardware problems (temporarily!), but the company and methods are NOT OK. The fact that they play nice with the FLOSS community on occasions and contribute now and then DOES NOT make Lindows an OK company. They are into spreading FUD and Lies about other linuxes (and their own in a positive way)... Well no apolgies needed, I understand your concerns and share them to an extent BUT this represents a perhaps necassary evil. I actually get the impression its more of a game to Robertson, but in the end I think his game is giving people a choice and breaking monopolies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aRTee Posted January 27, 2004 Report Share Posted January 27, 2004 (edited) Linux needs no lies to get on top. Never has never will. Linux needs no community members that have such business practices. There is no such thing as necessary evil; the breaking of monopolies is a natural effect that is as old as the world. No monopoly can survive in the long run. The breaking of MS' monopoly began a long time ago, and with countries like China, India, Brasil, Israel, etc moving to linux, there is no reversing. Count in CELF, and linux is in as much as windows is out on the consumer electronics side -- which is much bigger than the computer business. Take Lindows out of the equation, and nothing really changes for the progress of linux. If people spend the money they currently spend on lindows, on other FLOSS things (whichever, as long as it helps FLOSS developers pay some bills), there will be no loss if lindows bites the dust... Edited January 27, 2004 by aRTee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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