Ive been using MDK on and off since 6.0. and did the daily use migration around 9.0. I have read some harsh comments toward LindowsOS and Michael Robertson. I’m just wondering what Im missing.

1. Ok we have a Linux distro that’s runs as root (not good). But come to think of it I don’t use a root pwd with my MDK. not as bad as being root but still bad. My thought is its my home computer with no direct internet connection (firewall/router - see coyote linux).
2. He charges for his distro (alot do)
3. He charges for updates / apps (there is a free resource too)

My thought - so what

A windows user is used to paying out for just about everything. From some reviews Ive tread Lindows does a very good job with documentation. And they are very good for the Linux newbie.

My first Linux distro was RedHat 5.1 (Manhattan). I spent a very long time learning the system. What did I do after I was a little comfortable? I tried Slackware. Now thru the years I have tried many distros. Heck I have a 800mhz AMD machine that I change Distros each month on.

I would think that if someone changed from M$ Winblows to Lindows it would be good. Why? Because there is a good chance they would try other distro's when get the feel of Linux. Maybe RedHat or Slackware or Mandy who cares it will be another Linux user.

What’s kind of funny is what seems to be a personal battle he has with M$. Would it not benefit Linux in the long run? I mean in the news is better then no news right? As for those who say Linux is not ready for the home desktop, I beg to differ. Who here remembers RedHat back in the 5.0 time frame? Id say we have come a long way. I would even say a windows only user would only need about 2-3 weeks to get a good working feel of KDE.

Now dont take be as a pro Lindows user, but I have not read that much to put me against it. Can someone expain why alot are so against Lindows?


Mods/Admins
I put this thread in Everything Linux not Other Distros. I thought since it was a general talk topic and about a Lindows problem this is where it should be. Please move if needed

Actually i think that if Mandrake made the same claims as M$ does in its adds it could charge the same as M$. Mandrake would at least get closer to the claims. There are so many people out there that actually think price has something to do with quality. If you claim linux is free they look at it as something cheap and inferior. Put a big price on it, claim its better, claim it has more features, and then tell them they will need to invest in some new expensive hardware to run it. Heck if you seperated out the firewall, the server options and the games they would still like it at the same price. Then you could sell all the other parts to them. Hey only the best use the best and really when you want security for your desktop why use something you know has problems? Definately not for the comon user. They don't even have to see it to just KNOW they will like it.

If lindows can make sales to the general populous then heck its only good for linux.
The fact that it runs a little like windows and looks a little like it thats only because thats what everyone expects. We can't change what people expect without getting more linux out there. if it takes preconfiguring it and "dumbing it down" then it will have to be done. those who want a "pure" linux will always have that option.

normal windows users just don't beleive half the claims of the linux comunity. Its not what they expect for free.

Well, I can see Lindows being a good stepping stone OS for people wanting to leave windows and enter the Linux world, but I don't see it as an OS you want to use long term, and nor is it free.

Well,
I thinks its just snobbery.
Mandrake isn't suitable for my mum. She would be challenged with a Mac or XP, it simply isn't her thing.
Michael Robertson rose to fame with MP3.com. He pretty obviously doesn't like Bill Gates and paid with his own money to make a alternative OS.

Not only that but I think he realises he has enough money. I did an old poll, who would you prefer to be, I didn't list Robertson but I did list Branson.
By his own admission he is rich, he pays his taxes and he is trying to do something with his money. Bill Gates is just obsessed with making more money/dominating the world.

Now I believe Robertson is a perfect example of the political compass thing. He's obviously a capitalist BUT he's also a libertarian. More than anything he bleives in FREE CHOICE.

He is trying to give THE MASSES a choice other than Windows and his distro is written for the masses.
People forget that FREE software means FREE SPEECH not FREE BEER. He doesn't charge a lot.

Lindows is 59.99 per year!!!!

Mandrake Discovery is 39.00. Every six months. Mandrake expert with 5 incidsents is a further 160$ 10,000$ for whatever they call Professional support 20 incidents. Club memebership for Standard is $60 per year and $120 for the Silver memebership that gets you proprietry drivers etc.

I don't think its fair to say Lindows is expensive. I got Lifetime membership for $100!!!!

It is MUCH easier for a non-interested person to just USE. If all you want is basic SOHO then it just works like a Mac.

Will you learn as much as Mandrake, definately not. Like OS-X you can use the 'advanced' functionality but 90% of people won't. (like my mum)
Then again you don't learn as much with Mandrake as with LFS.... its a question of who its for.

Click n run just works.

For me its definately not replacing Mandrake but for my laptop it works. No fiddling etc.
Click N Run already has an empty WiFi section. I have no doubt once they negotiate a deal the WiFi drivers will just work in the same way.
And you always have choice....
I can install Xine as Xine OR I can pay $5 and get the commercial lifetime personal license for commercial DVD encoder/decoder which is much better than the FREE libdvdcss.
My laptop is challenged anyway so libdvdcss challenges it into jerky playing, the commercial drivers don't.

Is it good for Linux, ????
Is it good for choice DEFINATELY. Lots of people oput there (Im sure you know lots) are challenged by mansdrake and even then they don't wanna learn. The computer is just a tool to write up their letters or surf.

Yeah, and according to Windoze, they need minimum 256 RAM to run winXP and Internet Exploiter (probably will be 512 for Longhorn) and a minimum HD of 40GB to store their letters....



I also wonder:

if you make an effort, can you make LindowsOS secure (no trolling intended)?

secure Lindows:
Yeah I guess but its not the point.
Its not a distro for you and me (except my laptop) etc. its just for people like my mum who will neverlearn and just want a consumer appliance.

You can use apt and get anything from the Deb trees but if your going to do this extensively then better to start off somewhere else.

However not running as root is as simple as just adding a user. Im doing that now as I type.

I guess if you want to add to lindows they have a whole devel kit and you could customise it to make it suitable for a professional office etc. but for SOHO it does what you need.

As a stepping stone Gnubie Im not sure. It just works and 90% of people will probably never make the next step. When I look at what advanced stuff I do in Mandrake its 50% becuase Mandrake can't do it anyway whereas Lindows can stragiht out of the box. Ultimately Mandrake will do more.

Its like for no work understanding Lindows beats Mdk handsdown for non geek home users.
I just want 9.2 and nforce to work and MDK means compiling my own kernel.
However customising Lindows heavily is more work than Mandrake. Once you start tweaking Lindows is a lot more work. It can be done but it stops beingLindows pretty much quicker than Mandy stops being Mandy.
However Mandy is still midrange on this aspect. LFS or slack etc. are more customisable again but you need to know more to even install them.

Its all a question of learning curves!!! Why yuo want to use Linux (or perhaps why you don't wanna use windows even)
So its individual. My mum could use lindows and be productive, i doubt she could use Mandrake.
When she got to recompiling a kernel she'd switch off the PC and just go and read a book or something instead!!!

My only real problem with Lindows is the whole running as root by default thing...

phunni: its as simple as control panel add user. Then it will prompt you next time you go into X via kdm.
After that you are prompted for the root password when needed.


But the idfference is when I added a user it added it to k3b for me.
K3B just works.... its preconfigured wheras in mandrake it involves lots of messing about and conflicts with xcdroast etc.

Its not for everyone and probasbly not for you unless they bring out some prof mixing stuff. Then it might be

Remember like a said at the top. Alot of use (including me) set no root password in MDK. this is not as bad as being root at login but still very insecure.

