New distro in town: Freespire (from Linspire)

[Darkelve]

Website linky:

 

http://www.freespire.org/

[dexter11]

AFAIK it's Debian based so it's rather following in the steps of Ubuntu.

[Darkelve]

And some people aren't too enthousiastic:

 

http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20060424164142296

[dexter11]

It' been a long time since I read such a narrow-minded article like this. It mixes two completely different matters which is a free distro with propietary stuff included and putting binary moduls into the Linux kernel. Well to the first one my opinion is why not. Maybe the article writer didn't heard about it but such distros already exist. Not to mention other distros like Mandriva when you just have to give them a small amount of money and their faith in open source just disappears and they give you every propietary stuff you want. In this point of view Debian is the ultimate distro.

About putting pressure on hardware drivers: first of all I'm not a programmer but I've heard everywhere that writing drivers is a way more difficult then writing desktop apps. It gets even more difficult if you don't have the specifications. And hardware manufacturers are scared to death about giving away any detailed info about their stuff. XGL is designed to use propietary drivers so is it evil then? Without assuring users they can use their hardware under Linux how could you lure them from windows? Without a huge userbase how can you put pressure on hardware manufacturers?

The article almost states that earning profit is evil. Or profit oriented companies in the IT world are evil. Well without these companies Linux just still would be a toy of several thousands of programmers. I say if the propietry driver is better than the opensource driver then use that. Make the user base bigger and donate to the open source driver writers from the profit. And if the propietary stuff gets buggy or evil then throw it out.

[Gowator]

I agree with Dexter here....

the very point that Groklaw makes is about them seeing Windows as their main competitor, not RH or Suse.

 

However its not following the steps of Ubuntu so far as I can tell because they say that you can still use the Debian repo's and that is a major difference.

 

In another way they are again different because they are not setting out to deliberately cripple software like Ubuntu/suse do but to provide a legal way of playing mp3 and DVD's.

 

Its not something I want to use but this is fundamentally different to the deliberate breaking of packages like Xine in Suse and Amarok in Ubuntu ... is it a better way? dunno... but its certainly not the same way.

 

What will it do to the linux community?

That is a seperate question ... and my guess is not much. As they state they are not competing against FC or RH proper or Novell/Suse who are aiming at commercial customers not individuals. They are providing pre-installed PC's (at least Linspire does) which are designed to replace the Windows pre-installed machines that people buy who are likely never going to switch to Linux any other way?

As someone wrote on the Groklaw site, how many FreeSpire potential users are likely to be reading Groklaw anyway? My guess is not many...

 

In many ways this is more a parallel to *bsd on servers... its a complete niche market and in many ways it will increase hardware availability for the rest of the community

 

Groklaw makes a big deal about users choice in the use of non-free drivers etc. but this is pointless because he misses the whole point that noone is being forced to use FreeSpire in the first place. In many ways it will provide a buffer for those coming from Windows and the high attrition rate we see here for example wityh Mandriva ... in the end many users just want to play and try out linux and however much we help them here many of them just don't want to return to a CLI and install binary graphics drivers NOT out of any reason about they are non-free and shouldn't be used but because they don't want to use the CLI.

 

These users will go one of three ways....

1/ They will not like Linux and install windows again....

2/ They will like FreeSpire and use it like an appliance

3/ They will like Freespire but become disenchanted as they learn more about linux and move to a more free distro.

 

Number 1/ we can forget, they will always return to Windows and are only trying linux to knock it.. verymuch like me finishing my most distateful novel ever just so I can actually critisize it and say I at least finished it!

 

Number 2/ Perhaps linux proper will miss a few converts? I doubt it though because this is a distro I'd give my mum .. millions of people use linux boxes everyday without even realising it. My IPS gives out linux boxes as routers and vlc servers... its not hidden, its opensource BUT many use them as appliances .. just like a tivo or linux based router. these users are the incurious who will switch it on and send emails and browse the web.

 

In a way like the *BSD guys in reverse. the more people using it will make for less MS market share... and OS-X on bottom end mini-macs is the most likely looser after windows. But every OS-X user is a bonus to Linux just by eroding MS market share and dominance, heck even Win98 diehards help out in their own ways.

 

Number 3/ Are the natural linuxers to start off with. Like many of the more seasoned users here don't use mandriva anymore these users will get bored with FreeSpire and seek more fun alternatives.

Unlike Mandriva though I guess less will be lost in the earliest stages where their curiosity is peaked but they don't quite see what linux is all about.