As for Lindows, I now think that it would be a great Distro for one mom or grandparents who want to get away from Window$.

Never really thought to compare the price of Lindows to Mandrake in total. Take Mandrake silver club membership with 2 Distro charges each year and compare to Lindows with the download package.

Granted MDK is free to download. You can also get just about all progs via urpmi. What I've learned about Linux to me is - giving back -. For me is paying for a distro here and there(Im due at MDK10). Maybe a membership in the club or some web space (bandwith).

I would love to get my wife on Linux (Lindows). She works from the house. Problem is her computer hardware only has windows98 drivers. and they(Stedmans) don't make a medical spell checker for Linux yet. If they did, I think I would get Lindows for her. Complete easy of use with little changes out of the box. Plus the look and feel is alot like Window$.

Hey, Gowator, me too!

I want to support free (as in speech) software where I can. Plus this was a perfect excuse for me to actually be able to try out Lindows. Maybe it's not so bad I am getting so tired of having to install almost everything manually: programs, games, etc. yeah the top programs (e.g. openoffice) have decent installers, but otherwise its ./configure, make and fingers crossed...

Plus if I really cannot use it I can always give it to s.o. else (also thinking about my mom, maybe I can find a cheap computer for her to install it on).


Darkelve

Let's not foget that this is a newbie's distro though - if I was new to Linux and familiar with windows - I wouldn't add the extra user, I'd do it all as root.

In fact - the first few months of using Linux - I DID do everything as root - and thant was in mandrake where I was encouraged not to do that!

Phunni,
Yeah your right but even if you do everything as root its still only like ruinning windows. The difference is you have an option to run as a user and your processes run as users (like apache) therefore providing at least some protection.

Anyway, as I said its a vote for free choice not free (beer).

I still think Mandrake is a far better distro to learn about linux but for your gran/mom perhaps Lindows is better.

I think its important that they actually have a proper financial model.
Like the $100 for life thing really works! It works becuase it allows me to receive as well as give. I get something tenable (the distro) which costs them nothing but gives me something positive. Its a good model becuase it apeals to my avarice while allowing me to actually 'donate' the $100.

This is directly opposite to buying mandrake. You get nothing in return (although I see 9.2 brings back 2 months club membership which is a good start) and if you buy the Discovery you only get the 2 cd's not 3 which you can download.

I honestly wouldn't have minded paying for the DVD edition of the powerpack but I wasn't willing to play the Mandrake buy direct lottery and couldn't find the DVD edition in the stores.

You have to buy lots of distro's like Suse or Xandros but I don't see the same levels of criticism from people who haven't tried them as I do for Lindows.

Tried Lindows OS yesterday. Looked very slick. Very nice icons, window decoration is a bit over the top in my opinion. Nicely organized too with good standard applications. Your mom&pop could definitely use this. It did not automatically mount my windows drives, but I was able to add them by 'create new disk' from the KDE menu.

I was relieved to when I finally found the program "konsole" included. It's pretty much hidden, but it is there.

Also found a wireless USB ethernet card very similar to the Intel one I use now on www.lfriendly.com: http://lindows.pricegrabber.com/search_get...masterid=405980

I'm still wondering if it'll really work. Setting it up won't be too much of a problem, KwifiManager seems very capable of that, but it's about the drivers I have doubts... anyway if it's not it shouldn't be on the website I guess.


2 things I did not like:

1. The Fonts Lindows uses in OpenOffice (1.0.3) are butt-ugly.

2. I have no sound. I think it did not detect my soundcard (yes, I did put the volume up), so that was a big turn-off. Mandrake did recognize it. Unfortunately, I temporarily deleted Mandrake to make room for Lindows (I also thought eventual triple-booting would go better when installing the Mandrake system last). Knoppix, which is based on Debian, recognized it as well.

I think it was an nvia (Nvidia?) soundcard, or an nforce-audio??

How would you recommend to solve this?


Darkelve

download and install the drivers from the Nivdia website - it's usually pretty straightforward

nforce-audio is probably what you are looking for...

Phunni, thanks for the advice. I found them and I am pretty sure that is what is screwing up my experience with Lindows so far. In particular my sound and usb (hangs whenever I plug something in, just like in Mandrake 9.0/9.1), but maybe also the ethernet part (I suppose that is what that driver "nvnet" is for).

That and the absence of make and configure in Lindows.!!

I know it's meant for total N00bs, but still! Lots of software/configuration tools depend on it.

So I got no way to install this!

Plus I still got no internet connection, so I'm running a really substandard system now.

Darkelve
P.S.
My short opinion so far: Lindows is interesting, as long as you
- do not try to dig too deep in it (although I did manage to set up Crossover Office albeit with some trouble when Lindows tries to automaunt the CDrom)
- use it in the way it is intended to be used, limited to a selection of core tasks (watching a video, browsing the web, playing games, ...).

Of course, 1 of its strengths, Click&Run, I haven't been able to test it out yet and my hardware problems are bugging me, so maybe I'm just a little too harsh on the distro right now.

Apperently, in their new version, Lindows changed the kernel version to 2.4.22, supposedly with support for the nforce chipset. There were quite some complaints/requests from users for this.

Only downloaded and installed it 2 days ago.

Oh well, it's not like I'm not used to downloading. At least with Mandrake, it was every six months

Oh, and their support is really wonderful. Fast, friendly and to the point. Only they tend to be a bit less complete/technical than on these Forums. Then again, their OS design is supposed to take care of most of these technicalites.

So they seem to be friendly *and* , to a certain extent, listening to their users.

But I think Keving Carmony (Carmogy?) spends his whole day posting on forums.

Oh, wait. Right.

Better get back to business

I'm negatively surprised that no-one calls LindowsOS and M.Robertson for the non-free part of lindowsos.

This is the main reason why I prefer to pay 60$ per year to Mandrake instead of 100$ to lindows for a lifetime.
They can keep the lifetime membership and stick it anywhere they like.

I guess looking at the prices and comparing that way, you have a point.

It all comes down to what you believe your freedom is worth to you.


Putting this in perspective, Lindows imho would make proprietary drivers only for lindows; they would / try to lock people in as much as they are locked in into windows today.
Sure lindows wants to push choice, but only as long as they have to.

Mandrake so far has remained true to the Free Software spirit. urpmi and gui tools are all free software.
There is no underestimating this.

There is more than 'cheap' on the side of Free Software. Free mindsets, freedom of changing and inspecting the code, sharing etc. All that is lost on those who just see lindows as a cheap alternative to windows. GNU/Linux is the key, and lindows has only half of that.
Free exchange of ideas is what counts.

It really saddens me that no one here seems to care.

Well, I do care. But I do not think the two are mutually exclusive. It is important to have a solid philosophy as well as proof that a commercial effort through Linux can be economically beneficial.


I bought Mandrake 9.0 Powerpack at the time to support them, since I love their philosophy. I would buy 9.2 also, because for me it is enormously better and more usable than 9.0. But I'm going to try Xandros first.

They certainly try to bending some things their way, but they are not really crossing any legal boundaries here. Perhaps you feel they do not follow the spirit of the community, yet they do give back, albeit much less than Mandrake does.

I do care. Lighten up!

If next year I will count all the time/money I will have spent on Linux Hardware and software... trying to help out here and there, haven't I contributed too?

My experiences with their support were positive. That's a fact. I was curious and took advantage of the offer to check it out. It's actually not as bad as I feared it would be, much much better than M$ actually. Note also the audience for this distro.

Everybody has his place here, and if they won't adapt, they'll perish. It's as simple as that, Robertson or no Robertson.


Let's see (not meant to compare prices):
- Mandrake 9.0: €40
- Lindows: €100, all versions plus membership C&R; which is very convenient for checking it out, should it ever turn out to become something
- Xandros: €99
- Mandrake 9.2: € 40
- Router for my Linux box: between €50 and €120

- Helping out here and there; advocating Linux to my friends: priceless


My advice is, if you don't like Lindows, ignore them. And put your efforts into what you think is worthy of support. Me, I'm just curious, and a bit opportunistic at this time.

Why does this feel like the inquisition suddenly?



Darkelve

My point is, reduced freedom is not freedom.

LindowsOS is reduced freedom.

Mandrake download edition is freedom.

No one seems to really care about the difference. I would never ever support the former and always the latter. I go out of my way to explain to friends that the former belongs in the same row as MS. Yes they do.
One cannot freely copy their discs, make those available on the net etcetc. One cannot see what is really inside. Those 'ideas' are lost to the rest of the world.

To most, Stallman is an extremist. Maybe he is, but he is also the greatest light in terms of IT freedom, a misunderstood genius.

If we have computing freedom in 10, 20 years, it is thanks to him and people on his side. And no one else.
We must all put weight on his side of the scale, or we will have others, not ourselves to thank for any freedom we have left in some years.
Thanks to Stallman and the like, the outlook isn't really that grim.

I cannot ignore LindowsOS since their marketing is so good, and people fall for it. It is very dangerous if they get more momentum than other linuxes -- for one thing, suppose Lindows gets 30-40% marketshare, gets closed source drivers that make laptops only really functional with lindows (or mswin).
Also, ms can then buy them and have control once more.
And in any case, the linux world will have lost.

Put money into true GPL projects, those are the ones that are really of eternal benefit to the community, nothing is hidden, all ideas can be reused. We must strive to get momentum for that, since it is the most important thing. Advocating something that doesn't benefit the whole community forever (i.e. not GPL) is a waste of time and effort.

Hell, I'm not advocating Lindows! As I said I expected it to be much worse, but I was curious anyway. Turned out te be much better than I feared. But there's no comparing with Mandrake which is a much more mature distro IMHO.

I reinstalled Mandy yesterday and for the first time did some 'advanced' partitioning, granting my /home a different partition. I also used ReiserFS, something Lindows used and I could not help noticing somehow things seems faster. Now I'm using ReiserFS on Mandrake 9.2 (as opposed to ext2 and ext3 earlier on) and performance really is much faster (and my system already ran faster going from 9.1 to 9.2).

You say Lindows has good marketing.

But why can't Mandrake have that!? Their discovery edition is going in the right direction (I mean, which home user will be happy to spend 2-3 days downloading stuff, installing, and tuning his system?), but who (joe user) has ever heard of them?


I see your point and mostly agree, but how is one supposed to know which projects are really worthy of support? And how do you judge something is 'worthy'? Personally I think Crossover Office/wine is worth supporting, not because I want everyone to run Windoze apps but because they really help gap the bridge for a lot of people (plus showing off how 'cool' Linux can be). Mandrake I love too of course.

Hey, we aren't all going to jump to Lindows all of a sudden! Right guys


[EDIT: I do agree that we should not take the position we have now for granted. I did not mean to sound like I did.]


Darkelve

I have no problem with your position, freedom includes choosing to support whomever you want to support.
My point is, if you care about your freedom and the continuation of it, support those who stand for it, like Mandrake, and not those who would like to take it from you, like MS and on a smaller scale, Lindows.
Buying memberships, even if the price seems low, even for life, is still putting money in the wrong pockets, but this again is IMHO.

Wine and derivatives are just workarounds, no solutions. It's trying to play catch up with MS, which is a goal that will ensure the wine developers with jobs for life. And they will all stay one step behind.

I use only open source, and I realise that for some this may not be as comfortable or even possible (though I think few if any home users really needs anything that has no replacement on linux), but if attainable this is largely preferable for linux and open source than to workaround things.

On a side note, do you believe that lindows, preinstalled and preconfigged, beats Mandrake, preinstalled and preconfigged?
I don't believe so.

Why Mandrake cannot do such proper marketing:
1) they still have trouble getting back onto their feet from the .com bubble burst
2) they are trying more to work with oems
3) maybe they are just not good at it
4) they have Gael Duval, whereas Lindows has MRobertson...
5) they are not so good at selling hot air

BTW I think more than half the marketing of Lindows is bullocks, things they can't deliver on. I would not like Mandrake to exhibit the same behaviour.
Lindows marketing gets their name out there, but IMHO not in a respectable way.

Ah well, my 2 rappen.

Well, no. Then again if I were a home user I would not mind having *certain* steps decided for me (not every freaking thing like Lindows does), in order to have the most pleasant experience possible, albeit without breaking things (e.g. I hated the symlinks to the 'My Documents' folder spreaded all over their filesystem).

I've now had the chance to compare the two a bit and, yes, Mandrake is superior to it. But there remain certain barriers for Joe user. I mean just look at the menu structure some distro's that claim to be desktop-friendly have. Also, you have to install and preconfigure Mandrake yourself, at least until the Discovery Edition, which is a very good step in my opinion. Before someone new to Mandrake had to install all kinds of plug-ins, e.g. Flash, Acrobat Reader, ... using a *new* concept, rpm; using a new program, called urpmi; using a new way of doing this, called the console.

About wine, tell me, am I going to pay Eidos to make a Linux version for the next release (although if in group, I would) or just run it under Wine. IMHO Deus Ex is an excellent time killer for me and about the only (3d)-game I play. I am an avid fan of adventure games (KQ, QFG, GK, MKI, Myst, ...) and so on. And what do we have on Linux:

- Beneath a steel sky, Loom and monkey island, (using scummvm!)
- Hopkins FBI

So you can tell I'm happy to have Wine available for some of these to run them natively, should they work. Or I can just dual-boot everytime I want to play one of those games... which do you think I prefer?


Yeah a lot of Lindows marketing is bullocks. Seems to be the definition of marketing to me today... and I do have problems with their marketing. But the *way* in which their business is conducted, is entirely professional (not talking ethics here), e.g.

- Good customer support, which I haven't really seen at Mandrake (went through Mandrake Expert; sure they helped me out but it took a lot longer and there was no real follow-up)
- Delivery: they deliver on time (I believe with FedEx), something I haven't seen at Mandrake

About ethics: yes, they often twist things in weird ways (to their advantage of course); I must say I haven't thought much about it until now. The lifetime membership just seemed like a good deal at the time, so I went for it. I guess that's also part of good marketing. They sold it as "Help defend Linux and get something really cool in exchange". Kind of like Gowator said in his remark.

That being said, I don't really plan on giving them a penny more if they do not play fair.

To be honest, I feel that these guys ( http://www.xandros.com/ ) have an excellent mix of marketing, professionalism and ethics, focussing solely on their own strong points, not bashing other Linux distros, ... of course feel free to correct me if I'm wrong

I'm kind of a distro-hopper at the moment, but something tells me I'll get back to Mandrake eventually. Or a dual/triple boot.

[Edit: after just 2 days, I got back to Mandrake ]


What are rappen anyway?

Understand your point on wine, but my point is that it should be just a temporary fix, until all the games you play are native linux games.

If you keep on buying windows games "because at some point they will function under linux+wine" you're putting your weight on the wrong side of the scale...