We will have to wait and see if they get the hardware support but if they do then this represents a far better chance for a high percentage of users to stick with linux long enough to see its benefits. AS I have said before this is something Mandriva do very badly ..

 

The worst case for Mandriva is people buying a powerpack and then being unable to use it. 90% of the time they will just go straight back to Windows if this is their first distro and be in the "tried it didn't work" crowd.

 

Far too many users are lost forever when their SATA raid doesn't work or network isn't working but Mandriva's business stance seems to be they add income that quarter and it got them through it and they don't care if the users just reinstall windows or not... harsh perhaps but we see it again and again here.

 

How many times have we had a potential linuxer who's Windows specific very expensive state of the art HW doesn't work? Heck its the real tech heads who love thier machine like a daughter and think its vcool having RAID 0 for some reason in a software RAID... they paid for this hardware and don't take kindly to us suggesting they change it to work with linux. They might not like MS but they love their machines working with all the bells and whistles...

 

If Freespire gets these devices working it will get round that... Like most of us have done we buy only linux compatible devices and we gradually replace the Win dependant stuff ... Freespire may well provide the buffer these people need to stick with linux long enough to realise it is the hardware manufacturur's at fault, not distroX for not writing drivers...

 

Just my 2c

[tyme]

In another way they are again different because they are not setting out to deliberately cripple software like Ubuntu/suse do but to provide a legal way of playing mp3 and DVD's.

 

Its not something I want to use but this is fundamentally different to the deliberate breaking of packages like Xine in Suse and Amarok in Ubuntu ... is it a better way? dunno... but its certainly not the same way.

I think you make a gross misstatement by saying that Ubuntu/Suse/Etc. "deliberately break" packages. They can't legally include certain codecs in their distributions, especially if the wany to distribute them in the U.S.A. - it's a pure legal issue. They don't include these codecs, but almost every distribution has a way to get them if you want them - you just install them. This isn't a "crippling", as the programs still work with codecs that are legally free to use, it's a simple legal step. It's completely unfair of you to act as if they are doing something wrong - they are actually trying to avoid doing something wrong. This is something almost every Linux well-known Linux distribution does, from Fedora to Mandriva to Ubuntu, etc.

 

Pam over at Groklaw has a strong opinion that open source should be only open source. She's made this well-known in various articles, and she has a right to her opinion. It's a very valid opinion.

[Gowator]

Actually Suse deliberately compile Xine so it can't use libdvdcss even if you install it. I think that is the worst case.

Ubuntu do something very strange with amorok and the libjack stuff which is more down to them being incompatible with Debian repo's than anything else ...

 

In Suse's case it is written in deliberatly and you need to either use a different player or compile from source etc. or find a unoffical Xine RPM. I know it seems hard to beleive but this is true ...

http://www.plainfaqs.org/linux/dvdplay/

 

The Ubuntu case is a bit less deliberate (I guess) but still as hard to actually get around. The basic problem is it relies on however many deps and it is something I never solved, even compiling from source because of the shere number of deps! You can't just use apt to find them all because it will find the modified ones so you need to find all the deps yourself.

Peope have got round it though BUT the problem is that next time you inadvertantly replace an innocuos looking lib file with a later version it breaks everything again and of course the rest of your stuff is out of synch...

 

If you are a upgrade by installing the new Cd person this is possibly not so bad but if you are a update gradually via repo's kinds guy then its disasterous, you end up breaking it, fixing it adding a package to the "lock version" list and then finding another dep of a dep that puts you back in the same mess....

 

There are other ways to handle this like Mandriva's which is just not to include libdvdcss ... etc. so far it seems OK and FC/Mandrake and co are not being sued so I see no reason Suse/Ubuntu need to go to these lengths.

 

To me removing something and leaving it to the user to install is one thing, its a workaround to a silly situation but actually rewriting Xine or hacking the libs is another matter.

 

Let me illustrate this with reference to my legacy free Celeron 766 machine.

The machine is very nice, pretty quiet and just a normal PC with USB 1.1 and video out instead of a monitor, it says' XBOX on the front but hey not everything is perfect.

 

Now the thing is MS spent a lot of developer time making the machine unable to boot anything but the XBox OS...

and when people found they could MS actually went and did criminal damage to their machines then claimed it hacked into them from the US so it is immune to EU law and the compulsary jail sentence that they would have in Germany under its anti-'hacking' laws.

 

Something is wrong here, if I buy an Xbox then if I want to run linux on it its my affair? If I want to use it as a doorstop or large paperweight that is my affair too?