So to use wine for the apps/games that you have is fine with me; to keep buying windows apps and use them under wine when alternatives are available that are linux native is a bad choice. Again, imho -- do what you want anyway.

I just try to make people aware that the strong point of Linux is the FLOSS community, give and take, but don't give away control over your own stuff/machine etc.
The only proprietary things that I can live with (in the long run) is games. Ok, drivers, but I'd prefer them to be open -- but one must be pragmatic at times. That being said, nvidia drivers make X the only thing on my pc to crash from time to time (and surely some of the apps).

So, to me at least, it is important to make people aware: their choice of linux distro counts. The choice that leads to more freedom and sharing is the better one.


Rappen are 'cents' of the Swiss franc.

Point taken

Lindows....
I think this really is a pro-choice thing.
I for one will not be using Mandrake as a main distro if they carry on the way they are going.

I decided to TRY the 9.2 download. aRTee points out that the tools (drake) and urpmi are all opensource. Yes, true but they are not documented.

That is two levels of documentation are available.
1) The source code....
2) A guide for idiots that cannot work out pressing start wizard - erm starts the wizard.

I had to install both .... and I was particualrly dissapointed with the technical documentation.

What did I want/what was I looking for??

Well, something like this modifies /etc/sysconfig/network-scripts.....
etc. etc.
I currently have a dead system..... that is I need the kernel source to compile my nforce drivers. I guess Ill have to disable onboard networking and stick in another card to download and compile then take it back out.

I looked everywhere for docuemntation of the mandrake sources, it simply doesn't exist as far as I can tell. For instance what is the difference between a vanilla -mdk and a -mdkenterprise ????

Even more annoying, I downloaded the -mdk with the intention of adding the 4GB support and recompiling for athalon....
BUT.... It is NOT the SAME source used to compile the same version -mdk....that is a secret.
(I get all sorts of missing symbols, even the "EXTRAVERSION" flag is changed in the Makefile. In other words the .configure cannot be the same .configure mandrake profess or imply to have used.

In order to use the nvidia nforce make install it expects no extraversion....

These are all just examples.....
Now I find linuxconf is no longer or the Cd's. ....(or kernel sources or ....)

Personally I think the Drakeconnect stinks....
If it works it works, if not you are stuck. Try changing the type of connection etc. AFTER running it and you can't. Once you choose say pppoe then it installs the pppoe rpm's and gives no option to change to say a lan connection!

Hence I need either linuxconf or documentaiton for how to get rid of this. It doesn't exist, (anyone interested you need to deinstall the pppoe rpm's then delete the network card and recreate it. )

This is propreitry by the back door!!!
The more Mandrake moves in this direction the less attractive it is as a primary distro. It hides linux away from the user.

This is exactly what Lindows does...
The difference is Lindows is alinux distro for people who don't want to learn linux.
Mandrake has always been a distro for noobies who want to learn but now they are making it harder for you to actually learn or control your system.
If you want to throw away 5% of a 200GB disk then use Diskdrake.
If you prefer to keep the disk you paid for then use mkfs!

etc. etc.

On the opposite end are LFS etc.
In other words the correct distro depends on the person and their time they wish to spend and control over the system. Slackware/LFS/Gentoo/Debian perhaps are purist distro's. Suse/Mandrake and the old RH are intermediate and Xandros/Lycoris or Lindows are for the people who just want it to work.

In the end any driver for Xandros or Lindows will work with Debian or debian based distro's. Any lycoris driver will work for rpm based distro's.



Yep that is what I thought and Darkelve too.
However we were both very pleasantly surprised when we tried it.


Yeah OK thats a cheap trick quoting myself being quoted!!!
BUT like aRTee said,
I think a fundamental difference seems to be that Robertson understands marketing.....
He made me feel like i did something worthwhile AND at the same time I get something to justify the cost/donation.

Mandrake sem to do the oppositie.....
Like download edition = 3CD's = FREE
Offical CD's = 2 CD's = 40 euros
Powerpack = 7CD's = 70Euros....

Like I said before theirs no buy in....i.e. Why not give a years club membership with buying the Powerpack!!! Give something other than the extra rpm's and a whole load of commercial demo's.
I get this with Lindows....
I get some free commercial stuff and also a reduction on StaroOffice etc. as a member. Its subtle but one makes me feel like my contribution is appreciated, the other like they don't care I went out and bought the powerpack.

In fact .. its almost the opposite. I buy the powerpack in FNAC etc. to encourage FNAC to stock Linux and inparticualr Mandrake. (For those not knowing which i know doesn't include darkelve or aRTee FNAC is a big music/technology chain in france and Europe)
I do not trust Mandrake to deliver ANYTHING on time. I wouldn't use mail order if I had no other way to get it. So I went out to buy the DVD edition powerpack and couldn't find it. It isn't in the stores. I have as much intention of sitting there with 7CD's as I have of spending XMAS on the moon!!! So then the choice was the 2CD version for 40Euros or the 3CD version for FREE.
Like I said before, kinda a no brainer!!!

Gowator,

I agree with plenty of what you said, but in any case, Mandrake is still a pure linux and pure FLOSS. Lindows is not. MSWindowsXP is also very nice to use (in the opinion of many satisfied customers). It doesn't change what it really is. Same for LindowsOS.

You're right about the docs on mdk tools. But those tools are not open at all at lindows. Can you compile your own kernel in lindowsOS at all?


For anyone wanting to tweak their own system, there is no reason not to start based on Mandrake and just not use the draktools at all.

Ok, you have some problem due to your nforce board. Hmm, closed source drivers.... Hmm closed source....
You see my point? We have to move to open source software completely, including open source drivers, to be really free.


In any case, yes Mandrake's presence is not what it should/could be. Have you seen RH lately? Times are changing, the good old ways are not good anymore.

I stand by my points, Lindows is proprietary is bad, Mandrake is GPL is good.
EVEN IF IT HAS MORE BUGS AND TAKES MORE TO GET TO RUN/USE PROPERLY.

But I'm now sounding like RMS, I guess.


BTW I'd much rather have dinner with Duval than Robertson.
Sure Robertson gets marketing. But that is not a plus, imho...


BTW:

?? Since when does that happen? Did I miss something here?

[quote]I agree with plenty of what you said, but in any case, Mandrake is still a pure linux and pure FLOSS. Lindows is not. MSWindowsXP is also very nice to use (in the opinion of many satisfied customers). It doesn't change what it really is. Same for LindowsOS.

[/quote]
No i agree, i wouldn't recommend it to a noobie who want to learn BUT I would to my mum whoo just needs internet access. + unlike windows its MINE...not leased and i can copy it, and use it on as many PC's as i like. Neither do i need to buy a new version, I got LIFE membership for $100!!!
Im using it right NOW becuase the mandrake machine is FUBAR becuase of the nvidia problem...
(yeah the graphics and the nforce....same as you...mysterious freezes) this has been running over a week now on lindows....

[quote]
You're right about the docs on mdk tools. But those tools are not open at all at lindows. Can you compile your own kernel in lindowsOS at all?
[/quote]
Erm, running it now, that was the last reboot (honest)
Just apt-get the source from debain although the Lindows click n go does have some sources too.
For anyone wanting to tweak their own system, there is no reason not to start based on Mandrake and just not use the draktools at all.

[quote]Ok, you have some problem due to your nforce board. Hmm, closed source drivers.... Hmm closed source....
You see my point? We have to move to open source software completely, including open source drivers, to be really free.
[/quote]
Yeah aRTee, i agree..... but i want stuff working in the meantime..... Still havn't got my DVD recording working in Mandy....but I bet it works under Lindows.... just like the DVD playback of encrypted DVD's which is the next point. I do it legally, I could do it at work unlike the dubious nature of libdvdcss....
Now I agree dvd encoding should be open but your wasting your breath (or fingers convincing me, I already beleive it, your preaching to the choir). Its also only 5$ for a LIFe license though .
[quote]
In any case, yes Mandrake's presence is not what it should/could be. Have you seen RH lately? Times are changing, the good old ways are not good anymore.

I stand by my points, Lindows is proprietary is bad, Mandrake is GPL is good.
EVEN IF IT HAS MORE BUGS AND TAKES MORE TO GET TO RUN/USE PROPERLY.

But I'm now sounding like RMS, I guess.
[/quote]
Yeah i agree BUT thats for me and you, not the masses. Why else am I still persevering with mandrake <G> but overall it does represent a CHOICE for the masses who don't wanna compile kernels or even drivers!!
In a way the new nvidia installer is good. It autocompiles and often ever works <G> shame its not opensource BUT you can always use the nv if you want. Nvidia gave away enough details for decent support but kept their IP on the openGL and stuff under their hat for now!!!
[quote]
BTW I'd much rather have dinner with Duval than Robertson.
Sure Robertson gets marketing. But that is not a plus, imho...
[/quote]
I'd like to see em at dinner together
BTW: [QUOTE]If you want to throw away 5% of a 200GB disk then use Diskdrake.[/QUOTE]

?? Since when does that happen? Did I miss something here?[/quote]

Erm, bascially its the default for mkfs and diskdrke doesn't let you choose any tuning parameters which is 5% allocated root space for the inode tables etc. makes ense on a 10GB drive but not on a 200GB drive.
BUT
thats my point..... many people will use diskdrake without knowing and theirs no technical manual, the manual claiming to be technical is like.... pressing ext3 will create an ext2 journaled filesystem....

Basically the removal of linuxconf is a BIG step back IMHO for mandrake.
Its getting harder and harder to get the tools outside of the draketools from the offical sources.

Most of all i suggest you try it.... its not half as bad as the critics make out and i agree with the opensource movement BUT thuis really is an alternative for the masses and any alternative is better than non. Personally i'd prefer mandrake to put back some control and document the wizards properly and keep being a distro for noobies to LEARN linux becuase they sure as hell won't on Lindows.

1) I will not try Lindows in any case.
It is the MS of linuxland and I won't waste my time on that.
SuSE, FC and Debian are interesting to me, as is Gentoo.

Lindows will never run on any machine that I have control over. There just is no point. As there is a point to having MSwin running in certain occasions (not on my workstation, but if my wife really needs it, she needs it. No-one needs Lindows here..)

Interesting side fact, Q: can you really install Lindows on as many machines as you want, legally?

Anyway, how come you can't get your mandrake running properly, but have time to do the lindows thing? Talkabout wrong priorities!!

Getting dvd playback is really easy on Mandrake, how you put that as a negative point for Mandrake and a positive one for Lindows beats me.
Oh and btw the DMCA is not in effect in europe/france, so there's really no worry about libdvdcss and you may install for dvdplayback at work without any kind of risk. BTW today John Johansen was aquitted for the second time. Hooray. Some legal systems seem to work.

BTW on Mandrake you don't have to compile any kernels or drivers, if you can download stuff from the clubmirrors they have all that.



This HD stuff is weird, since diskdrake just calls the normal commands and as such is just a frontend to mke2fs andsoon. I just used it yesterday, worked like a charm. If you need to get deep down and tune stuff, suppose they put all this stuff into diskdrake, then everyone starts complaining that there are too many options and newbies can take the wrong ones and things are just too complicated etcetcetc.


Last)
I will never try Lindows. Ever.


And actually, as post last: I think you shouldn't either...

"Interesting side fact, Q: can you really install Lindows on as many machines as you want, legally?"

Yep.....its specifically stated. I can have the laptop edition and the desktop edition too.

I agree on you and your wife but how about your mum or wifes mum???

"Anyway, how come you can't get your mandrake running properly, but have time to do the lindows thing? Talkabout wrong priorities!! "
Yep BUT... the PCMCIA has never worked on this laptop AND Mandrake. It works with Deb/Knoppix and Lindows.... see the trends!!!!

Installing Deb... was well challenging BUT it worked.... in mandrake best I could get was removing the PCMCIA from the init.d !!!!
Installing lindows really was 10 minutes!!!
I wrecked my mandrake box and wanted something that would just work.
Mandrake steadfastly refuses to boot with PCMCIA and I had a copy of Lindows given to me (illegally) by a friend. So I tried it, it worked and since i was using it I did the honest thing!!!

DVD playback is easy BUT.... 1) the propreirtry driver ARE better on my old laptop, they even allows on the fly recording!!!
2) they are legal. that is I could use them at work. Since my company has offices in America and (OK i don't need to point out the problems with the AMericans thinking they can dictate through sanctions or tarifs to the rest of the world) but we can't use it because the American system would penalise our american office. We had the whole thing over dealing with Libya, after the UN sanctions were lifted and America threatened to seize our assets in the states becuase they considered it illegal by their laws and we had an affiliate in the US.

However Good news on Jon....
Incidentally this is why mandrake doesn't put libdvdcss into the distro, not becuase its illegal anywhere but the states BUT becuase of economic pressure, even if they made a special US version they would be penalised inthe states for selling the european/asian/rest of world version with support where its legal.

"BTW on Mandrake you don't have to compile any kernels or drivers, if you can download stuff from the clubmirrors they have all that."

Unless your nvnet is not available then your a bit stuffed, no NW=no download!!!


"This HD stuff is weird, since diskdrake just calls the normal commands and as such is just a frontend to mke2fs andsoon. I just used it yesterday, worked like a charm. If you need to get deep down and tune stuff, suppose they put all this stuff into diskdrake, then everyone starts complaining that there are too many options and newbies can take the wrong ones and things are just too complicated etcetcetc."

Yeah the point is really if Mandrake us a distro of the 'intellegent noobie' as opposed to lindows for the 'sheep noobie' then they should document it etc and even suggest you learn about mkfs perhaps just a splash screen BUT somewhere.
OK, you or I can look at the source and see whats happening but many people can't or don't have time.
The problem is mandrake add stuff to make the wizards work and like shorewall often do it in a strange way that will not work with the manufactuerers/programmers documentation BUT even worse after destroying the programmers documentation bymaking the setup incompatible with the programmers documentation (which for shorewall is excellent) they stop you easily recovering from their failed 'defaults'

ive nothing against the wizards if they were documented and if they encouraged people to understand but they seem to be doing the complete opposite.

Now i want linux conf dfor the NIC setup but I can't have it till I get the NIC working. I guess I will just do it by hand but they took away the intermediate tool leaving only the CLI OR wizards.
So now im going to have to spend a few hours doing what linux conf would have done in 3 minutes!!!


Anyway. I tried it and i was impressed or at least found a lot of the FUD is unfounded, like the no source code or running as root or 1001 other things. Honestly i think its a lot of FUD and although I don't 100% support the direction they have gone i still think overall it is a choice for many.
It also represents great value...