 

I view the Suse hacking in the same way...I am buying an OS from them and if i want to use that OS to watch DVD's then its not their concern. They don't need to help me do it but actually hindering me doing it is just nasty. Netgear did the same thing with their WiFi cards.... they deliberatly locked the drivers needed to use ndiswrapper or driverloader in files you needed Windows to extract... not wine, not cab-extract but a real windows. They must have put quite a bit of effort into stopping the drivers being extracted by other means and its just plain wrong, if I buy their product how I use it is up to me! If its illegal then its up to the law, its certainly not up to Netgear!

 

The underlying issue here is the policy of making it as difficult as possible. Its simply not their business and the bottom line is the attempt to make it difficult not providing the tools to do it.

 

If they put it on the packaging I guess that's a grey area but neither the Xbox nor my netgear card did... hey I can expect to have work to get linux on the xbox and the netgear working under linux but actually trying to scupper my efforts by actively making it as hard as possible is dishonest.

 

I might concede the ubuntu problem is out of ignorance and a grey area but it is also linked to their decision not to keep source compatibility with Debian. This in itself is a mean trick so the "But Ubuntu bug fixes can be used by Debian" arguament fails on the same arguament.

Yes Debian devs could use the bug fixes... but by the time they have backed out the "Ubuntuisation" of the source its pretty near useless, they are better simply maintaining their own package. They can't just use it because its deps are all on specific Ubuntu packages... In the end its probably no easier for a Debian developer to use Ubuntu bug fixes than one from FreeBSD... they can see specific bugs and if its a simple syntax problem correct one line but if its more than that and involves libs then its all but useless.

 

This merits at least a guilty though not caring... IMHO if not as bad as the Suse thing or the XBOX ...

 

edits:

This is written btw in the light of the Groklaw article posted above...

Is Linspire, Freespire any worse?

I think my original post made it clear they are different ...

More importantly is the issue of ALL LINUX distro's and their relationship... (aka your genology file)

You have to balance the binary driver stuff in FreeSpire with maintaining Debian binary and source compatibility.

You must also balance the We can't make Debian friendly without creating source incompatibility and sodo stuff as Ubuntu claims since Linspire seems to have managed and specifically FreeSpire will force a non-root account at install.

Do I see FreeSpire damaging Debian? No

Do I see Ubuntu damaging Debian ? Yes already....

 

Is Debian important? I believe so in the same way as slackware and gentoo (ok not forgetting arch) are.

But Debian and Slackware especially....

Did Suse hurt slackware? I think it did and the relationship was more parasitic than symboitic but I guess it was a drift over time....and it had a decent aim to startoff with

Did Mandriva hurt RH? probably but RH pretty much deserved it. especially by the RH7 release they totally messed up and because of the intial goal of mandriva was a good goal and didn't aim to start off by hurting RH specifically just getting round the i386 packages and lack of KDE over a stupid issue RH had with KDE.

Ubuntu started off to be incompatible with Debian, it wasn't an accident or just divergence over time. yes it adds a lot for the noobie but at a cost.

 

The bottom line is really the thing distro's seem to have the most trouble with which is gratitude for standing on the shoulders of giants in order to get where they are.

Like your post on KDE and linus... does it matter?

Well its a matter of choice BUT linus deserves recognition as a figurehead, if he was given a Nobel prize it wouldn't be for him but for all the developers who had chipped in their code.

It doesn't hurt to be humble....

 

As you know anyone can make a distro, we discussed this a long time ago.... but not everyone can make a distro for a good reason.

If you look at Gentoo/arch they both started for a good reason, Mandrake and KDE was a good reason but that was a fork....or at least a extension that developed into a port.

 

Ubuntu have a good reason in making linux accessible BUT they didn't need to fork and just as today most Suse users don't thank Volkerding for single handedly putting the base of Suse together neither will Ubuntu users respect the Debian charter.

 

This can be seen a lot in the hostility of Gentoo devs to Vidalinux ... etc.

[tyme]

Actually Suse deliberately compile Xine so it can't use libdvdcss even if you install it. I think that is the worst case.

never knew that. are you saying it's impossible to play encoded dvd's in suse? because i know some users of suse...and i'm pretty sure they can play dvds.

Ubuntu do something very strange with amorok and the libjack stuff which is more down to them being incompatible with Debian repo's than anything else ...

why would jack be used for amarok?

 

Do I see Ubuntu damaging Debian ? Yes already....

I don't see how. Ubuntu is a different distribution, with different aims, and nothing they do is sent back upstream to Debian.