AND it has also put a lot back into opensource, not everything but a lot.
Mandrake isn't exactly contributiong right now either.... its lean times.
However you might not agree on what they contributed, like some development of Wine... or the funding for the Xbox linux project... (all about free choice to use your box however you want)

Click n run is propretryfor good reason, it allows access to licensed software.
But most important I found after using it and reading the license etc. its nowhere near as bad as I had thought. I'd be agreeing with you before I tried it myself....

Lindows is hardly the MS of the Linux world. They are released a HTML editor for free (as in speech and beer) whereas MS would have made it closed source and welded it into the OS.

The only thing Lindows and MS have in common is they both want to make money. What's so wrong with that?

Actually i wouldn't lump SUSE in there, they use proprietry yast to limit distribution.

Debian, Mandrake, Gentoo, LFS, FC (some other lesser known distros) certainly but not SUSE in that group.

for the love of...

it's just another linux distribution, distributed in a different way, which DOES NOT interfere with the GPL, so get over it and just use what you like.

I swear.

Amen

Ok, some still miss my point.

Yes I know Lindows has contributed to the FLOSS community.

But compared to Mandrake they are the MS of Linuxland.




Those who see no problem there, please consider this:

(Suppose) Lindows gets marketshare.
The real and only way onto the average desktop is through preinstalled preconfigged systems. Not any other way.

So Lindows gets big on those systems. They make deals with hardware makers.
Then they get lindows to run on that hardware. Where no other linux can run.
Do you think they wouldn't do that if they couldn't?

Lindows is looking for hooks just as much as MS.

Johnnyv:
SuSE now is really another story. Yast IS opensource, just not GPL. I found out after some discussion that there really is a lot of FUD about this. More than about lindows.
In the case of SuSE the point is: they just want to make money, and want no one else to make money off of their product (except resellers naturally). This is good and fair to me, although yes, I don't like the Yast license -- GPL really would be better. But I still classify (for now) SuSE in line with Mdk, FC etc.
Point is also: you can actually copy SuSE and pass to friends. You cannot however, ask money for that.


Gnubie: releasing one GPL product doesn't mean Lindows is on the good side. Releasing plenty of closed source stuff does mean they're on the bad (or: not so good) side.
Remember IE? Everyone got it for free...
Ok, not a fair comparison, that one wasn't open source...
Back to this html editor: ever tried quanta plus in combination with konqueror? Can do about all the things that are advertised there (maybe not the wysiwyg editing, but hey, make up your mind: do real html and work the code or quick and dirty, i.e. wysiwyg and just use OOo). Lindows just talks nicely about and around it. Nothing new there, really.



Gowator:

Q: you can install Lindows as many times as you want, but can you pass it to me? Or to others?

Ok, I do agree with your pragmatic sense: if Mandrake doesn't work, and Lindows does, I see your point of using it.


I'm not falling for any FUD here, maybe I'm just paranoid, but in any case, if you move away from MSWin for reasons of FREEDOM instead of Free Beer, Lindows is a bad choice. There is no FUD in that.
Just as much as Xandros and Lycoris are not so good on the Freedom side.
So, I don't have to try it out to find out it actually works nice. This is irrelevant, beside the point. I have win2k at work, which actually works quite nicely -- hasn't crashed so far. (Just hate the win windowmanager and that I cannot get it to behave like I want..) And: hardware support is great, works fine on most laptops, incl suspend to disk etc. Plenty of software available too....
Still won't touch it with a ten foot pole if I can help it.


The GPL and only the GPL is a guarantee for user freedom, and to work as a community together to improve gpl products will benefit the community as a whole. To invest time, effort and money into proprietary stuff will not be to the benefit of the whole community.
As such I see a point in encouraging people to use Mandrake (FC, Debian, Gentoo, yes even SuSE) since it comes back at the whole community, and to discourage people to use LindowsOS, Xandros, Lycoris, since that is to the benefit of a few, and licences can be changed since they own all the rights.

BTW anyone saw how lycoris changed directions lately, angering many supporters?


Yes, LindowsOS is just another distro. No, it is not just another distro, it is just another non-fully Open Source distro. And people (newbies) should be made aware of that. There is a difference.
The moment people realise that, they can make their choice. Fine with me, just as it is fine with me if someone decides to keep using MSwin.
Until they realise there is a difference and they have a choice to make, it is necessary to explain things to them.


Frankly, I do believe that if Lindows could get deals with hardware makers (which they can if they become the largest linux distro in terms of sales, and if they get preinstalled preconfigged systems on the shelves) they will go for proprietary lindows-only drivers. Anyone saw what happened to MP3.com, M.Robertsons last venture?
Why they would do that? Well, why not? It would improve their market position, it would improve their bottom line, which is all they care about. And since they are not fully open source, there would be no way to fork.
I have no problems with a company trying to make money, until it becomes bad for the community. MS only wants to make money too. I doubt people here don't realise how bad that is for the whole world. If you don't know, think, read, surf some more. There are really many reasons.
Lindows is not bad for the community yet, but haven't we learnt? If there are alternatives that don't have this risk, shouldn't we promote those? That's why I say: stay off lindows and go for Mandrake (if you can, depending on hardware support). Which was the question at hand in this topic.

BTW The next step after lindows gets marketshare, closed lindows only drivers etc could be that Lindows gets bought by MS. But that is only a next step...

Lindows/MS aquisition could only ever be a hostile takkeover bid.
However I think Robertson isn't Gates.
The Problem with GATES is he doesn't see any end to makeing moneym its a reason in itself.
when "Robertson gets bored he sells off, so what....

Actualy MP3.com is the foundation for all electronic music. So he sold it and now its ogg OS, but he actually got the idea up and running and provided a boost.
In other words he took it to the masses
Thats what he's trying to do with Linux.
But fundamentally its open source. A few (very few) config tools are not but the kernel is just the linux kernel. KDE is just KDE etc.

At the moment he's actually encouraging manufactuerers to make linux drivers. If they have to be closed source then thats bad but its a step in the right direction !!!

Regarding preinstalation it isn't necassary with Lindows, even my mum could install it if she could find the CD drive !!!
I don't really like it for me but it works on the laptop and as you say its a pragmatic decision BUT there is a lot of FUD.



Or more simply see : this link

Im not trying to sell it, I jujst want to point out theres a LOT OF FUD that you don't realise until you look!!!!
WHY
IMHO Robertson is not interested in taking away thr market share of ither distro's. He's not even aiming at the same market. Hence Lindows don't want to fight against Mandrake or Debian Zealots....

It's not for you and me (although it is for my laptop <G> ) but it is for a lot of people. In fact why would anyone move from debian to Lindows if they are an advanced user.... more the other way round!!!

Gowator:
I agree.

But quoting some marketing talk from Lindows isn't necessary...

It's good that Lindows is trying to get drivers, even if not open source.
My fear is just that they would be, at some point, lindows only binary drivers. (For instance, precompiled for lindows, not available for other kernels.)
As long as the drivers are not restricted to lindows, it's a good thing if they manage to get them.

Regarding installation: your mum shouldn't have to do it. It should be done in the shop.
As an aside: I don't want to pay the MS tax on a laptop, and I wouldn't want to pay a lindows tax either. Now, as for a Mandrake tax...

I still stand by my point: make people aware that there are fully GPL distros that are not hard to learn, to install, to use.
People can only make a choice if they know between what they are choosing.

You are talking about lindows aiming at MSwin users looking for something different. Isn't that the market that mandrake is also addressing? If yes, they are competing. Just have a look and see how many people started their linux journey with Mandrake.