[Gowator]

Actually Suse deliberately compile Xine so it can't use libdvdcss even if you install it. I think that is the worst case.

never knew that. are you saying it's impossible to play encoded dvd's in suse? because i know some users of suse...and i'm pretty sure they can play dvds.

Nope Im saying its impossible to play encrypted DVD's with the supplied xine because its hacked by Suse.

You can play unencrypted ones its the xine ability to use libdvdcss that's crippled.

I did warn you its hard to believe .. I certainly found it so for the 30 minutes it took me to bin the newly bought suse boxset.. yes I actually paid but I found this so disgusting I will never ever use suse through choice.

 

 

Follow the linky I posted... search the Suse forums...

 

Like i say leaving out libdvdcss is a compromise for the user and legality but deliberatly hacking Xine is just sick. You need to be seriously screwed up to deliberatly add someone elses work like Xine and then disable one of its primary features. This is the sort of thing I hate most is STEALING other peoples work and deliberatly breaking it. It goes against the whole morality of the GPL...

 

Why do I call it stealing....becuase its deliberatly taking some software there for everyone and breaking it deliberatly.

What does this do for Xine?

basically it develops a whole load of users who's impression is Xine is crap and can't play DVD's ... it gives it a very bad press amongst the type of Suse user who doesn't know much about linux (and there are a lot of them) because its a good distro for someone who doesn't like having to learn details (Im not saying you can't but its made to be good for this kind of user)

 

But they get that impression for all the wrong reasons! Personally I find mplayer codec's better especially on win32codecs but that is my impression based on trying whereas someone who tries Xine in suse then discovers they can use mplayer instead has found it for the wrong reason...

I use xine extensively over mplayer because it works with drag 'n' drop for konqueror ... so its easier to build a playlist but at least its objective...

You can even find a non crippled 3rd party Xine or compile from source but that's not what most users do.

 

In the end what I don't like is the developers of Xine have produced some good software and people are being given a bad impression of good software.

 

why would jack be used for amarok?

Ask the devels? buty basically the library is used to extract the mp3 signature to look it up in musicbrainz and then find the covers...

Do I see Ubuntu damaging Debian ? Yes already....

 

I don't see how. Ubuntu is a different distribution, with different aims, and nothing they do is sent back upstream to Debian.

I don't think that will be answered one way or the other... but that is exactly the tone of the Groklaw attack on FreeSpire. Did you read the link?

As I mentioned I posted this in the context of that : Its like will binary drivers stop GPL drivers being developed (one of his main arguaments) ...

I see Ubuntu as taking developers from Debian ... that I beleive harms Debian...

read what I wrote in the context of the rest.

 

I am explaining the difference between a fork like Ubuntu and a Debian+ like Mephis/Kantotix and even now FreeSpire.

Read the Cathedral and the Bazaar by Erik S Raymond (avaiable for free download ona google or search engine of your choice.) he makes a long argument about forks and how they are bad for openSource unless done wth a real reason. (Its a good read anyway quite apart from this topic)

Edited April 25, 2006 by Gowator

[tyme]

This is the sort of thing I hate most is STEALING other peoples work and deliberatly breaking it. It goes against the whole morality of the GPL...

As long as they provide the source of their modifications it's completely permissable and supported by the rights outlined in the GPL. The GPL is about choice, and SuSe has the right to choose to modify the code. It may not be right of them, I'll give you that, but still, they are allowed to. Besides, a simple google search turned up this article with easy-to-follow directions how to get get it working.

 

All I'm saying is SuSe/Novell has the right to distribute what they want, how they feel it need to be configured within the GPL - and they are doing that. You may have an opinion otherwise, but the GPL allows it - for a reason, and that reason is choice.

[Gowator]

Good balanced summary here:

 

http://www.desktoplinux.com/articles/AT7106426180.html

 

On the above from tyme...

I think this is the point, I don't think its right to hack Xine ...at least not to restrict its functionaility but it is legal.

 

However I don't think the GPL and FSF as an organisation are interested in the legal aspect which is more of a necassary evil to them. i think they are more interested in opensource software and sharing and the GPL is a tool to help that but its not why they do what they do.

 

From my view the FSF is more an ideology and one whihc depends on people doing the right thing more than legal recourse... This is why for instance people should care about unnecassary forks ... The FSF is all about sharing not doing your own thing ....

 

imagine you are quing for the cinema and someone comes up and says the ticket office is open round the corner .. half the people run off and find the other ticket office is still closed and the guy has taken your place.

Strictly speaking I guess its legal and if you tried to take his place back who knows what would be the result. I think forks are like this, they distract the community into something "new" which might not be new at all and just a ploy to steal users.