I think its a different kinda user.
BTW: My mum might be getting Lindows if I can get her a decent DSL contract this XMAS.
she has no wish to learn ...let alone configure or compile.
My only other option is really a MAC but Im a bit short of cash right now....

Some people come to mandrake and then give up and go back to Windows., especially the ones who don't find your site.

I fully agree that all closed source drivers is bad.... VERY BAD... but Lindows also uses opensource where available and where possible.
If you look at wifi support (specifically 802.11g) the US makes it illegal to distribute them closed source. Mandrake is French but I doubt they will ever include them, just as they never included libdvdcss. I believe Lindows will!!!
It adopts a more pragmatic attitude.
So for someone with built in 802.11g on their laptop there's no choice...
Same with m company, we could have mandrake laptopns BUT we couldn't have libdvdcss or 802.11g becuase we have a US fillialle which would be seized !!

when you look at the CHOICE aspect the US legislation has a lot to answer for. Quite why the Norwegian courts even entertained proesecuting Jon Johansen is beyond me they should have turned round to the US and said GO $%^& YOURSELF.
What right does one country have to attempt to prosecute someone in another country who is doing nothing wrong by the rules of that country.

Of course they only do this over commercial causes. Its illegal to jaywalk in the US but not in the UK, although it is in Norway and in France its technically illegal but who really cares <G> I don't see the US pressing for British people to be arrested and treid for jaywalking..
Of course not its ridiculous....its non of there business but in the case of commerce they make an exception.
Sorry this is drifting political but it is relevant to the thread.

The point is for encryption etc. (see Iraq LUG group thread) the Us extends its trade arms and issues sanctions against other countries, like excluding countries from bidding to rebuild iraq if they didn't actually take part in destroying it (sorry thats not entirely accurate but Im making a point) Who do they think they are to do that, they say its now a free state and liberated but they are only allowsed to do business with who America says they can!!!

This is one of the things I don't like about America. I like lots and love a few but this one stinks like 3 week old fish!!

The point Im trying to make is Robertson is an insider, he manoevers around this on the inside and achives what he sets out to do by playing within the law but stretching it where necassary. Mandrake is an outsider. they get told in no uncertain terms no doubt that if they include libdvdcss (illegal only in america) that they will not be allowed to sell in the US and their assets in the US will be seized.

So they do nothing....
come on, guys its a French distro....
A bit of 'systeme D' wouldn't go amis!!!

So this is a point in favour of Lindows ... guess who is more likely to actually be able to export a linux system to Iraq.....

So what I mean is some of this balances out.
Lindows paid for and developed LEGAL worldwide dvd decryption for Linux. If you are a member its 5$ but its available to you too if you have Debian for $49.

Mandrake has a much longer history but still relies on PLF for DVD playback.
Not only that but theoretically even my personal laptop could be ceased at customs if i travel to the states.

regarding OS tax....
I agree. However why not suggest to Roberston a refund!!
it might already exist.....
As for preinstalled YES... I agree BUT its also a CHOICE.
But this is where Lindows is making big strides...its worrying about the GPL nature BUT i honestly don't beleive the two are competing.
For developers its no contest... (Mandrake->SuSe,Deb,etc.) Mandrake is the starting point and more control from then on.
For those who want to learn then mandrake makes an ideal spring board, however notice how people get dissatisfied with it after a while and go for more complicated distro's like Debian or Slack....
Mandrake for me is my first recommendation to any noobie who shows any interest in learning and understanding. However for those who don't want to then Lindows is a valid choice. Many Windows user are unaware of what the GPL even is....and in the long term only a small percentage will ever know or even care. that is sad BUT thats the way of life.
How many people know how an internal combustion engine works... yet the drive cars and take advantage of the technology without understanding it.
I wish people were more interested, I really do but in many cases your trying to explain something totally foreign to them.

Hmm, don't know how much my site really helps, but thanks for the compliment. I rather like to believe that linux today is not for everyone; some don't want to learn a new system, some want their games etc. In that sense, there is no (big) difference between Lindows, Mandrake or other linuxes..


Sorry, that wasn't all that much to develop. It's more like: Robertson arranged for the paperwork to be done, and is cashing in since. This scores no credit points imho; it's not like he donated any money, just used the DMCA to make some, instead of challenging it at this point, which would be the heroic thing to do...


Actually, yes that may work. But only if the laptop can also function correctly with other linuxes.. But nonetheless a good idea.





And that's where I disagree. If Mandrake (excepting hardware support stuff) is not good enough, I doubt that lindows is. It really still is linux, and if you're going to learn then why not with a real free os...


Or, you can say: we have to put in an effort and help people get educated about things... Which is what I prefer (hence my website)....



As if people using linux or windows actually know how hardware works on the inside.. Very few do, and really it hardly matters.
But people need to know what kind of petrol they have to use, and why. And people care if they get more miles out of one kind compared to the other.
And many people do care if one type is more environmental friendly (should I say: less environmentUNfriendly) than another.

Before caring about things must come the awareness / knowledge of any kind of difference.
And it is up to FLOSS advocates to make it clear that there is a difference, and that that difference matters.

So again, to come back to the first message I posted in this thread, I'm negatively surprised that people here don't seem to care, and in many cases are not aware. Sad but true..

Sure, Robertson works on the inside, he goes with the flow. This is one side of reality, the opportunistic one. So yes, he's a good businessman. But the other side of reality is that the DMCA is not something to work within, but something to object to.
By making legal dvd playback on linux possible for paying customers, the pressure is relieved on reexamining the DMCA. This is a bad thing. So in that sense, Robertson has not done the linux community any service.

apparently my point was missed.

Lindows OS is another distro, done in a different way, specifically geared towards people who don't want to worry about choice. If it's not what you like in your distro, don't use it, but they have done NOTHING wrong (unlike MS), so for the love of all things Linux just let it go!

Speaking of choice, one does have the choice of not reading a particular thread if one doesn't like the content within it.

thanks for the tip, but as I mod I have offered to read threads and make sure things don't get out of hand.

i am also free to state my opinion.

but thanks for the tip.

From:
http://www.unixreview.com/documents/s=8989/ur0312j/

"Is Lindows for everyone? No, but that doesn't mean it won't find a niche"


And, in my opinion, that about sums it up.

Tyme, I don't see any point where things may get out of hand in this thread..
Gowator and I (well mostly) are having a discussion on the merits of Lindows as a linux distro.

True, they have not done anything big wrong, but that's beside the point. The point is what Lindows IS, not what the company has done right or wrong.

My points are: they can potentially do more wrong than Mandrake, in terms of being (or not) a benefit to the community -- let's just say there is a bigger risk if Lindows gets 50% marketshare on all pc's than if Mandrake gets that (and no other linux gets anthing, the rest just MSWin). Second: I think people should be informed, or at least, if they ask, should be made aware that there is a difference. Those who don't know have no reason to care.

I have learnt some interesting things from this discussion, some varying viewpoints have been presented and those interested have some more material to think about, take into consideration.

I see no reason to 'drop it' or anything of the kind as long as we are putting good arguments back and forth. Nobody is playing on the man, and there is no reason to either. Just some grown-ups with different opinions and vewpoints discussing things. This thread is about LindowsOS and that's what's being discussed. Seems good to me.


Darkelve: great quote.

i wasn't saying anything would get out of hand here, i was just stating what my "job" here requires me to do.

Anyways, the point I'm attempting to make is that what you are going back and forth about is essentially what LindowsOS intends to be. You can argue whether that's good or bad 'til you're blue in the face, and by all means feel free, but I just felt the need to say that it isn't going to get either of you anywhere which I'm sure you were aware of anyways

Let me make another remark:

Since Linux is free, there is no money to be made from the product. This means money has to be made from other areas such as packaging and service. Because there is also a lot of competition, companies actually have to DELIVER this service.

Is Lindows competing? Yes.
Is Lindows delivering? In my short experience, their service actually is very good.

Now: is Microsoft competing? No, because they do not WANT to compete.

So I would hardly say it is the M$ of Linux land. You're just afraid they will become that.

But if it gets really bad, half of the community will jump on them and lynch them and I doubt they will still get much co-operation of Debian and other developers.

In fact, for Joe sixpack (for whom it is really intended), it is probably *better* than Windows. If Lindows looks good, this will have a positive effect on Linux in general. If it looks bad, it's bad for Linux in general.

There's competition here, there's a control mechanism. There's a targeted market. It is relatively easy to switch to another Linux distro with KDE. You do not have to buy a license for every singe computer/cpu. Now Linux desktop systems have matured/are maturing, Operating systems will ultimately have only one choice: play fair, or die.



That, I agree with.



I think this is an excellent thread for people interested about Lindows, Mandrake and a comparison between the two. In fact, I doubt you can find a lot of places on the web where this is discussed so openly and you find valid arguments on both sides.

Wow did I open a can of worms or what?

Good to see the wide rage of ideas and thoughts on Lindows

Have to stir it up again but,

I was just reading some sites about viruses. They had mentioned that we may see more Linux viri soon do it its greater use.

I tend to disagree. My main thought was when Im on my computer Im not the su or root. Don't think to much damage to my system should take place as a normal user. Maybe my /home will get messed but who cares?

But Lindows ran as a newbie and as root may be an exploit that social engineers could take advantage off.

Man that could be some real bad FUD for Linux then

tyme:
hehe - I agree with aRTee that we are hardly going to disagree over this or start flaming each other. I have a lot of respect for aRTee so its not hapening <G>

However the important thing for people to realise is I actually thought the same as aRTee until I tried it. Now I do think its something which my mum could use just as easily as XP or OS-X.
The autodetection and config are WAY ahead of Mandrake wheras the tunability and customisability are way down.
To me its like discussing a pickup or a minature towncar. If you wanna lug 3 tons of goods around then take the pickup but don't expect the same milage as the town car or the same parking spaces to fit etc.

Mandrake is more akin to XP whereas Lindows is more akin to Win98. Its not simple obviously but to me its horses for courses.

To me a big difference is that once you want to hit the consumer masses then a customisable flexible system like Mandrake isn't good enough and you have to tie it down, then you end up with Lindows.

I don't really see the two as competing... OK perhaps on my laptop but not in a server environment or mixed server/workstation environment.
If mandrake continues with its propreitry (if opensource) wizrds then it will turn into a distro like Lindows except without the business model which is making Lindows a financial winner.

Personally I prefer the Mandrake ethics BUT they aren't working, Mandrake has been bankrupt for a year and it appears their road back is removing the source code or linuxconf and trapping people into their distro.

The thing about Lindows is the FUD by purists....
However mostly its just repeated stuff like theirs no source code. But there is ...

However I used to think about it like aRTeee does until I tried it and I really thing the onl way aRTee (or me) will change out opinions is by actually trying it.
I misjudged it, I listened to the Fud but tin the end it was just FUD and in the end it works better and faster than mandrake on my Laptop....

I have the source, etc. etc.

Tyme, see your point. The discussion was actually more or less at an end, with all discussion partners blue in the face already...

ac_dispatcher:
linux email is intrinsicly safe® than windows mail. Running as root is beside that point, since as root you can (and sometimes must) use email; this is quite common on unix too.
The point is that on linux the attachments cannot be executed automatically (except through bugs; not in normal use as is the case with windows).
The only menace that the root-using lindows user (apparently it is quite easy to set things up so that you don't run as root) will/may pose eventually is that they are so computer unsavvy that they can be lured into things like:


And true, at some point someone somewhere will fall for it.

Compared to the automatic executing of attachements on windows, I somehow doubt that this will really dent the reputation of linux.

Don't forget: on linux, there are at least 3 major and loads of minor mailreaders (evolution, kmail, mozilla mail, opera mail, etcetc) -- it is linux combined with intrinsic 'design for security' and diversity of programs and versions that will reduce any possible escalation of viruses. With windows, often the whole version is affected, or even several versions (IE up to version 5.5 for instance, or: all versions of WinNT, including 2k, XP and 2K3). With linux, things are more often very particular, since the problems are in bug exploits that sometimes only work in special cases: linux kernel 2.4.x combined with ssh x.x ....


Gowator,
I did some more thinking; I see your point, as to the merits of Lindows -- these are technical points, and in terms of hardware support there is certainly work for Mandrake to catch up.
I don't think I've fallen for any FUD; my points still stand that there is a larger risk attached to having lindows as Linux market leader. The only reason why they will never be that, is that I'm not the only one thinking the way I think...
Lastly, I'd like to take back/alter the statement that I will never have lindows running on any of my systems. I will never have lindows running on any of my systems, unless it is the only distro running properly even though they are not using proprietary lindows only drivers (in which case I wouldn't have bought the hardware in the first place).
But it still doesn't mean I have to try Lindows to see what is true or not; fact is that my systems run properly and are well maintained. There is nothing to convince me of on the side of the actualy technical functionality of Lindows, which I believe from you is very good. My hesitation is about the company and license (not that the source is not available, but that it is not completely GPL), the powerplay that could result, the lock-in, etc. This has nothing to do with FUD, but with logic reasoning. But then again, logic reasoning also agrees with Darkelve's quote that lindows will find its own niche. To complete the circle, that lindows become/stay a niche product also has to do with threads like this and people like me who prefer to see lindows as a niche product and not the leading linux distro.

And as said before, the hardware support is only one part of the equation; what is needed is preinstalled preconfigged systems straight from the store. (I've done a lot of thinking, and I think I know enough now to do it; have to get in touch with the cheapest computer parts reseller here and see if we can make a deal...)
Hardware support is a non-issue if you can determine exactly what goes into the home desktop machine. With a preconfigged machine, the only difference to the user is the wm/de: kde or gnome (or...), the system below doesn't (and shouldn't) matter.




Nonsense, the wizards should work without any docs, noone would want to read them. If you know so much that you would understand the docs and/or all options that could also be given, you can do without the wizards; the cli commands are really not so complicated, except for foreigners from windowsguiland...
Simplicity is the key, since if you really include all options people start telling you (mandrake) that things are still too complicated.

BTW Since when is Mandrake trapping people into their distro? Especially if you can get Mandrake for free, it hardly seems a trap.
I think they weren't bankrupt, they filed for chapter11 protection (well, French equivalent), which means they cannot go bankrupt. Come on Steve! Stop this fud!


Seriously, I think Mandrake is actually in a very nice position right now: OEM deals, shuttle, HP, RH getting of the home desktop, people not happy with RH, nor FC1, then incertainty about SUSE within Novell who also owns Ximian; Mandrake is the only stable distro of the large ones, except for their chapter 11 story which I think will soon end, and which I fear will be succeeded with a buyout by HP or so...
In any case, 2004 is looking good for Mandrake imho.

Your right about executing the script. Never thought about it that way. Question:

Would you also have to download the file and: chmod +x [file] to make it executable?

That would make it:

Download & save file
chmod +x [file]
./[file]

to deliver the virus.